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[QUOTE=fedr808;2258919]That wasnt my point, the fact is that detonating a torpedo in random chaos voids will do about as much damage as detonating a torpedo in open space, nothing will happen.
The Q have control over their realm, that being the universe. The chaos warp is just a different realm (and im using realm just in place of dimension, universe, call it what you will). The Q have no power in the Warp and corrupted space. but the chaos gods have power over the universe.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the Q have power outside of the Universe... for they have watched our Universe being born. To them, the Trek universe is young and somewhat interesting... they have watched multiple universes and multiple multiverses... there was an episode of TNG where Q helped Picard save his timeline from himself, thus allowing mankind to crawl out of the primordial ooze :)
Q could just as easily snap his fingers and the Warp would cease to exist... unlike the Chaos Gods (Fernix anyone?) the Q don't need a mortal to do their bidding... they just go out and do it themselves
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[QUOTE=fedr808;2258667]
Im sorry but what would a torpedo do in the warp?
[/QUOTE]
i can't tell about the WH40K warp, but in trek, strong torpedo explosions mixed with unstable warp fields sometimes produce awckward space-time anomalies, like in "Yesterday's Enterprise" for example. also some forms of warp can cause space-time to colapse under some conditions (TNG and Voy).
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[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2259455]i can't tell about the WH40K warp, but in trek, strong torpedo explosions mixed with unstable warp fields sometimes produce awckward space-time anomalies, like in "Yesterday's Enterprise" for example. also some forms of warp can cause space-time to colapse under some conditions (TNG and Voy).[/QUOTE]
I know what you are saying.
The warp in ST is a means of transportation.
The warp in 40k is an actual dimension. It bears nothing in common with ST warp other than the name. It is where all chaos and evil resides in the universe, kinda like a pandora's box. Plague, war, greed, and lust, those are the four chaos gods (those arent the names, just what they represant, the name is some wierd geeky thing).
But because the warp exists as an entirely different dimension the Q have no power over it, and even if they did the four chaos gods could easily overpower them in their own home ground. And if anything those chaos gods would corrupt the Q.
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well the Q live in their own dimension too, the continuum if i'm not mistaking. but to calculate the outcome of a battle betwean gods i dare not. i think we might need a priest for that, not data analyst ;)
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[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2259631]well the Q live in their own dimension too, the continuum if i'm not mistaking. but to calculate the outcome of a battle betwean gods i dare not. i think we might need a priest for that, not data analyst ;)[/QUOTE]
fair enough.
To be honest, there is no clear cut figure for how much destructive power the weaponry has, typically people grade it based on damage to the surroundings.
And considering the damage is extraordinarily high even in comparison to the enterprise's phasers, we know that it must be a high figure. But there is no clear cut number for it.
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[QUOTE=fedr808;2259642]fair enough.
To be honest, there is no clear cut figure for how much destructive power the weaponry has, typically people grade it based on damage to the surroundings.
And considering the damage is extraordinarily high even in comparison to the enterprise's phasers, we know that it must be a high figure. But there is no clear cut number for it.[/QUOTE]
well even if my asumptions on the trek graviton based shields are corect and they are largely resistant to laser based weapons, WH40K surely has enough numbers to cause serious mayham. not to mention that since dedicated planetary shielding is not common in UFP so using high power lasers to melt the planet's crust is still a viable way of destroying your enemies. in other words, you may not be able to slam the door, but you can still demolish the house.
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[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2259963]well even if my asumptions on the trek graviton based shields are corect and they are largely resistant to laser based weapons, WH40K surely has enough numbers to cause serious mayham. not to mention that since dedicated planetary shielding is not common in UFP so using high power lasers to melt the planet's crust is still a viable way of destroying your enemies. in other words, you may not be able to slam the door, but you can still demolish the house.[/QUOTE]
I dunno... even without planetary shields, planetary defenses aren't something to be scoffed at, especially in the Sol system... Starbase 001 is pretty heavily armed and armored... over two dozen pulse phaser cannons, fifteen type-13 phaser arrays, and a myriad of torpedo launchers, with a compliment of a few thousand photon and quantum torpedoes. I mean... if you thought DS9 put out a lot of firepower, Starbase 001 and Federation HQ make it look like a childs popgun in comparison :D
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i'd excpect Sol (especially Earth) to be well defended after the Dominion war, but you can't expect all the systems to be defended like this, only the strategic ones (like Bajor, Antares, Sol). and even with these systems, pouring tens of thousands of ships into a single attack can still overwealm the defences. even in one shot one kill sence (which i extreamly unlikely) those numbers have enough time to cause heavy damage to civilian and industrial centers on the planet's surface.
