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So your saying that because 1,000 ships can't destroy a planet, that's how many ships must be in th entire fleet? Wow, public schooling must be getting better. I noticed that you were looking at the wrong context clues. He's saying that the combined firepower of 1,000 ISD's can't destroy (As in blow to pieces.) an entire planet. NOT that there are only 1,000 ISD's in the entire fleet.
Here's a problem you've all been avoiding completely:
Trek ships are a thousand times faster than Wars ships... a TL battery will never hit the Ent-E during combat...
Only take into account the weapons that can impact a ship going 80% the speed of light.
That... doesn't leave you with very many... considering most of the fights we see, they can't hit something going in a straight line at less than 5% the speed of light...
[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1710671]Star Wars weapons are not nearly as strong as they are made out to be.
[/QUOTE]
Canon observations say they are. You see we have the issue that scifi movies contradict themselves. When they are made their goal isn't consistance or to help us debate them. Their goal is $$$ in the box office. So What do you do when a canon contradicts itself?
You can either use the lower power examples and live with the fact that parts of canon disagree with your opinions or you can use the most powerful canon examples. That way all canon events are explainable in your idea of the universe. Thats why I consider the the most powerful species first (borg).
I have noticed some people saying that the borg can't adapt to SW weapons. I think this is not correct. Consider the fact that TL bolts have a color. If a TL covered all freqencies then wouldn't the bolt be white? White light has all colors (frequencies) in it. Obviously TL bolts have a many frequencies but its obvious that some frequencies possess the bulk of the power and others little to none. If this wasn't true then again the bolts would be white. The borg can adapt to the frequencies that harbor the greatest energy distrubution.
[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1710671]
And, World Devastators dont matter now, eh? Because the World Devastator was defeated...
[/QUOTE]
All but one. But most importantly, the ability to make more still exists.
[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1710671]
And both Death Stars were destroyed.
[/QUOTE]
Yup, all that is left is the protype from Maw right?
[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1710671]
And the Imperial Fleet was Destroyed.
[/QUOTE]
Not to my knowledge, but then again I haven't read most of the novels.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1710689]Here's a problem you've all been avoiding completely:
Trek ships are a thousand times faster than Wars ships... a TL battery will never hit the Ent-E during combat...
Only take into account the weapons that can impact a ship going 80% the speed of light.
That... doesn't leave you with very many... considering most of the fights we see, they can't hit something going in a straight line at less than 5% the speed of light...[/QUOTE]
Probably why we see them using fleet formations so they fire a wall of TL bolts at an area. Dodge one great but you got 100s more all around ya.
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710434]I didn't hear anywhere in the clip the size of the romulan/cardassian fleet. However, yes however many ships they did have it took out 30% of the crust.[/QUOTE]
It was 20 ships, I can look it up for you if you want.
[QUOTE]Assuming the following:
1. That 4.2 gigawatts is the phaser banks output not just the power needed to run it.[/QUOTE]
Don't see any reason why it wouldn't, it should work just like a phaser, which I think directly translates into the power of the weapon (or so their testing leads me to believe)
[QUOTE]2. Assuming there are 933 emiters in an array[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I may be off by a few, more or less, but that should be the number (counting that many emitters is difficult)
[QUOTE]3. Assuming the power of the emiters is addative[/QUOTE]
Well, that's the whole point of the array in the first place. It allows the Enterprise to fire its weapons at a specific target along any part of the array by collecting the energy from all the other arrays. The Enterprise can actually fire every single one of its arrays seperately if it wanted to, and we do see them split up firepower with Cardassian ships and fighters.
[QUOTE]Then yes the Ent D can output 4000 gwatts. However, if that is true wouldn't one phaser shot be able to take out the shields of a galaxy class star ship? I wonder if all your assumptions are valid. I think there is an example in TNG of X gigawatt attacks collapsing the enterprises shielding in a single blow.[/QUOTE]
No. Why would it do that? You're not thinking of that Survivor episode are you? The ship in that episode was dealing some kind of funky weapons, the problem wasn't the shield holding, it was that Worf was having trouble keeping the shield grid assembled from the attacks, and the fact that the weapon itself did very little damage to the Enterprise D itself is somewhat telling. If it could only take a few gigawatts, then the Enterprise would have been really screwed when a warbird popped up to say hello. And actually, in Generations, we saw that Doctor Soran had a mini 50 gigawatt shield that he used to keep Picard out. I would think that the Enterprise D could generate a hell lot more than that.
