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[QUOTE=Prince_James]
Saturating space to hit a large object isn't too difficult.[/quote]
Unfortunately, ships aren't large on the necessary scale required.
[quote]
SW has tachyon sensors, and ST cloaks tend to be able to be picked up by tachyon detection methods.
SW does have extensive sensor capacity in real space, so I doubt a real-space FTL ship would not be found.
[/quote]
I'll take your word for it. I'm no longer as well versed in the lore of both Universes as I once was in younger days.
[quote]
Although to note, the quantum slipstream drive is significantly slower than most hyperspace drives:
[/quote]
No argument here from me.
[quote]
This is a compelling argument. It would seem the best bet for SW would be to rely on hyperspace weaponary to deal with it.[/quote]
Indeed. And that's for a ST ship moving at less than 4 [i]c[/i]. If you accept the so-called 'TNG warp scale' as a valid point then, at least for the UFP (and I really hate to have to use a singular example, but there you have it), cruise speed is on the order of 400 to 500 [i]c[/i]. And that would logically get much faster as the ship approaches the target.
[quote]If all the crew members are in stasis, no one would be in control of the ship. The ship would be on autopilot and clearly the Fed does not have sophisticated enough autopilot to fight its battles for it, otherwise I'm sure the Fed would have autopilot warships.[/QUOTE]
Most of the mission will not be under combat conditions. Thus, automated ship systems will suffice with a minimum of crew participation. Unless you count sophisticated holograms or AI as crew, and there have been instances of such things in ST (admitedly to varying degrees of effectiveness.)
Instances that come to mind are the EMH program (later upgraded to ECH standard), Cardassian 'Dreadnought' (glorified description for an AI-controlled kamikaze warship), Druoda AI-controlled interstellar missile (just to show that such things are not limited to near-UFP space).
Strangely, the UFP [i]does[/i] have the technology to create a totally 'artificial' crew. The stumbling point has more to do with the philosophy rather than the engineering.
(I shake my head in disbelief at all of those episodes where holograms, or other computer-based units, become bona-fide lifeforms and individuals in their own right. Defies belief, in my opinion, but it's canon... unfortunately.)
(Although when you think about it, if you put holoemitters all over your ship, you wouldn't need the holo-people anyway. The holoemitters could carry tools and press buttons by themselves since holograms are nothing more than manipulated tractor beams and forcefields.)
One could, therefore, have an AI running the ship. However, if reliability is a stumbling point, one can always have the crew put on an 'awake/sleep' rotation. Year 1, persons 1 through 5 are awake. Year 2, persons 6 through 10. Year 3, persons 11 through 15. And so on and so forth.
The theoretical maximum duration of the mission would then be determined by the size of the crew, the average viable time of each crew member, the rate of rotation, and the number of people actually awake at one time.
So if a ship has a crew of 100, the rate of rotation is 1 year, each person has 50 years of useful years left in their lifespan, and 4 people are awake at one time, the total crew endurance would be in excess of 1200 years.
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Wolverine would destroy all of them. He has a healing factor and his skin is made of adamantium, therefore he is INDESTRUCTIBLE!
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Wolveriene's pants to a sith lord or jedi master, they'd just choke him to death with the force through his adamantium skin before his claws even popped out.
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He'd cut his throat out and regenerate it.
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Sorry RAW, but you've forgotten to take his X-MEN comrades into account! Iceman would blast him with an ICE-BEAM while Cyclops would blast him before he even knew what hit him, all the while Wolverine would recover long enough to go into his BERSERKER BARRAGE and cut Darth Vader to ribbons!
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jedi are NOT industructable. they cant win every single battle becuae they have the force!!! thats just stupid,they all died in the end,proving they can be beaten with conventional weapons and tactics.
.
you need to quite smokin so much :m: and get with reality.
