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Yes. We cannot ignore SciFi tech just because it doesn't make sense, because technically, none of this crap is scientific at all. It's all garbage. This is the flaw of the "dealing with sci fi as if it were science" policy, which whilst making better debate, runs into the plot-based reasons for things existing constantly.
so,why wont anyone comment on the borgminion?
theres no denying that they would be extremly formidable opponents.
Mars13:
Yes there is. The Borg would essentially just get some Jem'hadar genetics, which all in all, aren't horrifically impressive. Worf was able to beat the Hell out of an entire platoon of Jem'Hadar, one after another, even after suffering pretty bad injuries each fight. Similarly, Sisko and co were able to defeat an outpost manned by the Jem'hadar. Add this to the fact that the Borg is only a problem to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, due to an entire lack of military prowess displayed by any of the powers, specifically as regards infantry.
To just give an example of how powerful Star Wars really is, aside from the classic Death Star examples, consider this information on the Executor-class Super Star Destroyer, from [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Destroyer:[/url]
Newer source material indicates that the ~19,000 meter long Executor class (according to LFL by Leland Chee and Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy) carries over 5,000 turbolasers, ion cannons, and many wings of starfighters. The number of wings is unknown, but Darksaber sets the lower limit at some "thousands" of starfighters. The number of lesser weaponry such as point-defense laser cannon and missile weaponry has not been published. Two prefabricated garrison bases are also stored on board for rapid deployment. Her shields are said to be able to dissipate power output equal to a medium-sized star; in one comic, the shields are shown to protect the Executor from colliding with three Imperial-class Star Destroyers as they left hyperspace at relativistic speed.
Despite its immense firepower, the ship was designed first and foremost as a mobile command and control center. Some sources have suggested that she may be a large battlecruiser; however, the armour may be enough to be considered a battleship.
The Executor-class has sometimes been referred to as "Super-class."
Star Trek sensors:
Can count number of life forms from orbit.
Star Wars sensors:
Loses site of a ship hiding on the other side of an asteroid.
Discrepancy?
[QUOTE=Prince_James]The dominion, which did have top-level people routinely featured, such as that female founder, and Weyoun, never discussed the possibility of time-travel warfare, either.
Bashir went to Sisko with the augment-crazies ideas for what would happen in the Dominion War, and was seriously considered, so we're not just dealing with say...O'Brian or Geordi chatting up the possibilities of time travel warfare at Quark's on Enterprise shore leave. Moreover, considering in Star Trek 4, Kirk and Co. go back precisely to 1986, precisely in a specific area, somewhat refutes the notion that 24th century time travel wasn't exacting. Similarly, the Enterprise under Picard was capable of going back in time a numerous times, including to just days before Data's head would appear in that cavern in San Fransisco.
[/quote]
'Little control' as in: unless a very specific solution was attained, there were likely to be extremely bad repercussions. One might surmise that the margin for error was far too small to any attempt at large scale changes worth while.
[quote]Yes, which seems to indicate that time travel has some limitations/special aspects to it that aren't present in the real world, that may well make it implausible for actual, full scale, war.[/quote]
Explain.
[quote]The problem with this is that it assumes that Star Wars never attacked the Fed in the 24th century. Feasibly, the 29th century could have an alliance with the New Republic. Although even the New Republic is not as pussy as the Fed, and that is saying a lot, considering the Republic refused to use Imperial superweapon technology to fight against the Vong which killed over 300 trillion sentients in the SW Galaxy, including the total destruction of Coruscant's 100,000+ year old city structure.[/quote]
This assumes that the SW attack on the 24th century ST (not just the UFP) even gets out of the starting block.
T=0
SW and ST universes 'collide'
T=1
SW jumps off to ST universe
29th century ST detects the change and reacts. Initiates a miniloop
T=0.5
29th century ST 'crushes' SW universe
T=1
No jump off
T=2
Business as usual.
[quote]I believe only the Deathstar uses hypermatter, but even so, it is difficult to work with the physics of hypermatter, considering the lack of knowledge about such things. The term seems to be linked with hyperspace, but aside from that, we know essentially nothing.[/QUOTE]
Well, whatever the fuel a SW vessel uses, it has enormous energy potential. Detonating the fuel will be enough to destroy the vessel.
so,can sw ships counter transdimensional transporters?
if they cant,then all that fire power is worthless when some antimatter gets beamed into its reactor core.
and how long before the borg get the transdimensional transport and can just beam 50billion troops onto any ship they want?
and after the borg assimilate one sw humaniod they will have the mydoclrodians,now imaging borg-force powers.
also,borg shields should stop blasters and lightsabers,as both are energy attacks.so thats a big disadvantage for some storm trooper when a borgminion troop transports into his quarters when hes on the can.and jedi will be at a disadvantage when their primary weapons dont work anymore,especialy after the borg have assimilated the force and can counter force powers,and are immune to lightsabers and blasters.
the borg are their strongest against an opponent that has no knowledge of their tactics,use energy weapons,have absolutly no knowledge of transporters[the borg can allready beam throu shielding].
also,after the borg assimilate a few star destroyers they will have turbolaser tech and will be able to use it against other sw forces.
im sure dylithium and whatever sw uses for fuel might make some powerful technology.
and the borg WILL exploit every weakness sw has.
