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1,blasters ARE energy weapons and borg shields WILL become immune to them and lightsabers after the first few drones get killed.
2. trooper vs borg,1 on 1 the trooper wins the battle but is assmilated in the process,the borg wins the war.
3.jedi vs borg,jedi all the way
4,st would not let someone die because they need new lungs,thats just stupid,st has dozens of organ replacements and replicated bio materials,new lungs would be easy.
5. increasing shield intensity is not the same as changing frequency,st shields span several energy spectrums,and each spectrum can be modulated to diffrent frequencies. sw has not shown the ability to modulate imperial ship shielding to diffrent frequencies. and it doesnt matter anyway,transdimensional shields,and dominion spies will be enough to counter an imperial attack.nothing so far has stopped transdimensional transporters.
6. some species in sw are immune to force powers,right? then why would force power even work on aliens from another galaxy?vulcans,betazoids,and the thousands of other mental power races might be immune to jedi mind tricks.after all,several species can manipulate others with mind powers,it stands to reason that they would be immune to mind tricks.and then sw cant ''trick''sf into a false alliance.
7. mydoclordians could be removed with transporter bio filters,but jedi may be able to counter a transporter beam[some genetic enginered soldier could break transporter beams].
but if st gets a lock that jedi loses his force powers.also,his lightsaber will be rendered useless,along with any other weapons.
8. if lightsabers can be modulated to a diffrent frequency,then they wont be able to stop phaser fire until they know the phasers freq. and since the feds have modulating phase rifles to kill borg,the jedi are put at a disadvantage in ground battles over distance,especialy if their force powers dont work on st galaxy aliens.
9.the xindi super weapon could destroy a planet in one blast,so sf does have the capability to build giant weapons that can counter sw fleet ships.but they would not be able to build them until after sw has decimated most of the alpha quad. but like i said,sw will win the first battles,but the st resistance will destroy them and win the war.
10. durasteel and tritanium are similar in strength,but that does not make them the same material. maybe durasteel is extremly voulnerable to haveing its moluculer bonds ripped apart by phasers,but withstands great against turbolasers.
does any one know how stable the molocular bonds are in comparison?
11. regardless of what ''others'' say,anything licensensed by paramount is canon. before gene died it was what ever he said was canon,but after he died it became whatever paramount licensed as offcial st. youll hear alot of crap about how only shows and movies are canon,but no one cares what some assistant producer thinks about something he doesnt own.games ARE canon,but the movies and shows outrank games and books .so if there is a descepency between a show and a game,then the show wins,and if its a movie vs a show,they movie wins.
12.FEAR THE BORG-MINION.
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-sigh-
And again, from a post I made earlier...
[quote]To put an end to the "what is ST canon" tangent, this is straight from the Startrek.com...
[quote]
[b]How do the Star Trek novels and comic books fit into the Star Trek universe? What is considered Star Trek "canon"?[/b]
As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.
There are only a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)[/quote]
[url]http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/help/faqs/faq/676.html[/url]
As one can see, [i]only[/i] the liveaction movies and series are canonical.
An extended discussion on the subject maybe found [URL=http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/canon.htm]here[/URL].[/quote]
Essentially, in ST nothing is canon unless confirmed by the live action shows or movies. In SW everything is canon unless contradicted by higher canon.
EDIT: I should add that game statistics are highly suspect (and should be ignored) since such things are necessarily modified for gameplay purposes.
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[QUOTE=TW Scott]The computer game is based off the Star Fleet Battles strategy game which is VERY CANON. A Star Fleet vessels sensors are good, true, but not omniscient, by any stretch of the term.[/QUOTE]
hi, my first post (mainly just to let ya know about SFB)
SFB, starfleet battles, is not cannon. It has never been approved as such by paramont. SFC, a computer game based on SFB, has rights to the Star trek universe, but only as far as ships go. The game its self is still based on SFB. So in all reality the game really holds nothing in the Star trek universe, cause one its based on a non canon source and two, well its a game, a space naval simulation, designed to be balanced and fun, not to be entirely accurate to the show
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Well, if that isn't just a case of selective memory. The moment Paramount sanctioned Star Fleet Command and it's use of the Star Fleet Battles rules it became relevant to this discussion. To claim otherwise means that Star Wars can ignore any source of material we feel that makes our postion weaker.
