UFP Fleet size and NCC Numbers.
[QUOTE] Post by [B]me[/B] in Halo vs Star Trek.
I could really go on all day. The entire argument for this silly idea is basically "the numbers go higher".
USS Galaxy's RN was NCC-70637.
Enterprise-D's RN was NCC-1701-D. It's obviously a special status, since it's obviously continuing the Enterprise lineage. It was commissioned in 2363.
USS Phoenix's RN was NCC-65420 and commissioned in 2363. It was a Nebula-class.
USS Sutherland's RN was NCC-72015.
The problem arises when you consider the issues in the context of how many ships the UFP supposedly built up to the 2370s if the sequential NCC idea is accurate. The NCC numbers only went up in the TNG era to the ~75,000 mark. What, prior to the TNG era they were building jack all starships and then all of a sudden it shoots up so the built almost 10% worth of every ship they built in history up to that point in the space of only four years?
Given what we saw in the Dominion War, I find 60,000 combat ships highly dubious. Looking over this it'd mean the Federation lost about 50,00 ships in a few years of war - the combined Dominion/Cardassian and Breen fleet was (IIRC 2375) 30,000 ships, and the Klingons/Romulans/UFP would have to be at least close to that number to stand a chance (making allowances for the fact that the majority of Dominion/Cardassian/Breen ships are individually smaller and weaker).
Same with USS Phoenix and USS Sutherland - 6,595 ships built in between 2363 and 2367? What's that, close to 9% of every ship built in Starfleet history? In four years? Its simply rubbish.
You're assuming they work a certain way, and that assumption is completely baseless. There's no reason to assume they mean anything at all. The fact that they merely go up proves zero.
Let us take, for example, the USS Thunderchild, NCC-63549:-
You think it means it's the 63,549th ship built since the beginning of when the Federation built starships.
It could easily mean the following:-
63rd production run (or whatever)
Or it could mean completely nothing at all. The possibilities are myriad.
Your arugment that each number is a distinct ship simply falls apart on examination.
Let's take the USS Voyager, NCC-74656. It was launched in 2371.
The USS Defiant, NCC-75633 (ex-Sao Paulo), was launched in 2376.
You're telling me, in the space of 5 years, Starfleet built 977 starships? When we know that it would've taken almost a year for Starfleet to recover from the loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359? What, their shipyard capacity went up by 10 times?
Or let's take a look at the USS Stargazer, NCC-2893. You know what the registry number of the USS Constellation was, i.e. the first of class? NCC-7100.
How about another one?
The USS Phoenix was commissioned in 2363. Its registry number is NCC-65420
USS Galaxy - the first of class - has the number NCC-70637. When was Enteprise-D - not the first of class - commissioned? 2363.
Do you see the problem? There is a difference of 5,217 between USS Phoenix and USS Galaxy. What, in between when USS Galaxy was commissioned and USS Phoenix was commissioned, a differnece that can be no more than one or three years at most, they built 5,000 ships?
Or USS Voyager (2371) and USS Phoenix (2363) also points out how absurd it is - in a space of eight years, they built almost 10,000 ships?
Your idea that the numbers are exactly sequential is hugely problematic.
So, 1,500 Klingon ships (the ships that can resist the Breen weapon) are outnumbered 20-to-1 against the combined fleet of the Dominion, Breen and Cardassians - i.e. 30,000 ships.
So basically, you are claiming that the UFP alone outnumbers the fleet of all three of the enemy powers. Even though we know from DS9 - The Pale Moonlight that the UFP needed the Romulans to join them with the Klingons just to be able to go on the offensive against just the Dominion and the Cardassians.
When It Rains occurs in 2375, Stardate unknown. The middle of the Dominion War.
The Breen have entered the war on the side of the Dominion and Cardassians, and the Klingons have by accident discovered a modification to their ships to prevent the Breen energy dampening weapon from being effective on them.
We learn two things from this episode.
First, we learn that at the Second Battle of Chin'toka, where the Klingon/Federation/Romulan fleet was soundly crushed, with only one ship surviving - that the combined strength of the allied fleet was 312 ships.
Interestingly, this indicates an average fleet size for each member of the alliance as around ~100 ships, which is in line with the strength of the ill-fated seventh fleet, which had a strength of 112 ships.