JEDI DIE JUST LIKE ALL CARBON BASED LIFEFORMS!!!!!THEY ARE NOT THE GODS OF THE UNIVERSE!!!!
the q continuim are. hell, vyger,from the first start trek movie would wipe out
anything sw could throw at it,and phasers disintagrate jedi just as fast as anything else.
your stupid argument relies soley on the bases that anything with the force become completly imortal and immune from any and all attacks.
well its not true,jedi die,storm trooper are the worst aim in the galaxy,and palpatine is not the most brilliant/corrupt tactical mind in the universe.
how about actualy having EVIDENCE to back up your stupid claims about the jedi and the empire,in the end they both LOST,all that was left was ahandfull of rebels and luke.proving both sides can easily be beaten with conventional weaponry and tactics.
now how about a comeback based on FACTS,without saying the force makes you invoulnerable to everything.[because it doesnt]
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[QUOTE=Frisbinator]Wolverine would destroy all of them. He has a healing factor and his skin is made of adamantium, therefore he is INDESTRUCTIBLE![/QUOTE]
Sift some pages back. Comic heros were excluded from the debate because there is truely no limit to what the mind can make up for them to be able to do.
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then sw shouldnt be in the debate either. all there stuff is just made up.
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So is the stuff in Star Trek.
What's your point?
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most of the stuff in star trek exsists.
we almost have replicaters.[3d printers]
cominicaters are everywhere[cellphone]
transporters are in the works,they can transport single atoms.
nanobots are almost a reality[two major breakthrous in the last 2 monthes]
now,mydoclordia are complete made up crap,telechenisis is fake and scientificly immpossible,light sabers are ridiculous[what makes them stop?].
so tell me agian how star trek is not real.
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[QUOTE=mars13]
we almost have replicaters.[3d printers]
[/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printer[/url]
This does not describe a Star Trek replicator in the slightest, neither in the processes involved nor in the results.
[quote]cominicaters are everywhere[cellphone][/quote]
So? ST does not have a monopoly on such things. SW has those too.
[quote]transporters are in the works,they can transport single atoms.[/quote]
You misunderstand what quantum teleportation does and how it does it. To cut it down succinctly: quantum teleportation does not move an object from one point to another.
[quote]nanobots are almost a reality[two major breakthrous in the last 2 monthes][/quote]
Again, something that ST does not have a monopoly on.
[quote]now,mydoclordia are complete made up crap,telechenisis is fake and scientificly immpossible,light sabers are ridiculous[what makes them stop?].[/quote]
That is true.
(Except for the light saber. It is [i]not[/i] a laser sword, just as blasters and turbolasers are not lasers either.)
However, I doubt you stopped to think about the implausible things that ST has as well.
Time travel (in loads)
Telekinesis (refer to TOS episode "Plato's Stepchildren")
Phase cloaked people who can go through walls but not through floors (And how do they breathe? The world wonders...)
Plasma torpedoes.
Also, ST wins hands down when it comes to unscientific technobabble and solutions. (Classic example is the 'navigational deflector that does everything but deflect' as the old joke goes.)
Searching invariably turns up a lot of stuff in ST to nitpick about as well.
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Face it, when put under the microscope, lashed with Logic, dragged before the Tribunal of Self-Consistancy, challenged by the dieties of Capability and Implication, all space operas fall apart. Some resist longer than others depending on how concientious their creators were, but in the end they all fail.
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but you have to admit,without star trek,we wouldnt have alot of technology we use evryday.tons of trek science fiction is now science fact.
art imtating life or life imatating art?
st had square flat disks to store information[ floppy drive]
it also had electronic clipboards to physicaly show info[tablet pc]
comunicaters on st were around long before sw,and cell phones even look like the comunicaters!
there is also a food printer in the works,it prints flavored edible sheets of whatever you want.
and most of the people who build and design this stuff were influenced by st.
the only piece of technology that is unique in sw is the light saber,and thats just an electric sword.
you have to admit that st has advanced technology for more then any othe science fiction in history,except maybe juelse verne.
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mars13:
[QUOTE]storm trooper vs ewok=ewoks win
ewoks vs red shirts=1-3 dead redshirts ,entire ewok race wiped out
red shorts vs storm troopers=endless dead ensigns but the bridge crew kills the strorm troopers. [/QUOTE]
Since you make ridiculous arguments based on "The Fed always wins!", I am going to pull out another "infallible" Trek truth: Red shirts ALWAYS die. So in fact, if you pit them against a cockroach, they will die. I'm pretty sure Coruscant alone has 23243242340938294322 trillion cockroaches, so Star Trek is -screwed-.
kv1at3485:
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, ships aren't large on the necessary scale required.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but we have not taken into consideration manueverability at Warp. There is no way a ship, pilotted by humanoids, is going to be able to manuevre to swerve out of the way at a speed of a few hundred times C in time to miss leading shots from thousands of turbolaser, laser, and other weaponary.