[QUOTE]Where did it say the make up of the fleet?[/QUOTE]
Sometime before the event, but I recognize the ship. The yellow ones are the Cardassian warships, and their firepower is like a century behind the Federations, in The Wounded (I think), we saw a Nebula class starship (UFP) basicly trounce within the borders of Cardassian space and beating the crap out of the Cardassian ones, not to mention that UFP fighters can actually blow holes through their shields with their photon torps. The larger green ones are the Romulan warbirds, which are on par with the Galaxy class (I think it was mentioned in the episode, I believe that the Warbird has the firepower advantage, while the GCS has better shielding due to the design flaws of the D Warbird).
[QUOTE]logically?[/QUOTE]
Well, the warbirds have higher firepower than most UFP ships, because that's basicly the Romulans only warship before the Dominion War (where we see the Scimitar and Valdore class), and the Romulans had built larger ships to overpower their UFP rivals, but I believe their fleet is a bit smaller (quality of quantity idea). Now, this would make the number a bit too large for the UFP to do, if it wasn't for the fact that the Cardassians were there, and likely didn't do all that much, considering how inferior their technology is.
[QUOTE]Ironic isn't it that hes numbers prove a borg cube has shielding off the charts even compared to the superior ISD vessels.[/QUOTE]
They should be. They withstood 40 UFP ships. Give those same ships four seconds with a planet, and about 50% of that crust will be missing.
[QUOTE]Maybe. But that is a big assumption that I would need canon support to make. You see, making a claim that the future version of yourself will come to your defense is an endless loop. The future feds come to kill the past empire. Well maybe the future empire comes to kill the future feds. Well then maybe the future future feds come to kill the future empire....
And so on and so on....[/QUOTE]
Problem is how unlikely that is given that the Empire lacks temporal technology. Also, the Future Feds have protected the timeline, as we see in Voyager and Enterprise. There isn't a reason to stop doing so now.
[QUOTE]I guess what Im trying to understand is that if the future feds are willing to to go and stop a attacker that has used time travel, then why didn't we see future federation ships attacking the borg sphere in first encounter? It seems to me canon shows that the future feds don't do that sort of thing.[/QUOTE]
It was actually mentioned in an episode with the 29th century timeship (UFP), that if it wasn't for the Borg, the UFP wouldn't exist in the first place. It's a bit of a paradox yes, but it is somewhat sane. They don't always get involved, double so when a former group has already taken care of it. So either the Empire loses to the 24th century, or they lose to the 31st century.
[QUOTE=halo07guy;1710682]So your saying that because 1,000 ships can't destroy a planet, that's how many ships must be in th entire fleet? Wow, public schooling must be getting better. I noticed that you were looking at the wrong context clues. He's saying that the combined firepower of 1,000 ISD's can't destroy (As in blow to pieces.) an entire planet. NOT that there are only 1,000 ISD's in the entire fleet.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the problem is that Han is somewhat unspecific, not to mention that we don't know all there is to know about the Imperial fleet. For example, in Star Trek, they have seperate fleets, such as the first fleet, second fleet, and so on, so it's possible that he's talking about one specific fleet, like the one that has jurisdiction in that area, rather than every ship the Empire's got.
[QUOTE=Hellblade8;1710788]
Problem is how unlikely that is given that the Empire lacks temporal technology. Also, the Future Feds have protected the timeline, as we see in Voyager and Enterprise. There isn't a reason to stop doing so now.
[/QUOTE]
Which episodes in TNG did the future federation come back in time to make something right?
I can think of several episodes where they didn't. The first I already mentioned (First contact) the other is the one where the earlier enterprise suddenly appeared from the past altering the time line and putting the federation on the brink of defeat with the klingons. I mean if there was ever a moment for intervention that would have been it no?
If the future feds wouldn't help prevent the defeat of federation from the klingon empire why should we believe they would for the imperial empire? Both would have been caused by temporal incursions.
There is one more thing we must consider. Lets say the empire strikes without warning hyper jumps into earth orbit unleashes massive fire power on many earth cities and kills a person's great grandfather who would have invented time travel for the future feds in the first place. The empire's first strike just killed any ability for the future feds to help. So I guess my next question is if a person is going to inlist help from the future I think they need to show that an initial attack didn't kill the grandparents of anyone critically important.
[QUOTE=Hellblade8;1710788]
It was actually mentioned in an episode with the 29th century timeship (UFP), that if it wasn't for the Borg, the UFP wouldn't exist in the first place. It's a bit of a paradox yes, but it is somewhat sane. They don't always get involved, double so when a former group has already taken care of it. So either the Empire loses to the 24th century, or they lose to the 31st century.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe the intial attack kills a Captain Picard type of the future and dooms the future feds along with the present ones....who can say what would happen. And thats why its just silly to rely on a future version of yourself to help you.
