religious experiences are closely associated to religious and cultural expectations. girls in mexico have visions of the virgin mary, not of the indian goddess kali. american indians on their vision quest see visions of north american animals not of african ones. Thus it appears that religious experiences, no matter how intense, are subject to the cultural and religious beliefs of the person to whom they occur. this is why the christian god never appears to the muslim, no matter how devoutly religious the muslim may be, or vice versa. these ? experiences always happens to a person, who has a deep set interpretive framework through which he or she views the world. Thus, religion and religious experiences are relative to your enviroment. could you religious people explain why?, you dont see allah or krishna etc instead of jesus/god. and try explaining it to yourself first, (especially woody) using reason, logic, and intellect. but then again, who am I kidding, asking the religious to reason.
Atheism is probably a result of environment too. I was born in a country where I stood a nearly 50/50% chance of being atheist. If I was born in Alabama, I would probably be a gay hating racist who believes the Bible is literal. Luckily I wasn't though.
luckily, indeed kenny Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! i am deeply spiritual. however, i am skeptical of those who see visions of "mary" or "kali" or whoever. most often, those folks are just looking for attention: "LOOK! LOOK! IM DEVOUT TOO!!!" know what i mean?
No - returning to atheism is the result of thinking for yourself about religion and God in a rational way and thereby rejecting belief in God. Unless you are suggesting that only certain environments enable people to think rationally? You were born atheist. Everyone is born atheist. Noone is born with a pre-existing belief in God. Religion is a result of the environment, turning the naturally atheist population into believers of a "thing" for which no evidence exists.
THIS is a VERY interesting thred. hope you'll dont cop out then, as we explore about this... yes, also NDEs. its been shown that people brought up wit Western religions and ideals may experience he 'classic' tunnel and light at end and meeting @Jesus' 'angels' and have the 'review' of one's life etc but i have also read of people, ay in Asia, who have experience of their mythial character 'Lord of Death', and in comparsion theirexperiences seem quite grim....oth ultures and traditions may experience other stuff so what does this tell us. all tis has fascinated me for a while i first of ll escept that there is a dimension where we may experience profound visions and experiences. some have called it the Imaginal Realm dont care if yo are religious or the strongest athiest, i can gurantee you that given the right set and setting, and being blindfolded an d/or having music played in a dark room whilst hving ingested psychedelic you also would have experiences. Dr Stanisla Grof --a main consciousness researcher has had many dealings with athiest experiencers ho HAVE had religious experiences. so dont go thinking u are immune, and are now 'completely rational/logical'....yo aint! you only THINK you are BUT, what does this dimension mean. whee people experiences subjectively. this is what i find the most fascinating. mainly because it involves us exploring what consciousness is. and this question is central for philosophy and science right now, big time right. say someone who is from the Christian religion. she pays and has a vision of an angel who helps heal her,or a familiy member. what do you th athiest say about such an occurance? over to you
Why do you accept this? Where is your evidence for this "dimension", beyond mere subjectivity? Of course you have "experiences". Chemical imbalances, whether generated naturally (e.g. through increased levels of adrenalin, endorphines etc) or artificially through taking (ingesting, smoking, drinking etc) very often affect the way the brain works, leading to these "experiences". When I drink large quantities of alcohol - my vision gets distorted - the room seems to spin. This is SUBJECTIVE. The room is NOT spinning - merely the visual part of my brain is not working in the normal way due to the chemical imbalance caused by the excessive quantity of alcohol. I don't deny that people have "experiences" - and these can often include elements that could be deemed religious in nature (seeing angels, etc) - but these are merely subjective (inside the head) and irrelevant to external reality. True - the subconscious especially is a fascinating subject - but do not confuse a subjective experience, no matter what it entails, with reality. Someone may think they are "seeing things" - even religious things - and interpret them as they want to - i.e. subjectively. But reality is very different. "Vision of an angel"? If asleep then this is merely a dream; the subconscious bringing out an image that the person may need to help them. The angel healing someone? Please - all recoveries are driven through either chemical, psychological or biological processes. There is no evidence that any have been driven by "visions", by "God", by anything other than the body's own self-healing abilities (with psychology helping in this) and the "power" of medicine. The only religious element is the subjectivity with which one sees the events. The reality may be hard and cold - but it is reality.
