respect for the dead?

this has come up a few times recently, but most specifically with Jackson's death. How much "respect" do we owe to the dead?

For instance there was a former NT minster who died a couple of years ago. Now there is no dought that he gave alot to the territory BUT police we in the proccess of charging him with a series of rapes when he died. The goverment HAD planned to give him a state funeral but canceled it after complaints from the victoms. Then there is the jackson issue, an alleged peadophile and yet now that hes dead anyone who points that out is critized.

I mean when osama dies are we all going to be expected to say "what a great man, did alot for the community" ect ect.

So what, the persons dead, that doesnt errase the pain they caused to other people and this "just cellebrate what they did right" has the potentual to actually INCREASE there pain as they watch someone who hurt them showered with honors from the public (and goverments, public figures ect)

 

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If we leave it long enough, yes.

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How many threads have we had over the years about "Hitler did great things"?

 

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true but no one is critisied for saying that hitler was an evil fuck either. What im talking about is the attitude that just because the perpitrator is dead there actions some how become behond reproch

 

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He was never convicted of the crime was he? He was given a trial and found not guilty so how do you even say "alleged" when he was found innocent? :shrug:

 

Ah got you.
Yes there is the attitude of "don't speak ill of the dead" (I think that remark was actually posted in one of the Jackson threads).
It does seem to be prevalent (except among those who knew the dead best - go to any funeral and listen to the closest relatives talking!), but I suppose it's a sort of "all or nothing" thing.
If the deceased was generally good then people hold them up as examples, likewise if they were generally bad they're vilified.

Look at all the crap over Diana.
Tributes, songs written, huge crowds of weeping mourners... for what?
Somebody we'd never even heard of until she married a guy who'd told her before the wedding he was going to to cheat on her.
How dumb is that?
Diana was famous (and popular) because she was the fairy tale rags to riches (although her rags were well out of the price range of the majority of people who "adored" her).
And then what did she do?
Publicised a couple of charities and got famous for being photographed with various lovers.

But she REALLY REALLY was lovely and we all worshipped her.

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Meh, I got gasps of horrified disbelief while at university, for referring to her as "Dead Spice"...

 

I don't go out of my way to talk bad about people who have just died, out of respect for those they recently left behind. When my grandfather died, I didn't care one iota, but to call him a good for nothing drunk (which he was) to my grandmother's face only days after it happened, well that would be rude, disrespectful and inappropriate.

 

I agree. An asshole is an asshole regardless if their dead but it does not need to be mentioned to others who cared for that person deeply.

 

Well, seeing as we're talking about dead people we can respect (or not) let's put it another way;

If you had access to a time machine, which historical figure would you go back to visit, to sit down and have a coffee with them and a talk?

You can have respect for people, for their abilities and/or what they accomplished, but let's face it--you're unlikely to go back and have a chat with Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun; you might come back alive if they're in a good mood that day, but it's not a given.

 

I would like to have a conversation with Gandhi...

 

Rags to riches? Hell she had more royalty running through her veins than the Windsor's. She was bloody filthy rich. And a royal pain in the ass (no pun intended).

Did you hear the one about all the calories she was saving for world hunger?

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You did notice my comment about her rags being out of most people's price range?
She was "rags to riches" in that she was taken from complete obscurity to world recognition.
Had you ever heard of her until Big Ears decided she was the one?
Had she ever registered on the "Celebrity Radar" until then?

 

Confucius

Confucius (Chinese: pinyin: Kǒng Fūzǐ; Wade-Giles: K'ung-fu-tzu), lit. "Master Kong," (traditionally September 28, 551 BC – 479 BC) was a Chinese thinker and social philosopher, whose teachings and philosophy have deeply influenced Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese and Vietnamese thought and life.

His philosophy emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity. These values gained prominence in China over other doctrines, such as Legalism or Taoism during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD). Confucius' thoughts have been developed into a system of philosophy known as Confucianism . It was introduced to Europe by the Jesuit Matteo Ricci, who was the first to Latinise the name as "Confucius."

 

No more or less than we had for them alive.

MJ was a creepy pop star. I was listening to a notable black man trying to eulogize him and it basically boiled down to, he could have been one of the most notable black men of his generation except he obviously didn't want to be a black man and creeps every one out. A sentiment I have to agree with.

But Walter Cronkite died recently and there is a mind whose loss I miss. Highly respected by friend and foe for not only his reporting, but the integrity and impartiality by which he delivered it. Still the standard by which news anchors in the US are measured.

 

I generally don't like 'to speak ill of the dead' because I feel that these people are in some way beyond our judgement. Moreover, they have no way of defending themselves and their actions against our wrongly or even rightly-given criticisms.
This does not mean, however, that I like to canonise every notable person the moment they die. Nor do I refrain from commenting on the lives of historical figures. I merely think that, especially for the recently dispatched, we should show a little respect. After all, loved ones have been left behind that find such comments deeply upsetting - and rightly so.

 

-=-

No, not rightly so, usually. The "loved ones" go to the funeral & go thru the motions because they've been conditioned to do so and/or they can't handle the truth. So they pretend pretentiously & insist everyone does so. The "loved ones" have little or no respect for others, insisting on lies.
"Don't speak ill of the dead", just 1 of many nonsense expressions passed on without much thought.

 

Grief is a façade? If you say so.

 

-=-

I said so within the context of the OP, the thread & your comments just before mine.
IOW, I didn't say grief is always or usually a facade but that it often is in cases when the issue of the OP comes up.
Tho I should've double spaced before

"Don't speak ill of the dead", just 1 of many nonsense expressions passed on without much thought.

because that stands on its own.

 

Just as much as you'd owe anyone who could not defend themselves.

 

Well the OP only specifically mentioned Michael Jackson, and my comments were generally made about all dead people. So I don't understand where you're going with that.

However, even if the deceased were famous, I don't see why loved-ones can only be 'going through the motions' and NOT showing genuine emotion. Even fans deserve more credit than you give them. Sure, there may be an element of me-too-ism involved, but I for one was pretty upset when I heard MJ had died.

 

Asguard...
Watch this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLVsIpejFgM

Apparently there's a line. Moderately annoying people, (tax fraud, white collar/ "soft crimes"), are apparently forgotten.. To what extent.. It depends..