As for the whole SW winning the first battles but not the war. The first battles would be every Federation world simultaneously. Then the Empire has all the Federation technology and the willingness to use it in ways the Feds never would. Thus the war would be theres, especially versus the borg-minion. HAHAHAHAHA
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Greetings TW Scott, good to see another new member around here.
I believe Star Trek uses a version of the Alcubiere Drive, so can't it be shut down with a focused tractor beam?
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[QUOTE=TW Scott]Well, if that isn't just a case of selective memory. The moment Paramount sanctioned Star Fleet Command and it's use of the Star Fleet Battles rules it became relevant to this discussion. To claim otherwise means that Star Wars can ignore any source of material we feel that makes our postion weaker.
As for the whole SW winning the first battles but not the war. The first battles would be every Federation world simultaneously. Then the Empire has all the Federation technology and the willingness to use it in ways the Feds never would. Thus the war would be theres, especially versus the borg-minion. HAHAHAHAHA[/QUOTE]
NO wrong, Paramount sanctioned the use of the Star trek models in the game, which is totaly different from it sactioining the rules as canon. interplay bought the rights to use that era of ships, and then bought the rights to use the SFB ruleset in the game. Totally different from what you are suggesting. Considering i actually play this game, and still play as well as being a part of said community for the past 6 years i would think i have an idear what is canon in said game and what isn't.
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If they sanction it at all, it fits as far as anyone should be concerned. The fact that you argue so vehemently against it make me wonder.
I personally love Star Trek, mostly TOS. You know the years before you could solve every problem with technology. I play Star Fleet battles and have the first and second edition rules. I play the Star Fleet Command games. I have read quite a bit of the books. So I have a better idea of what would be canon that you think.
If a Star Trek vessel can lose track of a vessel hiding in the magnetic poles of a planet, a possibly radioactive asteroid is going to have the same effect. If an asteroid is large enough it could be made of granite and still block sensors, mostly by absorbing the radiation waves they use to scan.
The fact that some game makers recognize this fact helps the position. If you can't see reason no amount of logical explanation is going to help.
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You claim to understand the game, you claim to know what would be canon in the sense. You forget that the game is constantly updated, you forget that the people updating the game did so for the purpose of balance, not for the purpose of the star trek canon. Further if you really really want to now add sfb to this arguemen then you yourself should know how badd ass some of its races are. Do we dare bring the andromedians and their displacement drive into the picture? or howabout some of the other fun things SFB has that aren't considered cannon by any light. Further i think one of the above posts makes a good point, that the animated series and comics aren't considered canon and for trek canon is what is seen on screen (strangly enough the animated series was on screen) which furthers the point that SFC as a game would be ruled out as non canon. or were you being selective about that?
edit:
btw the above post not only made a good point, it took a statement right of the official trek site... hmmmm now don't that say somthing
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[quote]If an asteroid is large enough it could be made of granite and still block sensors, mostly by absorbing the radiation waves they use to scan.[/quote]
So blocking sensors must be really easy if all it takes is granite.
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I wasn't going completely off the game. I was using instances where vessels have hidden from the Enterprise D by using the magnetic poles, the scanner distortion that asteroid feilds have generated, and the near sensor blindness that nebulas caused. All of these on screen and backed by the game. That exist on screen is canon. The game just gives us a scale to work from.