I think atheism is as much to do with surroundings as religion is. Where you are born determines the likelihood of you being atheist, wether you are born atheist or not. I live in a pretty secular country, but went to religious schooling and learned not to question the faith that was being forced on me - And I didn't question it until I was around 11. So I can understand why bible states and the middle east are pretty stupid that way given the severity of the religion there.
atheism cant be a result of the environment, because their environment is the whole world, and therefore we all start with the same mind set, until some fundi twat indoctrinates you, the young mind is so vulnerable, you could tell a child the skies pink with purple polka dots and they believe it to be true, because an authority figure told them so. my children are always told when they ask a question, an answer and a follow on statement "but dont take my word for it I could be wrong check it out and decide for yourself". however we're going of topic. there are thousands of visionarys in lunatic asylums, so what is the difference with a religious vision and a lunatics one?
I have read that some people during NDEs will actually encounter a religious figure not of their own faith. A Christian meets Buddha, etc.
devil: how do we know which vision is which, please define the difference. ie:define a true vision? because the dictionary defines it as "A mental image produced by the imagination. The mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being." thanks giamo: you are kidding ar'nt you.
Do they actually still call them "lunatic asylums"? Honestly, most people who have had (or claim to have had) a religious vision derive some symbolic meaning or purpose behind it, whether they actually understand the "message" in it, or are just ascribing that meaning as best they can determine it. It can be life changing. Someone may say, "I've finally found my purpose in life!" Or something similar. It is generally coherent, or at least the experiencer sees it that way. And a vision does not necessarily have to be an actual visualization. Religious experiences can also be fortuitous occurences/"coincidences" that seem to defy the odds. These can also have meaning. Generally these don't happen continuously throughout the day. They may happen once or twice in a lifetime. Contrast that with someone who has visual or auditory disturbances on a regular basis. I heard of someone who hears music and other such stuff very strongly if he doesn't take medication. Many of these have no symbolic meaning to the people experiencing them. In the case of the person hearing music, it becomes a constant and unwanted burden, of no spiritual significance, but something to be avoided. Of course, the lines can be blurred between these two categories, but do you honestly not see the difference?
if your looking for a religious experience... try eating 7 to 10 grams of psycoldelic mushrooms... the red ones with the little white dots... there is much history regarding the use of mushrooms and religious visions.... much history... i dont recommend experimenting with mushrooms... but for those who already use them... it takes atleast 7 grams to cause such visions... i know. -MT
I assume you're talking to Giovanni Battista. Did you mean to put a question mark (?) at the end of that sentence? Or are you stating the facts. What am I kidding about? The spinning and puking, or Muslims encountering Jesus at the end of the tunnel? I have READ. I was merely regurgitating something I had read. How can I be kidding about something that I've not actually experienced, but only read about? I guess you'll have to find those experiencers and ask them. Or tell them. Whichever it was that you were doing.
http://www.marypages.com/ZeitoenEng.htm A rather famous (for that category of supernatural) incident where thousands of people witnessed a glowing figure that was taken to be Mary, appearing above a church in Egypt. Interesting that some people claimed not to have seen anything. There are photographs of the illuminated figure at the link.
Just for an incident of MANY people having a "vision". Not everyone saw the same thing. Some people apparently couldn't see it at all, as if it were selective (a characteristic noted in some UFO cases). This is reminiscent of Fatima, where only a handful of children could see the Lady. However the fact that many saw it and photographed it, dispels any notion of hallucinations.
how so, Giambattista, they could have all eaten the same substance. and as for children they dont come in to the equasion. they are far too easierly lead.