Okay lets stop some sillness right here.
First the misconception of the inherent superiority of the Phaser of the Blaster. The Phaser fires a beam of energy that is phased in such a way that is actually acting as a solid. While blasters user chemical and a small bit of energy to create a solid bolt of light. The effect the same amount of damage, but a Blaster is more efficent power wise allowing more shots per clip. Luckily for Star Wars the Blaster Bolt has a more physical presence and thus preying on the vulnerbility ofBorgs versus purely physical forces.
Second the disparity of Photon-Quantum Torpedoes and Proton Torpedoes. Several times it has been shown the destructive radius of a Photon torpedo is less than a hundred feet. Quantums do slightly better at 200. A proton torpedo does the same 100 as the Photon torpedo, but is only 1 meter long verses 2+ meters.
Third the one falacy that Star Wars sheilds are inferior to Start Trek sheilds. Star trek uses a electromagnetic bubbles to defend itself and mainatin strusctural integrity. Meanwhile Star Wars has two sets of shield Particle sheild which are always on and reinforcing the the hull versus attacks form physical objects and Energy Sheilds which are on par if not superior to Star Treks shields. You could not beam through either set as the energy signature would not allow a proper pattern lock.
Fourth the supposed superiority of Star Trek metal. Tritanium alloy is just another term for Dura Stell and vice versa. The windows on Star Destroyers are transparent alluminum or it equivalent. The man advantage falls to the Empire however as their massive ships have armor several feet thick versus the Federation model of a foot at average.
Now anyone who analyzes the rest of ther tech and outlook would place Empire as clear winners or a menace as bad as the Borg.
Star Wars has Cloaking Devices that actually work. Common AI's that make Data look like a dunce. Bacta, which in it's own right makes Star Wars the better place to be. More powerful and reliable anti gravity. Better designed shuttles and Starfighters. Better trained troops. Better war vehicles. Larger and more heavily armed ships. Not to mention a weapon that would make any Star trek Universe ship instantly useless, the Ion Cannon.
In all reality it would go one of two ways.
A. The Empire approaches the Federation with offers of Trade and Technology Exchange. The federation being the trusting idiots they are agree. Soon the empire has Replicators, Warp Drives, improved Sensor systems, and a plethora of small things. In turn the Empire gives them Bacta, Cyborg systems and maybe smaller more efficent Tractor beams as well. Not more than a month later Earth is now under Imperial control. Some of the resistance might send distress calls for help but every other major member world fell within hours. Beta-zed was destroyed by Torpedo Sphere bombardment. As per agreement with the Romulans and the Klingons a few worlds are handed over to them. Doesn't matter much as within the year they will be conquered.
B. Empire attacks head on. This would be reminiscint of the war with the Founders. Except not going as well at first. Without doubt if the governemtns rallied together they could drive back the attackers, but it is a safe bet the Cardassians or the Romulans would join the Empire's side if only to survive.
The Borg are zombies. They make little since when critical thinking is applied. Slow moving, thoughtless automatons, though deadly at close range, lack any sort of defense against projectiles or melee weapons.
Though augmented with technology, they still are mostly flesh. Flamethrowers anyone? Chain guns? A sharp stick maybe?
But of course, when facing zombies, individuals tend to make horrible decisions. Perhaps the collective universe of Star Wars would fail to see the weakness of the Borg (just as every Star Trek individual has, except Warf and a primitive with a gun) and lose. Somehow I doubt it, though.
Borg with the Force? What would they do with the Force? Stumble about and levitate stuff? An army of bronzeage swordsmen could defeat the borg in melee combat.
Force crush to a borg, bye bye borg. Maybe pull some of those goofy looking wires out of a borgs head.
[QUOTE=TW Scott]
The Phaser fires a beam of energy that is phased in such a way that is actually acting as a solid.[/quote]
To my knowledge, there has never been an on screen explanation (i.e. canon explanation) on how phasers work. We've seen them vaporize things, blow through rock, etc., etc.. Given the wide range of instances, I suspect you're going to have to come up with a better theory.