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[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;2257589]Lol naw...the "shortest" long range of a photon torpedo is 300K km. Class 6 torpedoes have a range of 8 million km (referenced in VOY). And enough photorps will obliterate a planetary surface (referenced in DS9).[/QUOTE]
Yes enough can obliterate a planetary surface, but as aha Enterprise D carries better torpedoes in the hundreds and it would take ALL of them to blow aaprt a 5km diameter hollow rock, your basically looking at Millions of torpedoes for an earth sized planet.
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we could discus this on multiple levels, but the shortest answer would be:
why do you think E-D has stronger torpedoes the Voyager or Defiant? they are far more advanced vessels after all and if we specify the episode "Pegasus" it is aperantly before DS9 Defiant and Voyager in choronological order, so during the Dominion War even the GCSs might have been refited with new torpedoes.
besides, there is at least one confirmed sighting of a E-D torpedo being stronger then what the destruction of the said asteroid would imply.
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[QUOTE=kustomrides;2258479][QUOTE=fedr808;2254278][QUOTE=150dpi;2254273]
The problem here is that the SW advocates are cherry picking which parts of the ST universe they must remove in order to "win."[/quote]
No, as you'll notice I am using ONLY the Empire as on the SW side, why becuase i am playing the sides as they would act. Now you want to add Species 8472, fne we add the Vong and the Ssiru, a the Hapans, and the Hives.....
I was just trying to be reasonabel here, and go by how the species and cultures would actually react.
[QUOTE]Fine. Take out the spooky deities and entities and whatnot. But make it a two-way street. That means SW loses "The Force." Which is just as much as deus ex machina as is "Q".[/QUOTE]
Actually, incorrect as the Force is not a deus ex machina, unless you use beings liek the Ang-Ti monks, the Staff of Shadows, or similiar omnipotent beings. SW has MANY more omnipotent beings than ST does, i was simply removing them from both sides as they are bascially not what a war is about.
[QUOTE]And I suppose you want to remove ST's abilities to travel back in time? Of course you do. You haven't a Wombat's chance under Luke's eye if ST can travel back in time and prevent the Emperor's parents from doing the nasty in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Actually only one ST crew had an even halfway relaible method of timetravels and even that was 50-50 shot in the dark of dying. Only ONE being could perform the proper calculations. Plus remember you cannot change the past as your reasons for going back and changing it are gone thus you never did it. Temporal Mechnaics is a real biatch.
[QUOTE]Oh, and you want there to be tension between Species 8472 and the Borg, yet allow the Jedi and the Sith to share warm showers together?[/QUOTE]
Didn;t even think the Jedi and Sith would work together. Of course some have when it came to fighting a common enemy. Witness how Sidious used the Jedi order to do his bidding for a decades. However like i said I was merely going Empire verses the races of the galaxy that could put up even token resistance.
[quote]Are there any other conditions you wish to place on the scenario in order to support your conclusion that the SW universe would win against the ST universe? Perhaps you should just tick off the things that the Star Trek Universe simply must, in the name of keeing this thread alive, do without. Tribbles, Horta, Harry Mudd, Romulan Ale, Crystaline Entity, Doomsday Machine, transporters ... oh my, we simply can't have THOSE things.
Really.[/QUOTE]
Hey, it's your side trying to say if it isn't in the movie forget it, despite the Lucasfilm;s polocy on canon. And for everything left out of ST, SW has left out a more numerous direct version. With the Q lefts out we left out the staff of shodows, the Aing ti monks, and manm
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[QUOTE=150dpi;2258724]+11111111
of course, they would argue that their Turbo Lasers can destroy Q with 10000000000000 x 10000000 petawatts of power... ;)[/QUOTE]
you don't need a turbolaser to destroy the Q. They can be as easily killed as humans all you have to use are q weapons. as seen in Voyager. and if you get only one Q on your side he can bring you in a alternative dimension so you can obtain en use those weapons like a standard gun.
Or just manipulate them into a civil war. and let them do the fighting themselfs.
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[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2260413]i'd excpect Sol (especially Earth) to be well defended after the Dominion war, but you can't expect all the systems to be defended like this, only the strategic ones (like Bajor, Antares, Sol). and even with these systems, pouring tens of thousands of ships into a single attack can still overwealm the defences. even in one shot one kill sence (which i extreamly unlikely) those numbers have enough time to cause heavy damage to civilian and industrial centers on the planet's surface.[/QUOTE]
you don't need to blow up earth itself. in my opinion in advanced races like in SW and even Stargate. they would be able to give jupiter a jumpstar becoming a sun. bye bye solarsystem :D
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[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;2257589]Lol naw...the "shortest" long range of a photon torpedo is 300K km. Class 6 torpedoes have a range of 8 million km (referenced in VOY). And enough photorps will obliterate a planetary surface (referenced in DS9).[/QUOTE]
when you are thinking of obliterating a planetary surface it doesn't always mean your weapons have to be enormously powerfull. If you take a planet like our own earth. you can target some keyarea's and let the planet do the rest.
ofcourse when you are looking at a planet with no seismic activity your weapons will indeed need to be much more powerfull.