Ok so here is a question for you all.
When species 8472 blew up the borg planet the center ship in the formation was different from the regular bio ships. How much more powerful is that center ship?
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710913]Which episodes in TNG did the future federation come back in time to make something right?[/QUOTE]
We don't see it in TNG, but we get a hint of the early foundation part of Temporal Investigations in DS9, then we see 29th century UFP in Voyager, and in Enterprise, there was a whole story arch dedicated to the Temporal Cold War.
[QUOTE]I can think of several episodes where they didn't. The first I already mentioned (First contact) the other is the one where the earlier enterprise suddenly appeared from the past altering the time line and putting the federation on the brink of defeat with the klingons. I mean if there was ever a moment for intervention that would have been it no?[/QUOTE]
First of all, the Borg were stopped by the Enterprise E, and thus, Picard would have filed a report, and thus the 31st UFP would have known about it for a long time. Now, they might have repaired some small temporal issues, as we are told that the timeships clean up time to some extent if there's an issue, and we're told that one 29th century captain has had to clean up after Janeway several times. Also, I don't recall which thing with the Klingons you're refering to.
[QUOTE]If the future feds wouldn't help prevent the defeat of federation from the klingon empire why should we believe they would for the imperial empire? Both would have been caused by temporal incursions.[/QUOTE]
Which episode is this?
[QUOTE]There is one more thing we must consider. Lets say the empire strikes without warning hyper jumps into earth orbit unleashes massive fire power on many earth cities and kills a person's great grandfather who would have invented time travel for the future feds in the first place. The empire's first strike just killed any ability for the future feds to help. So I guess my next question is if a person is going to inlist help from the future I think they need to show that an initial attack didn't kill the grandparents of anyone critically important.[/QUOTE]
Well, the problem is that Earth has something called "shields", as well as planetary defenses to stop invaders. Remeber that DS9 had 5,000 photon torps ready to launch in Way of the Warrior, and that was an upgraded Cardassian station that the UFP got a hold of, just imagine what the capital of the UFP can toss out.
And even if we assume that does happen, the future feds have timeships with temporal shields, they use them to keep the crew from being altered by the timeline, that's how they can counter attacks from the past against them in Enterprise; they scan time and use their temporal shields to protect them from alterations in the timeline. Also, the Sphere Builders tried that trick, they basicly gave a Enterprise era race the technology to build their own version of the Death Star to destroy earth in the past, and that failed horribly because the 31st century UFP got involved.
[QUOTE]Or maybe the intial attack kills a Captain Picard type of the future and dooms the future feds along with the present ones....who can say what would happen. And thats why its just silly to rely on a future version of yourself to help you.[/QUOTE]
I'm not relying upon it for debate, but that what would logically happen. The temporal disturbance would call in the 31st UFP and they'd deal with the problem, there is no reason to assume that their technology no longe works, or that they suddenly won't do their job.
But we are getting away from my main point about the phasers. They're pretty powerful and should easily outclass ISDs.
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710919]Ok so here is a question for you all.
When species 8472 blew up the borg planet the center ship in the formation was different from the regular bio ships. How much more powerful is that center ship?[/QUOTE]
It was the same ship that you see the other times, bioships can alter parts of their ships, they were just channeling the power into that paticular ship.
I'm not sure if that has any validity
[QUOTE=halo07guy;1710682]So your saying that because 1,000 ships can't destroy a planet, that's how many ships must be in th entire fleet? Wow, public schooling must be getting better. I noticed that you were looking at the wrong context clues. He's saying that the combined firepower of 1,000 ISD's can't destroy (As in blow to pieces.) an entire planet. NOT that there are only 1,000 ISD's in the entire fleet.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've... there's another ship comin' in![/QUOTE]
The Entire Starfleet couldnt take down the planet, and it would take a thousand planets.
Looks like movie, canon evidence says there ARE only 1000 ships in the fleet.
Here is what I imagine the first encounter with the Borg would be like.
ISD: Captain. We have noticed a cubical figure approaching us. Apparently, it has minimal shields and weapons. Easy kill.
Borg: We are teh Borg. Resistance is Futile. Etc.
ISD: Ha! Very funny. We ask you to surrender.