[quote]While blasters user chemical and a small bit of energy to create a solid bolt of light.[/quote]
Nope. Blasters are particle weapons (particles with finite rest masses). So are phasers, for that matter. 'Solid bolt of light', my foot.
[quote]...but a Blaster is more efficent power wise allowing more shots per clip.[/quote]
The blaster can fire more shots because SW power cells have superior energy density. There's nothing 'more or less' efficient about it.
[quote]Luckily for Star Wars the Blaster Bolt has a more physical presence and thus preying on the vulnerbility ofBorgs versus purely physical forces.[/quote]
Fallacious claim.
[quote]Second the disparity of Photon-Quantum Torpedoes and Proton Torpedoes. Several times it has been shown the destructive radius of a Photon torpedo is less than a hundred feet. Quantums do slightly better at 200.[/quote]
I don't think we've ever seen much of a difference between photorp and quantorp explosions. Photorps have been calced at 100 MT (TNG "Skin of Evil", and even those calcs are not wholly accepted.)
The maximum yields may actually go a lot higher due to DS9's "The Die is Cast." However, one could say that these are different types of photon torpedoes.
Proton torpedoes also vary in yields depending on what size they are.
For example, the ones carried by fighters are known to have sub-kiloton or kiloton yields. (In the EU there were instances of fighters being destroyed due to shrapnel from a proton torpedo, which would imply a sub-kiloton yield. The Star Wars Technical Journal actually says that they have 1 kiloton yields. However, other EU sources indicate megaton yields as well.)
Anticapital ship proton torpedoes, however, are insanely powerful, sufficient to threaten the multi-teraton shields of warships. Although I don't recall how big these types of warheads are.
[quote]Third the one falacy that Star Wars sheilds are inferior to Start Trek sheilds. Star trek uses a electromagnetic bubbles to defend itself and mainatin strusctural integrity.[/quote]
ST shields are not merely EM bubbles. Although that is a better explanation of how the SIF works.
[quote]Particle sheild which are always on...[/quote]
Really?
[quote]You could not beam through either set as the energy signature would not allow a proper pattern lock.[/quote]
Which is ultimately irrelevant when it comes to using the transporter destructively.
[quote]Tritanium alloy is just another term for Dura Stell and vice versa.[/quote]
Ouch. That's one way of insulting hard core Star Wars fans. ;)
Oh, and are you able to provide proof that tritanium and durasteel are the same thing, properties and all?
[quote]Star Wars has Cloaking Devices that actually work.[/quote]
They work, but impose significant operational limitations on the cloaked ship. ('Double blind.')
[quote]Common AI's that make Data look like a dunce.[/quote]
Comparative examples, please?
[quote]Bacta, which in it's own right makes Star Wars the better place to be.[/quote]
Bacta is not an improvement over ST medical technology. Nothing that a ST dermal regenerator couldn't accomplish just as well, and in a fraction of the time and cost.
[quote]More powerful and reliable anti gravity.[/quote]
Arguable.
[quote]Better designed shuttles and Starfighters.[/quote]
Also arguable.
As for starfighters, the comparison is rather suspect. ST doesn't make heavy use of starfighters in the first place (which is fine, seeing that starfighters are bogus anyways, especially when you have missiles.) The only reason that SW fighters do well against ST capships is because of the tech gap.
(On an unrelated note, a SW fleet using SW tech in a logical fashion would have no need for fighters in space combat. An interesting thought experiment for you.)
[quote]Better trained troops. Better war vehicles.[/quote]
Hard to judge if SW ground troops are any better trained than ST ground troops.
As for combat vehicles, design wise, we have very little idea what a ST one would look like or be capable of since we've never seen a puspose-built example. If SW vehicles are superior, it is merely due to (again) the tech gap.
[quote]Larger and more heavily armed ships. Not to mention a weapon that would make any Star trek Universe ship instantly useless, the Ion Cannon.[/quote]
Assuming a SW ship could hit a manoeuvering target in the first place.
[quote]In all reality it would go one of two ways.[/quote]
Only if you assume that it isn't an 'all out' conflict.
I dont know why the ST guys keep assuming that the entire ST universe will rally towards a common goal. Theres no evidence that they would. There isnt even a galaxy wide anything. What do the borg live in? 2 quadrants? The dominion? One? Theres no evidence they would all come together to repell some invader from another galaxy, chances are they wouldnt know about it until it reached their little area of space.
Evidence of this? Look at the zero they knew about whereever voyager went.