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if sw is so strong and can defete an entire galxay in minutes,then why did the empire lose to the rebels?their shouldnt even have been rebels in the timescale you set for sw winning a galactic war.
and sw cant destroy every planet in 5 minutes, and your assumption that st wont mount an offensive is laughable at best.
sw can not modulate shields,they have no ability to counter transporters. none,do you get that,you have zero ability to stop transporters !!! what do you not understand?
its the most powerful tool in either galaxy,and sw has absolutly no concept of it,no defence,and no counter for it.
and just becuase you can destroy a borg cube does not mean they havent beamed on board .
trooper vs borg remeber? trooper is assmilated after he kills the drone,borg wins.
useless sw fans all think they can just fly around blowing up planets and thats it,end of the war. except for the fact that sw doesnt have the ability to mount any offensive on that scale in that timeframe. even if every ship they had was dispatched to every m class planet and they all attacked at once[majicly without anyone in the entire galaxy noticing] they wouldnt be able to destroy them all,they dont have the physical numbers nessasry to destroy an entire galaxy all at once.especialy when they dont have transporters.
and the thousands of spacial and temperal anomolies will destroy dozens of sw vessels before they reach their targets.regardless of what you think, anomolies are a very big part of the st galaxy,and sw WILL have to deal with them exactly like st has to.and since sw is not as smart when it comes to overcoming obsticlse[blatently obvious from the movies,they didnt even know they were in a worm!!].
and there is still the matter of sw not being able to shoot at objects in ftl speeds. sure a few vessels can do it,but the majority can barely hit other giant targets with any accuracy.
from all accounts,st has better sensor tech.
all you sw dorks[ wars is for dorks,trek is for nerds]need to stop jerking yuour selves off with this fantasy that the empire could take over the entire st galaxy in 30 seconds without even a return shot fired at them.there is zero evidence to support that claim,if they could do that,they would have beat the rebels. so its obvious they cant wage war on that scale that fast.
how about citing EVIDENCE when you make a claim about sw abilities.
also,if its licenced by paramount as offcial trek,then its canon.
end of debate on it.and for further clarification the pecking order of st canon is...
1.movies
2.shows
3. books
4.cartoons
5.games
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No, the official ST site states that it is only movies and shows. End of story.
[quote=retard13] if sw is so strong and can defete an entire galxay in minutes,then why did the empire lose to the rebels?[/quote]
Because Vader betrayed his master and assassinated him. that's the only reason. Also, the rebels got lucky with the DS and DS2.
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us trekkies arent going to listen to what some sw fan thinks about what is canon and what is not.
Gene decides whats canon and whats not,but hes dead,so its paramount to decide,not some producer or sw fan or web site from a producer.
second,the empre still cant wage war on a galactic scale in minutes.
there is zero evidence to support that claim. the rebels won either throu luck or skill,either way the empire lost because they could not beat them.
besides,you have no counter for transporters,none,and no ability to modulate shields frequency makes it all the more devatsating.
st can just beam all the air out of a sw ship and thats the end of that battle.
also,st has tractor beams that can move small moons[episode masterpiece society],so the enterprise IS capable of moving a death star or any sw ship for that matter,after they beam the crew into space.or just beam a photon torp on board,either way sw cant stop it from happening.
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If you are that fucking retarded, that you cannot read the fucking statement, on the OFFICIAL SITE, then you are dumber than I thought.
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besids if you look at the order of what is canon youll see if their is a diffrence between tha game and the show the diffrence is from the show,not the game,so either way what is canon remains,your inablity to read a logical statement is indicative of sw.
second, if you cant counter transporters or modulate shields your all dead anyway.
st has weapons just as powerful[xindi super weapon,borg cube,phase canon] and more technologies then sw can even concieve of.
without transport sw is royaly screwed,unless they can find a way to stop transport this war will be over very fast.
you cant even shoot faster then light ,your screwed if a trek ship is going warp 1.1,turbolasers wont ever catch them.
how many ships could engage at ftl speeds?1 maybe two? and arent they destroyed?
how about addresing the arguments and not crying about what you consider canon.[even thou the movies/shows out rank the games if their is a discrepency,which is as canon as it gets].