[QUOTE]Indeed. And that's for a ST ship moving at less than 4 c. If you accept the so-called 'TNG warp scale' as a valid point then, at least for the UFP (and I really hate to have to use a singular example, but there you have it), cruise speed is on the order of 400 to 500 c. And that would logically get much faster as the ship approaches the target.[/QUOTE]
Yes, which does pose a problem. They'd have to be detected significantly far away and their projected course calculated to within enough accuracy to saturate the area, then hope that something actually hits it.
[QUOTE]Most of the mission will not be under combat conditions. Thus, automated ship systems will suffice with a minimum of crew participation. Unless you count sophisticated holograms or AI as crew, and there have been instances of such things in ST (admitedly to varying degrees of effectiveness.)[/QUOTE]
Considering how slow the standard warp engine would be, this leaves SW plenty of time to attack when they feel they have the best chance.
[QUOTE]Instances that come to mind are the EMH program (later upgraded to ECH standard), Cardassian 'Dreadnought' (glorified description for an AI-controlled kamikaze warship), Druoda AI-controlled interstellar missile (just to show that such things are not limited to near-UFP space).
Strangely, the UFP does have the technology to create a totally 'artificial' crew. The stumbling point has more to do with the philosophy rather than the engineering.[/QUOTE]
It depends: Which AI are we speaking of? EMH/ECH AI? Or Data AI? The EMH/ECH wasn't too sophisticated outside of medicine and, before receiving the 30th century tech, could not leave the holodeck.
[QUOTE](I shake my head in disbelief at all of those episodes where holograms, or other computer-based units, become bona-fide lifeforms and individuals in their own right. Defies belief, in my opinion, but it's canon... unfortunately.)[/QUOTE]
ST has that problem of having -really- crap writers at time. But considering the travesty which was the Vong series of books for SW...so does SW.
[QUOTE](Although when you think about it, if you put holoemitters all over your ship, you wouldn't need the holo-people anyway. The holoemitters could carry tools and press buttons by themselves since holograms are nothing more than manipulated tractor beams and forcefields.)
One could, therefore, have an AI running the ship. However, if reliability is a stumbling point, one can always have the crew put on an 'awake/sleep' rotation. Year 1, persons 1 through 5 are awake. Year 2, persons 6 through 10. Year 3, persons 11 through 15. And so on and so forth.
The theoretical maximum duration of the mission would then be determined by the size of the crew, the average viable time of each crew member, the rate of rotation, and the number of people actually awake at one time.
So if a ship has a crew of 100, the rate of rotation is 1 year, each person has 50 years of useful years left in their lifespan, and 4 people are awake at one time, the total crew endurance would be in excess of 1200 years. [/QUOTE]
Psychological and physiological considerations would have to be considered for the non-AI crewmembers. I doubt many humanoids would cumulatively desire to be detached from their normal timeframe for hundreds of years. But yes, it is a possibility.
mars13:
[QUOTE]jedi are NOT industructable. they cant win every single battle becuae they have the force!!! thats just stupid,they all died in the end,proving they can be beaten with conventional weapons and tactics.
.
you need to quite smokin so much and get with reality.
JEDI DIE JUST LIKE ALL CARBON BASED LIFEFORMS!!!!!THEY ARE NOT THE GODS OF THE UNIVERSE!!!![/QUOTE]
No one is saying they are. But a single Jedi can reach Demi-Godlike powers.
[QUOTE]the q continuim are. hell, vyger,from the first start trek movie would wipe out
anything sw could throw at it,and phasers disintagrate jedi just as fast as anything else.[/QUOTE]
Actually, some Jedi can absorb and redirect energy back. Yoda does this in two of the prequels against Dark Force Lightning.
Ontop of that, the -Q do not interfere-. Q would be stopped by the rest of the Continuum.
[QUOTE]your stupid argument relies soley on the bases that anything with the force become completly imortal and immune from any and all attacks.[/QUOTE]
Since when? We're more focusing on technology, actually.