Read the original post. The assumption that 'everything ST' vs 'everything SW' was made.
Just because theyre AGAINST everyone, doesnt mean all the different facets will organize themselves together, or all be effected at the same time. It just means that they are all hostile towards each other.
thats what SF does all day,it build aliances with alien races.how many times has SF made alliences with there enemies to achieve a common goal?the romulons,cardassians,klingons,andorians, vulcans,ferengi,and star fleet would all be united as soon as the first sw vessel appeared as hostile,and once the dominion and the borg find out sw fleets are invading the galaxy they would do everything in there power[including time travel] to stop them.
a borg-dominion allience would be the most feared creatures in the universe,shapeshifting,assmilating,immune to energy attacks,and capable of transport onto any ship they chose.sw is in for some trouble.
and im still waiting to see if sw shields can modulate frequencies and energy types,just saying you assume they do is not an example or evidence or canon.
also,transdimensional transporters would destroy entire sw fleets in seconds,its tech they have never seen and have no defence against.
sw is woefully unprepared for transporter warfare,also,borg can transport throu shields without using transdimensional transport,and there are dozens of examples of st being able to transport throu shields once they have their operating frequency.
and what was that crap about the borg not being able to use the force? they have only enslaved half the galaxy,what would they know about weaponry and tactics and how to use new technology,thats only there entire purpose for being.[this is why sw fans dont get to write for st].
so unless sw can counter transporters[and theres no evidence they can],or modulate shielding [again,zero evidence they can]then they are royaly screwed.
they can have all the guns in the galaxy when one gram of antimatter beamed into their reactor will destroy there entire ship.[one small fighter blast destroys a stardestroyer,remeber?,like st sensors wouldnt find and exploit that weakness in seconds].
and durasteel would be a ferite[iron] based material,where as tritanium is a metalicpolymer[plasticmetal,dont quote me],tritanium is superior to durasteel.i bet sw ships even rust[look at jabas junker,rusty as hell]
also,picard operating one borg cube destroyed dozens of planets and ships without any resistance,proving that once one sw fleet comander gets assmilated,the borg will have all there tactics and technology and operating frequencies,and since sw cant stop transporters this will happenquikly and often.
and how well do you think a storm trooper will do against a borg?one shot froma blaster and the borg is now immune,and all following borg are immune as well,so what does the poor trooper have now? harsh language?!worthless queer white armour.
and thats a worthless camo pattern for troopers,white? how they hell are they supposed to defet ground troops on alien worlds with god only knows how many beings,plants,and compounds that decimate away teams,if they cant even pick a camo pattern that doesnt stick out like a sore thumb?
klingons would hunt and kill troopers for sport in ground warfare,ewoks can kill them,i know klingons can.
and do you really think that betaziods wont be able to see the deception if sw tried a false alliance tactic first?thats what they do,read emotions and thoughts,sw wouldnt be able to lie to sf command about an invasion for more then 30 seconds.
and why do you think blasters are more effecient? they can barely burn small holes in humaniods,phasers can disintagrate entire vehicles to subatomic dust.in about the same size package.
how about you find someway to counter a transporter before i beam some antimatter into your reactor core and decimate your crappy lame-steel and worthless camo.
sw may win some battles at first,but they WILL lose the war.
ps,sw medical tech is a joke, picard has an artifical heart,while darth vader has some huge clunky loud mechanical contraption he has to wear.st would have just got him some new lungs and limbs and stuff.
look at geordis visor,he can see better then most andriods in sw.outclassed much?
Okay let us start with the blasters issue, yet again. I gave you the correct exlpanantion, but people insist they are purely energy. A blaster uses a radiation surge to trigger so called "blaster gases" to emit a powerful light emission. this emission is focused and directed in such a way that is creates a solid bolt of photons. Now granted the bolts don't look like they are moving at the spedd of light, but that is just a movie. BTW the design is based off of improvements of chemical lasers we currently have. A borg could try to remodulate to this but as as it is basically a beam being uses as a solid bullet they are SOL.
Durasteel: using my Complete Encyclopedia of the Star Trek universe and several sources for Starwars I have discovered that Durasteel is practically identical to Tritanium. it has many characterteristics that are very close. ST Tritanium melts at a temperature 1 degree higher, but it takes 2 more pounds of pressure to deform Durasteel. So in effect they are practically identical, with just the end processing being different.
Medical: SW and ST are virtually identical they have many of the same things. The reason for Darth vaders armor is solely becuase his lungs were gone to a point he should have died. ST doctors would have just let him go. SW doctors could have given his cybernetic lungs, but he needs a good portion of his body to manifest his powers on the levels he does.