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[QUOTE=TW Scott]I wasn't going completely off the game. I was using instances where vessels have hidden from the Enterprise D by using the magnetic poles, the scanner distortion that asteroid feilds have generated, and the near sensor blindness that nebulas caused. All of these on screen and backed by the game. That exist on screen is canon. The game just gives us a scale to work from.[/QUOTE]
No i agree with you the sensors have limitations, as you have pointed out, but the game does not give a scale, considering the game itself is not even to scale (compare the planets in sfc2 to the size of the ship). All i'm saying is the games don't count as canon, as the weren't designed really to what is on screen (else we would have a super deflector dish weapon ;)) but what would be balanced to keep gamers interested.
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[QUOTE=mars13]if sw is so strong and can defete an entire galxay in minutes,then why did the empire lose to the rebels?their shouldnt even have been rebels in the timescale you set for sw winning a galactic war.
and sw cant destroy every planet in 5 minutes, and your assumption that st wont mount an offensive is laughable at best.
sw can not modulate shields,they have no ability to counter transporters. none,do you get that,you have zero ability to stop transporters !!! what do you not understand?
its the most powerful tool in either galaxy,and sw has absolutly no concept of it,no defence,and no counter for it.
and just becuase you can destroy a borg cube does not mean they havent beamed on board .
trooper vs borg remeber? trooper is assmilated after he kills the drone,borg wins.
useless sw fans all think they can just fly around blowing up planets and thats it,end of the war. except for the fact that sw doesnt have the ability to mount any offensive on that scale in that timeframe. even if every ship they had was dispatched to every m class planet and they all attacked at once[majicly without anyone in the entire galaxy noticing] they wouldnt be able to destroy them all,they dont have the physical numbers nessasry to destroy an entire galaxy all at once.especialy when they dont have transporters.
and the thousands of spacial and temperal anomolies will destroy dozens of sw vessels before they reach their targets.regardless of what you think, anomolies are a very big part of the st galaxy,and sw WILL have to deal with them exactly like st has to.and since sw is not as smart when it comes to overcoming obsticlse[blatently obvious from the movies,they didnt even know they were in a worm!!].
and there is still the matter of sw not being able to shoot at objects in ftl speeds. sure a few vessels can do it,but the majority can barely hit other giant targets with any accuracy.
from all accounts,st has better sensor tech.
all you sw dorks[ wars is for dorks,trek is for nerds]need to stop jerking yuour selves off with this fantasy that the empire could take over the entire st galaxy in 30 seconds without even a return shot fired at them.there is zero evidence to support that claim,if they could do that,they would have beat the rebels. so its obvious they cant wage war on that scale that fast.
how about citing EVIDENCE when you make a claim about sw abilities.
also,if its licenced by paramount as offcial trek,then its canon.
end of debate on it.and for further clarification the pecking order of st canon is...
1.movies
2.shows
3. books
4.cartoons
5.games[/QUOTE]
So you admit that the games are canon now. just a few posts ago you were saying it was not canon. Seems that the trekkies are the ones confused. Which is bad as I am a bit of one myself. I would root for the federation but facts is facts.
As for the moidulating of shields only the gorssly anal retentative woul assume that Star Wars cannot do it. Only the grossly negligently moronic would believe that a 2 km long vessel does not have enough jamming equipment to make transporters useless. They'd get the trick off once, if that.
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i believe that was me, and i haven't changed my stance on games, they are still not canon. I did however agree w/ you on the sensors based on on-screen facts.
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first off,size of a ship does not prove they have modulating shields.thats the most ridiculous statement so far,thats like saying becasue a cadillac is big it must be able to fly.
its the diffrence between am radio and fm radio,one is frequency modulation and one is amplitude modulation.there is a huge diffrence between the two.
sw does not have the ability to modulate shield frequencies,if they do they havent shown it,and since this is a very anal retentive discussion, sw cannot stop transporters.
unless you can show where sw can modulate shielding then sw loses that much faster.
and for your information,transporters are the single most powerful weapon in either galaxy,they are not some one time use parlor trick.the ability to materialize troops and equipment to any location within range is a very very powerful weapon.