The more relevant aspect though is this exchange:-
Well, Gentlemen, it would seem
that the Klingon fleet is the
only thing standing between us
and the Dominion.
(under his breath)
What have we come to... ?
Martok shoots him a look
By tomorrow, we'll have eleven
hundred Klingon vessels ready for
With the Breen, the Cardassians
and the Jem'Hadar you're still
I'm aware of that, general. ”
Note this is the script, in the episode he says 1,500, but it doesn't matter to the point.
Obviously, the conclusion to draw is that in 2375, the combined Dominion/Cardassian/Breen fleet is roughly 30,000 ships, and for the sake of simplicity, 10,000 ships each, though we have no idea whether say the Dominion and Cardassians greatly outnumber the Breen. Whatever, it doesn't matter.
Obviously, the combined UFP/Klingon/Romulan fleet must be within this vicinity, and in terms of absolute numbers, likely has less. This is an obvious conclusion when one realises that the majority of the Dominion fleet are sub-200m 'fighters' that are no match, one for one, against the larger warships of the AQ powers, the UFP and Romulans especially. The Cardassian Galor / Keldon class warships aren't terribly impressive size / capability wise either. This is borne out by the battle in Sacrifice of Angels, where it was deemed viable to send ~600 Federation ships against a Dominion/Cardassian fleet of ~1,200.
So, basically to believe a 60,000 strong fleet, you expect people to believe that the UFP started the war with more ships than three other major powers?
Another example of why sequential NCC-numbers is bullshit - USS Valiant and USS Defiant. Defiant is NX-74205, Valiant is NCC-74210. A difference of only 5. And yet Valiant was launched in 2372, a full two years prior to Defiant (2370). It speaks for itself.
For another example, USS Phoenix and USS Enterprise-D were both commissioned the same year, 2363. USS Galaxy couldn't have been commissioned after Enterprise-D, it's the first of class, and certainly not enough to justify the difference of 5,217 between the NCC number of Phoenix and Galaxy- so what, we're supposed to believe 5,000 ships were built that year? All for a stupid idea for which there's no explicit evidence in the first place?
And risk war with the Romulans?
No, thank you. We're losing
enough good people as it is. The
last thing we need is a war on two
What we need is to bring the
Romulans into the war on our side.
With the combined forces of the
Federation, the Klingons and the
Romulans we could finally go on the
Conclusion: the Klingons and UFP alone are incapable of going on an offensive against just the Dominion and Cardassians. The Breen had not yet joined the war.
And there's this:-
“ FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
We will establish a new defense
perimeter along this line. With
less territory to defend, we can
concentrate our forces and hold
off any attack -- if the enemy
attacks at all.
The Federation is by its very
nature timid. When they see we've
pulled back, their first impulse
will be to leave us alone.
What about the Klingons and the
Everyone turns and looks at him -- the most junior
man in the room should keep his mouth shut at this
point. He tries to backtrack.
I meant no disrespect... I was
simply asking --
Without the Federation, the
others are no threat to us. ”
Conclusion: the Klingons and Romulans alone are no threat to the Dominion, Cardassians and Breen without the UFP, in the Dominion's opinion.
In other words, in order for the claim of 60,000 ships to be true, we must assume that:-
* At the start of the war the UFP had an overwhelming numerical advantage over the Dominion and Cardassians which was completely lost, i.e. the UFP lost around ~50,000 ships in between 2373 and 2375.
Clearly, this is nonsense. Its not borne out by any evidence in the show - it'd require the catastrophic loss of dozens fleets worth of ships, over and over again.[/QUOTE]
I will also go into firepower and warp speed later.
Edit: [QUOTE]SBC PoW in Halo vs Star Trek
Ok, first off I would like to apologize for what previous user of this account, my little brother, who has been using my computer without me knowing and also using my user name form SpaceBattles.com here at this site.
This is the thread that made me aware of what has been up to from SBC:
The thread was made by a memeber of SciForums.
Now given that my little brother has been copying the posts of SBer's I'll be giving the Seber's due credit since my brother has been trying to past it off as his own.
Thread: Was a recent SW vs ST thread at SBC (Forget name, was 50 pages). SBer: Leo 1. He is the one who refuted the NCC numbers and gave the planet hopping quotes.
I believe that takes care of it all. And I once again apologize for what my little brother has done here.[/QUOTE]