Telepathy: there are several races in the SW unvierse who are completely immune to telepathy. not to mention that any beta-zed who tried to read Palpatine or vader's mind would become their quite willing slaves.
Borgs and the Force: I have yet to see any Borg use a Vulcan mind meld or beta-zed telepathy. So it is safe to conclude that the Force would be too much a mystery.
Transporters and SW Shields: SW vessels have two layers of shields. One works much like the ST shields except they have this unique ability to shift more sheilding to any direction form the others. Now this leads me to conclude that they can modulate their shields. The second set actullay runns through the armor strengthening it and vaporizing small objects before they can strike the hull. Not to mention the countless internal shields used to safeguard crew, troops, and equipment. Beaming Anitmatter inot an Antimatter engine will not have undo effects.
Proton Torpedoes: I read the same book you did and the shrpnell was from an object the Torpedo had struck. The damage yeilds on the standard size 1/2 meter Proton Torpedo is 100 megatons. An X-wing carries nine of those. the 1 meter long ones are 250 megatons and B-Wings carry 16. Concussion missles have a payload of 100 to 200 megatons and Tie Bombers carry thirty.
Despite all of this SW doesn't win becuase of tech but becuase of outlook. The Federation will immediately open it's arms, because that what it does. Then comes the knife in the back. one the Empire has the Federation technologies, woe to ST galaxy.
Star Trek sensors:
Can count number of life forms from orbit.
Star Wars sensors:
Loses site of a ship hiding on the other side of an asteroid.
Or am I just making things up?
Ever played Star Fleet Battles on the computer. Star trek loses sight of target on the other side of Asteroids, too.
Do the videogames count as canon?
I believe we said SW do, since they come directly from Lucasarts, while ST don't, because the owners or somesuch said so.
Now then, its been a while. I have to comment on cloaks. There are three types of cloaks used on SW ships, and one used on infantry and light vehicles. The first starship cloak is the double blind one, which uses stygium crystals to project the cloak. Stygium is common on several worlds and that is why it is commonly used. Generally, this was uneffective for combat, but the Emperor owned a computer system which Thrawn once started useing before moving on to bigger and better things, and this computer predicted enemy tactics to shoot at them blindly. Second, someone also used the cloaks to mass a large fleet around Bothawui using unseemly mining ships as guides. Finally, Thrawn again used the cloaks to blockade Coruscant by cloaking asteroids and transporting then releasing them into orbit, in great numbers to damage/destroy incoming transports. The second kind of cloak is the Iridium cloaker. This cloak did not have the double blind effect and was more common in the Old Republic before many crystals were mined. Darth Maul's Infiltrator and the Emperor's shuttle had these cloaking devices, though we never saw them used. However, they were used quite effectively by the Imperial experimental fighter program when a large number of V-38 assault fighters were equipped with them, creating the TIE Phantom. Finally, the last of the cloaks for starships was an active camoflauge system created by the Mon Calamari for the W-Wing. This fighter was never produced because the Empire captured the prototype, which disappeared, and destroyed the research facility. The actice camo worked to exactly mimic the surroundings while simultaneously removing all detectable emissions. Lastly, there are the infantry "cloaks". These were personal holoprojectors which could be hooked up to a camera and fed the exact location's appearance to completely hide the wearer. Combine this with, say, Black Hole's Stealth Troopers and you have an infantry force invisible to opposing troops. Next, I would like to support the claim that SW sheild can be recalibrated because they can be redirected. This is first shown in Ep. IV actually, when, uhh, Gold Leader maybe, says, "Switch all power to front deflector screens." Also, it is concieveable that SW shields' frequency can be changed because of a book called The Truce at Bakura. The Ssi-Ruuvi that the combined Empire and Rebels fight use biological ion cannons called Paddle-Beamers to capture energy sources. Luke could not initially deflect them with his lightsaber, but he was able to recalibrate it to do so. This would indicate that there are enough different forms of weapons in use that it is occasionally necessary to do so, or else why would Luke be able to? Finally, the ridiculous comments about Stormtroopers and Jedi being useless against Borg has to be destroyed. A Jedi is not his lightsaber, and through history many Jedi have not used lightsabers. Master Vodo-Siosk Bask, for example, was a Jedi Councilor who used a quarterstaff. Meanwhile, the trooper on the can, as you so eloquently put it, if surprised by a large force, would be more likely to reach for his thermal detonator. Good luck escaping that one, Borgs.
The computer game is based off the Star Fleet Battles strategy game which is VERY CANON. A Star Fleet vessels sensors are good, true, but not omniscient, by any stretch of the term.