[QUOTE]well its not true,jedi die,storm trooper are the worst aim in the galaxy,and palpatine is not the most brilliant/corrupt tactical mind in the universe.[/QUOTE]
Jedi do die. Your point? And Storm Troopers, once again, are -not- the worse aim in the galaxy.
[QUOTE]how about actualy having EVIDENCE to back up your stupid claims about the jedi and the empire,in the end they both LOST,all that was left was ahandfull of rebels and luke.proving both sides can easily be beaten with conventional weaponry and tactics.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that the Empire, if it had an heir to the throne, would have been utterly fine, yes? Just the Deathstar and the emperor were destroyed, -not- the empire.
mars13:
[QUOTE]now,mydoclordia are complete made up crap,telechenisis is fake and scientificly immpossible,light sabers are ridiculous[what makes them stop?].[/QUOTE]
Okay, and Klingons, Vulcans, Betazeds, et cetera, are not "made up"? You do realize there are also hundreds of ST species with telekinesis and other psychic powers, right? And scientifically impossible? Yeah, um, can you provide some proof of that? Because last I checked, science has done very few experiments regarding telekinesis. And as to lightsabres? No more ridiculous than "vapourized" bodies with no vapour, or other anomalies of phasers.
kv1at3485:
[QUOTE]Also, ST wins hands down when it comes to unscientific technobabble and solutions. (Classic example is the 'navigational deflector that does everything but deflect' as the old joke goes.)[/QUOTE]
Don't forget the baryon cleaning of the Enterprise.
mars13:
[QUOTE]but you have to admit,without star trek,we wouldnt have alot of technology we use evryday.tons of trek science fiction is now science fact.
art imtating life or life imatating art?
st had square flat disks to store information[ floppy drive]
it also had electronic clipboards to physicaly show info[tablet pc]
comunicaters on st were around long before sw,and cell phones even look like the comunicaters![/QUOTE]
No, we don't have to admit, because this is nonsense.
Square flat-disks to store information? It's called a punchcard drive.
Electronic clipboards? Been around for a while.
Communicators were essentially meant to be "space age" wireless telephones. That our telephones have roughly the same shape does not mean a thing, since the best shape for such things -would- be that.
[QUOTE]there is also a food printer in the works,it prints flavored edible sheets of whatever you want.[/QUOTE]
Link.
[QUOTE]the only piece of technology that is unique in sw is the light saber,and thats just an electric sword.[/QUOTE]
How about the blaster? How about hyperdrive? How about the turbolaser?
[QUOTE]you have to admit that st has advanced technology for more then any othe science fiction in history,except maybe juelse verne. [/QUOTE]
Save it hasn't. Ever.
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The food printers are hardly replicators. They take pre-existing material and mix it together. It's about as futuristic as baking.
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have you ever even seen an episode of startrek?ensigns dont always die, there are thousands of ensigns who didnt die as opssed to the 1 you see die every other episode.
did you see the first movie?
vyger was 87 lightyears wide! nothing that sw could throw at it would even have an effect. but the enterprise stopped it.
its either luck or skill that the enterprise ALWAYS survives in the end. and it doesnt matter either way.
your entire notion that st has never seen anything like sw tech is based soley on prejudice. its sw that has never seen the variaty of beings in the st galaxy.
heres alist of beings/tech sw has never seen anything like before...