Borg: *beams over 10 drones to the bridge*
*Stormtroopers shoot one, it falls, then shoot another, it falls, then the third one is adapted.*
*Borg walk in, assimilate everyone and ship, and boom! Turbolaser tech, hyperdrive tech, and the knowledge of the captain, etc. is all relayed back to the collective*
*As the ship was immediately destroyed and due to the fact that the Imperials are arrogant, it is easily surmised that most imperial captains will not raise shields until it is too late.*
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710913]Which episodes in TNG did the future federation come back in time to make something right?
I can think of several episodes where they didn't. The first I already mentioned (First contact) the other is the one where the earlier enterprise suddenly appeared from the past altering the time line and putting the federation on the brink of defeat with the klingons. I mean if there was ever a moment for intervention that would have been it no?
If the future feds wouldn't help prevent the defeat of federation from the klingon empire why should we believe they would for the imperial empire? Both would have been caused by temporal incursions.
There is one more thing we must consider. Lets say the empire strikes without warning hyper jumps into earth orbit unleashes massive fire power on many earth cities and kills a person's great grandfather who would have invented time travel for the future feds in the first place. The empire's first strike just killed any ability for the future feds to help. So I guess my next question is if a person is going to inlist help from the future I think they need to show that an initial attack didn't kill the grandparents of anyone critically important.
Or maybe the intial attack kills a Captain Picard type of the future and dooms the future feds along with the present ones....who can say what would happen. And thats why its just silly to rely on a future version of yourself to help you.[/QUOTE]
Because, the whole Yesterday's Enterprise thing was fixed up promptly. They knew there was a problem and they fixed it in every other occasion. The whole Relativity thing, though, couldnt be fixed by Voyager on their own resources, and needed help from the Timeship Relativity. The same with the Temporal Cold War. Who would expect the NX-01 to fight the war with no instructions?
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710913]
There is one more thing we must consider. Lets say the empire strikes without warning hyper jumps into earth orbit unleashes massive fire power on many earth cities and kills a person's great grandfather who would have invented time travel for the future feds in the first place. The empire's first strike just killed any ability for the future feds to help. So I guess my next question is if a person is going to inlist help from the future I think they need to show that an initial attack didn't kill the grandparents of anyone critically important.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JohnM81;1710913]
Or maybe the intial attack kills a Captain Picard type of the future and dooms the future feds along with the present ones....who can say what would happen. And thats why its just silly to rely on a future version of yourself to help you.[/QUOTE]
Nope, sorry, the Future Federation is canon and already exists.
The Future Federation has already put in safeguards against time incursions. Mainly Temporal Shielding. The Relativity is unaffected by even major changes in the timeline including the murder of the inventors of Temporal Shielding, or time travel mechanisms. The entire Future Federation would indeed dissipate were the Warsies to cause such an incursion, with the exception of the Relativity (the only ship seen with the tech, but we can assume there should be more than one).
Since Warsies have zero experience with time travel, it'd be an easy feat for one officer from the Relativity to transport to every ISD in your incursion (of course a second out of phase with their timeflow), plant a literal time bomb (again out of phase with the Warsies' timeflow)...undetectable by the temporally-challenged sensors of the ISDs or whatever ship you like...and blow them to space dust, before they have a chance to inflict any of the above incursions you listed.
The Future Federation is Trek's trump card, there is no Warsie way to overcome it.
The future federation ONLY gets involved when they are needed... in First Contact, Picard was able to handle it. Granted, just barely... but he was.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1711279]The future federation ONLY gets involved when they are needed... in First Contact, Picard was able to handle it. Granted, just barely... but he was.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
It was the same with the Pacifist in the 1930s, and all the other time travel ones since the ones involved fixed it.
Only...1,000 ships in the Federation fleet? That's just stupid.
Star Fleet's total ship production over 300 years has been 78,000 ships! From 6,000 to 78,000 ships were created after Kirk's time to current.
That means it took only 86 years to produce 72,000 ships.
THAT'S 837 ships a year!
G2K has a fairly accurate count of 10,000 to 15,000 ships spread out over 1,500 ly. This exludes small and non combat vessels and the limitation of hull life.
I say even that is a small estimate but not far off at all.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1711780]Only...1,000 ships in the Federation fleet? That's just stupid.
Star Fleet's total ship production over 300 years has been 78,000 ships! From 6,000 to 78,000 ships were created after Kirk's time to current.
That means it took only 86 years to produce 72,000 ships.
THAT'S 837 ships a year!
G2K has a fairly accurate count of 10,000 to 15,000 ships spread out over 1,500 ly. This exludes small and non combat vessels and the limitation of hull life.
I say even that is a small estimate but not far off at all.[/QUOTE]
No... Han Solo calls the Empire fleet as "starfleet". That is all I was refering to.
Han Solo: The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've... there's another ship comin' in!