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[QUOTE=fedr808;2256519]Yah.
The idea behind ablative armor is that it spreads the destructive power over a broad area instead of absorbing it in an area the size of a square foot.
But if it were to face off against the firepower of a battlebarge it can spread the damage all it likes, but when that amount of weaponry hits it, it will still fail after a while.[/QUOTE]
you have a point here. any type of shielding has his upperlimit of damage it can take before running out of energy of just simply overload distroying itself.
all trekkies think that because in TNG they laugh at lasers against their shields that they are laser resistant but they seem to forget (willingly or not) that they we're facing 1 ship from a less develloped race. If they would be hit by thousand of lasers simultaniously (as would be happening when facing SW and your WH40k) those shields would be dropping rather fastly.
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[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;2257589]Lol naw...the "shortest" long range of a photon torpedo is 300K km. Class 6 torpedoes have a range of 8 million km (referenced in VOY). And enough photorps will obliterate a planetary surface (referenced in DS9).[/QUOTE]
8 million km. pffffffffff. even in our time we have sent sateliets way beyond that point. Hell our tiny planet is almost 150 million km from the sun.
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[QUOTE=Lord Vasago;2260550]you have a point here. any type of shielding has his upperlimit of damage it can take before running out of energy of just simply overload distroying itself.
all trekkies think that because in TNG they laugh at lasers against their shields that they are laser resistant but they seem to forget (willingly or not) that they we're facing 1 ship from a less develloped race. If they would be hit by thousand of lasers simultaniously (as would be happening when facing SW and your WH40k) those shields would be dropping rather fastly.[/QUOTE]
even if the shields are as i say imune to conventional lasers, they would still fail because of exhaustion or generator failure or something similar, no question about that.
on a side note, i just saw the new ST movie........and i weep. ST has just beat SW in..... sorry SW does deserve to be insulted by comparing it with this contraption. ST has just turned into LOST :bawl: . i would not be surprised if "the island starts sinking even when the ocean is gone". i mean common , i 've seen plot devices, but this is too much. trek is turning into its grave....
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Basically. Im not even argueing for the whole of wh40k. Just the space marines.
They are a tiny race, and are genetically mutated or engineered humans that serve as mankinds elite protectors.
But they are the greatest warriors to grace either eniverse.
Eight feet tall, full adamentium power armor, standard, which can get hit by some of the heaviest weaponry imaginable and shrug it off. Super strength, super speed, they can survive in space, and any wound they get heals instantly. They are incredibly powerful, a single marine can take on dozens of enemies and come out on top.
They have a total of 39,000 warships, from small 2 km long frigates, to 8 km battlebarges.
Each ships has dozens and maybe heven hundreds of weapons batteries.
And even if that werent enough to destroy a starbase. We would simply ram your starbase. First off our shields are just as powerful, so when both our shields fail, we win. The battlebarge will hit your hull full speed, and dozens of feet of adamentium forward armor would protect the battlebarge through the collision. But as we all know fed ships have very little in the way of armoring.
Im willing to bet that after a while, the collision will split the starbase in half.
Once that happens, we will just land space marines on earth and take over the planet in force.
One more gift of the space marine is immortality, sure they can be killed, but they will not die of natural causes, that means the average marine is around a century in age or older. And there are even some dreadnaughts (basically a heqavily wounded marine near death placed in a cybor-organic suit 24 feet high) are tens of thousands of years old. Im willing to bet any amount of money that the space marines are far more battlehardened, far more experianced, far more tactically adept than anything the feds can through at them.
And this isn't even including the millions of other ships of the other dozen or so various races of WH40k. Just the imperial guard has hundreds of thousands of ships, some even larger than the battle barges.
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[QUOTE=TW Scott;2260496]Yes enough can obliterate a planetary surface, but as aha Enterprise D carries better torpedoes in the hundreds and it would take ALL of them to blow aaprt a 5km diameter hollow rock, your basically looking at Millions of torpedoes for an earth sized planet.[/QUOTE]
Listen, you keep misquoting an episode.
Riker says "it'll take our full complement of photon torpedoes..." blah blah blah, in wanting to destroy an asteroid big enough for the Enterprise to fly into...indeed big enough to dwarf a Warbird. The asteroid was as large as a small planet.
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[QUOTE=Lord Vasago;2260552]8 million km. pffffffffff. even in our time we have sent sateliets way beyond that point. Hell our tiny planet is almost 150 million km from the sun.[/QUOTE]
We were talking about weapons and targeting distance. Not merely floating satellites.