q continium[they WOULD get involved ,or at least q would]
borg[id like to see the empire stop the borg, they can beam throu shields and implant nanites into what ever they want,if they deam you a threat,they will do anything ot destroy you,even time travel]
vyger[from somehwere else,unstoppable by any known weaponry,bigger then most solar sytems]
transporters[they have never seen any tech like this before,and if someone is beamed their weapons can be changed to not function and mydoclordia can be filter out,making them unarmed forceless humaniods]]
phasers[they completly disintegrate anything!regardless of your claims ,they will destroy jedi,and jedi cannot reflect phaser fire,blasters are very old tech in st and are obsolete,blasters are the equavalent of single shot revolvers vs modern assault rifles.a phaser can be set on maximumthen made to fire a continuos beam and used as a giant miles long lightsaber that can disintagrate anything but force fields,just becuse they dont show this on the sho doesnt mean they cant do it,it IS within the phasers capabilities]
shapeshifters[ only jedi would be able to tell them from anyone else]
species 8472[ good luck storm fodders]
and st has genetic enginered clone armies as well,[they just outlawed making them becaus of moral reasons,but the program could be restarted with centuries new tech in a matter of weeks,only there clones can not be detected by sensors and can have redundant organs that make physical attacks almost useless,several humaniod species have to be completly disintagrated to kill them]
trans warp[just as fast as hyper drive except you phase from this dimension and exsist everywhere at once]
and jedi can only reach demigod status? well st come across species that view us as bacteria,at least 3-5 species known to st have the ability to change time space at will,they can manipulate what ever they want ,that includes ALL carbon based life forms,the strongest jedi are just slightly bigger bacteria to them.
sw is out classed against some of the most powerful species in the st galaxy ,and if sw is trying to take over the st galaxy then they must conquor ALL the species of st. more then one is unstoppable by anything known to sw or the feds.
how do you stop beings that exsist in other dimensions and can control any time space they wish? the force is useless against them, the biggest most powerful weapons in sw are not even specs to them.
its sw that has never seen anything like the st galaxy.
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[QUOTE=mars13]
vyger was 87 lightyears wide! nothing that sw could throw at it would even have an effect. but the enterprise stopped it.[/QUOTE]
The V'ger cloud was originally stated as 82 [i]AU[/i]'s in diameter, not [i]light years.[/i].
However, this was later reduced to only 2 AU's.
V'ger itself, the actual spacecraft, was only about 200 km long. One will also note that V'ger's objective was not to destroy everything in its path (at least not consciously.)
If V'ger had been out to kill everything and everyone, Kirk and Co. would have been toast very quickly. It was only because Kirk and Co. showed themselves to be conductive towards V'ger's purposes that the space-probe-turned-super-intelligent-being allowed them to live.
(And note that Kirk and Co. didn't really stop V'ger. They really just helped it along to achieve its goal. It just happens to be in the end, everyone wins. Earth, V'ger, the lot of them. A very Star Trekkian idea if you ask me.)
I am dismayed by how you've misrepresented (IMHO) [i]the[/i] best ST film ever. Not to mention your general lack of knowledge of the ST lore.
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[QUOTE=Prince_James]
Ah, but we have not taken into consideration manueverability at Warp. There is no way a ship, pilotted by humanoids, is going to be able to manuevre to swerve out of the way at a speed of a few hundred times C in time to miss leading shots from thousands of turbolaser, laser, and other weaponary.[/quote]
To lead a shot that would have a remote chance of hitting, the firing vessels would need to be almost right along the flight path of the ship (which would be in the shape of a gradually widening funnel.)
As an attack run at high warp will take the warping ship well above and below the plane of the star system, there will be far too much volume to cover (the attacking ship will be able to choose a different vector to bypass hostile concentrations) and the time it takes for the attacker to pass 'over' will be measured in deci-seconds, if not less. (In fact, that infintisimal time is the reason the defenders will literally need to 'line up' to hit the warping ship.)
And this isn't even accounting for from how far the attacker can launch the necessary ordnance into the star. Torpedoes, after all, have quite a bit of range themselves when launched at warp, and one is not likely to miss a star.
[quote]Considering how slow the standard warp engine would be, this leaves SW plenty of time to attack when they feel they have the best chance.[/quote]
While the ship is in FTL transit, it is practically invincible, short of a a rather large number of Galaxy Gun-like systems (which will still be of dubious value.)
There will be very few times during the trip that a warp-capable ship will be vulnerable to conventional attack.
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As for how slow a standard warp engine is, you might be surprised with what you can do with a little know-how. As a bit of trivia, the original Enterprise was supposedly capable of getting to the Andromeda galaxy in 300 years with some modifications that were carried out (under duress) by the crew. (Refer to TOS episode "By Any Other Name".)
But I digress.
[quote]It depends: Which AI are we speaking of? EMH/ECH AI? Or Data AI? The EMH/ECH wasn't too sophisticated outside of medicine and, before receiving the 30th century tech, could not leave the holodeck.[/quote]
The ECH was competent enough to tackle repair operations (it can access the computer database after all) and 'hold down the fort', just about the only skills needed if the ship is just cruising along doing nothing particularly challenging.