sw wouldnt even have small fighters if they had transport.thats why st doesnt have that many small vessels,they became outdated.
and besides, transdimensonal transporters can go threw any shields and any substance.
you let me know how awsome some huge ship is when one transport of one photon torp can destroy it.size doesnt matter unless its your dick.
also,blasters have horrible recoil,they are extremly inaccurate,they need constant reloading,and most are not very powerful[look at the small holes they leave when they hit something]and they cant go threw more then one person,and they cant go threw walls.
phasers can disintagrate matter[even tiny type 1 phasers can disintagrate 1 humaniod],stun humaniods,have multiple frequincy settings,varible beam widths,zero recoil,self contained auto cover fire,dozens of uses[heating rocks,melting minerals,ect.],and the phase rifles can go much longer without reloading then your average blaster[look at jedi outcast],plus they can all be made to automaticly multiphase to diffrent settings .
also,sw does not have any way to resupply once they reach the st galaxy,they have to go all the way back to their galaxy to resupply. st has replicaters,manufacturing weapons and supplies are easy for st[but st cannot replicate
the focusing crystal in the phaser,but they can replicate the
tr-116,which would be devastating to any ground troops,its superior to any hand held weapon in all of sw,jedi wouldnt be able to counter it].
how about citing examples or having proof before you claim sw is superior,so far all evidence suggests otherwise.
just saying sw can do something doesnt make it true.
dont make me get picard to call Q and have him talk to your preciuos empire.
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Sorry Mars, but if the official site says games aren't canon, they aren't. The end. Anyway, your other statements are also foolish. No one here has claimed even once that SW would be able to beat ST in seconds, hours, or even months. In fact, the only one bragging about how fast it would be is you, with your spiel about transporters. Further, you throw out comments like spatial anomalies and more tech than SW could imagine, yet you have nothing to back that up expressly given. So it seems you are telling us to offer proof when you yourself have not. Hypocrisy.
In the meantime, I agree that blasters are energy weapons. However, even if the borg are not susceptible, they are to other means. A group of Amanin warriors armed with tribal spears, Cerean duelists with Shyarn scimitars, Dresellians with slugthrower rifles, or evejn the average grunt with a vibrobayonet fixed to his rifle could prove dangerous to the Borg. And, moreover, I wonder about the Borg cubes. Do they also recalibrate to be immune to energy weapons? Even if they do, it won't matter. You see, SW Proton Torps, Concussion Missiles, and other various warheads are solid. And, the ships from the older eras like the time of Xim the Despot used rail guns or other forms of mass drivers that fired solid shots. Very dangerous to your average Borg. I can picture the Borg controlled planets being assaulted from orbit with "primitive" magnetic accelerators, and then being taken over by troops armed with slugthrowers and AT-STs with concussion grenade launchers, while TIE Bombers and Y-Wings pummel strong points with concussion bombs. As for the Jedi, there are a couple things I must say. Number one, there is no way to separate an individual from their midichlorians through a bioscreen, because the midichlorians are part of the cell. They are attached most likely to the DNA, and people are born with them. In the meantime, even if Jedi could have the Force removed from them in that way, it does not remove their battle prowess, including with a lightsaber, though they couldn't deflect energy bolts. Oh, and as for the energy recalibration, the Paddle-Beamers fired an entirely different kind of energy than anything that was known. In the meantime, Phasers are almost exactly the same as SW disruptors, which lightsabers can deflect. And, even though Luke could not initially deflect the paddle-beamers, he could still stop them; he merely couldn't send them back at the opponent. Finally, there is only one race which is partially immune to the Force, and a couple which are resistant to its manipulatory powers of the mind. Toydarians, Hutts, and Dashade all had limited resistance to the Force, but this was merely because of a general force of will that those species posess. The Yuuzhan Vong are immune to Force powers that directly effect them, but they could still, say, have a ceiling crash down on them or have their ships flung together. There is absolutely no reason to believe that ST species would be immune to the Force except under very special circumstances.
Until later...