The 30th century tech merely resulted in the mobile emitter. A vessel could easily be outfitted with integrated emitters throughout the ship.
[quote]Don't forget the baryon cleaning of the Enterprise.[/quote]
:o D'oh. Forgot about that obvious one. But yeah, the writers broke out the :m: stash again that day.
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[quote]phasers[they completly disintegrate anything!regardless of your claims ,they will destroy jedi,and jedi cannot reflect phaser fire,blasters are very old tech in st and are obsolete,blasters are the equavalent of single shot revolvers vs modern assault rifles.a phaser can be set on maximumthen made to fire a continuos beam and used as a giant miles long lightsaber that can disintagrate anything but force fields,just becuse they dont show this on the sho doesnt mean they cant do it,it IS within the phasers capabilities][/quote]
Whats to stop the jedi from just dodging the phaser? The precognition they have in deflecting/dodging blasters has nothing to do with seeing where its going (assuming your argument has to do with phasers speed of light attack [which i think seeing episodes, you can see the beam moving, so it has to be slower than c]) but rather their ability to sense imminent danger, or some sort of mind reading of the others intent.
In addition, blasters are always being remade better and more efficient. Havnt you read the books? Just because somethings old tech doesnt make it useless. Thats like saying modern assault rifles are useless because they are decendents of front loading muskets. Also, phasers tend to run out of juice when you do crazy shit with them, and I've never once seen anything about 'miles wide light saber action', that seems a little fanciful on your part. On the show it shows them shooting their own shuttle craft (that episode where the bajoran pretends to be the captured run away of some cardassian spy and they have to fake an escape) and doing little more damage than some burn marks. Thats with a phaser rifle. They shoot in the ship all the time, on maximum. It makes little burn marks on the walls. They shoot each other, it makes a glowing mark on their chest. No burn or anything, apparently it passes through clothing and only effects humanoid flesh? Maximum usually means its going to kill someone, only certain weapons used by other races (klingons, romulans) actually disentegrate people.
[quote]sw is out classed against some of the most powerful species in the st galaxy ,and if sw is trying to take over the st galaxy then they must conquor ALL the species of st. more then one is unstoppable by anything known to sw or the feds.[/quote]
Not true. They only have to worry about species that oppose them.
Anyways, we could just make those Solo brats shoot the Centerpoint Station gun threw the hearts of all the ST galaxies suns for the worlds that oppose them, that would end it right quick. Nothing you could do to stop that, or even really anticipate it.
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If you recall, Luke could block blasters blindfolded.
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Good God, I forgot about Centerpoint. Anyway...
There are multiple shapeshifting races throughout Star Wars, the most powerful being the Shi-ido, who could take any form from 1 cubic meter to something like 3000 cubic meters.
I already dealt with Q a long time ago. A sect of Force monks could displace or destroy matter or energy with a thought, and anyone could learn to use this power if they joined the monks.
There are hundreds of races in Star Wars that are well-documented, as well as many more that merely exist but haven't been brought into view.
I believe it was previously determined that the borg were susceptible to physical weapons. Something about one of the major Trek officers tearing a bunch apart with a machine gun. Physical weapons are in high supply throughout the galaxy.
The Stormtroopers were not accurately represented in the movies...read some books. They were highly trained fighting machines, and inspired fear throughout the galaxy.
The Yuuzhan Vong easily have federation ships outmatched with their ability to use gravity as a weapon, to absorb high amounts of energy to strengthen the creature, and to as a last resort create black holes out of themselves. And those volcano cannons hurt.
And why would you think a transporter would remove midichlorians? They are part of the lifeforms' bodies. And, even if you somehow could, not only is a Jedi trained to function in cases where the Force is useless, but there is far more to Star Wars than the Force. A battalion of Wookies armed with Bowcasters and Ryyk Blades could easily take on a similar sized group of Klingon warriors in an equal environment.
Oh, and I don't think anyone advocated Palpatine was the biggest baddest tactician or Sith...look at Thrawn and Darth Bane, respectively.
