Star Wars vs Star Trek

[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1493987]This tells me that the capital ships weapons are next to useless. Or they have godawful aim.



No, it's just that I clearly don't have the imagination that you do, and can't visualize shields onscreen that do not protect ship hulls.

(Side note: Stargate shields operate similar to Trek. As did ID4. i.e. they were evident!)

PS...Wars shields from what I've seen are only used in such circumstances as holding the pressure in an airlock/docking bay or keeping lifeforms away from dangerous power plants (eg where the Darth Maul fight took place). That'd be a use for a shield generator other than battle shields.[/QUOTE]

Dude. Everyone except you agrees that SW has shields.
Just leave it at that/

The Von neumann mines you mean? It is realtively simeple to fix that problem. They relie on materials to make copys. No materials, no copys, which makes it like any other naval minefield.

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1494053]The Von neumann mines you mean? It is realtively simeple to fix that problem. They relie on materials to make copys. No materials, no copys, which makes it like any other naval minefield.[/QUOTE]

It uses debris from destroyed mines to self-replicate. It has a beaming mechanism to beam the debris and use it to make another mine.
The ONLY way to destroy it is use the way Damar developed, and SW engineers have NO EXPERIENCE with ST cloaking or ST self-replication.


Btw. How will the Empire contend with Romulan personal cloaking devices?
Or even the much-more-advanced Voth cloaking devices?

SW does have experience with cloaking. And they do have self replicating things. A World Devastator can create another one if it gets enough materiels to build another. They are esseintially Giant, Robotic, Factories. However there is one key diffrence from the mines. They will "eat" a ship, for lack of a better term, and use its materiels to build starships or to add on to itself. And the Federation would likely mistake it for a Borg ship, as it looks like two cubes fused together with a long rectangle. Of course, I'm talking about the stock version. No two "mature" Devastators are exactly alike. The largest one ever destroyed was about the size of the Executor. If any ship gets near this, extreamly powerful tractor beams rip the ship apart and the materials inside it go into a kind of giant replicator.

As for the tractor beam remark, the engines of the Tantive IV were not disabled. The tractor beams were already pulling the thing in, as evidenced by the fact that normally, an ISD can never hope to catch a Blockade Runner, but they had managed to get a tractor beam on it to pull the thing into it hanger.

Also, SW does have personal cloaking. They have personell cloaking units that can be mounted on your arm and are about the size of an armband.

I thought of an awesome tactic against SW.
In SW, you can only travel between 2 stars. You cant go to the void in between stars.
So, ST mines hyperspace routes between stars and SW can NEVER get to them...

The Federation wouldnt mistake a World Devastator for a cube. All Borg vessels are geometric shapes. Never "2 cubes fused together" etc.

Do those cloaking devices make someone completely invisible? Because in the MOVIE, the FALCON was too small to cloak. I HIGHLY doubt that an armband is large enough to cloak something 100x its size. The Falcon was too small to cloak, indicating that cloaking devices are HUGE. Not armband quality. The Movie contradicts your source.
Sorry.

A personell and shipboard cloak is compleatly different. A shipboard requiers tremendous amounts of energy. A armband, not nearly as much since its only covering about a 2-3 meter tall area. If they can only travel between two stars, then how come they can fall out of Hyperspace in the middle of nowhere? The Maw is an area surrounded by artifical black holes. Those are not stars. And yet they can fall out there. Or theres the fact the the rebel rendevous after hoth was in the middle of nowhere. A World Devastator would likely foll the fedreation becuase it is a geometric shape. It looks like two cubes with a long rectangle connecting them. Kind of like a dumbell that has cube ends and a square bar.

how can you possibly have 328 pages about Star Trek?????

[QUOTE=shorty_37;1494417]how can you possibly have 328 pages about Star Trek?????[/QUOTE]

is it funny or sad? I haven't decided yet. Oh, yes i have. SAD!!! And this is why I could never live alone. I would devolve into this and bore myself silly.

I wanna know how many have a costume.

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1494402]The Maw is an area surrounded by artifical black holes. Those are not stars. And yet they can fall out there. [/QUOTE]

I meant to say.
You can only travel between two presences or Gravity.
The more the gravity, the easier it is to drop out.
If you drop out in the "middle of nowhere", you lose your way VERY EASILY. Thats why nobody could find the Katana Fleet. It was stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Also, The Federation wont get Borg signatures from the cube. ST tech can scan stuff MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY.
They wont notice a transwarp drive.
No Borg Drones.

[QUOTE]I wanna know how many have a costume.[/QUOTE]
I cant find a Starfleet Command Uniform. Or a Science Uniform with the pips and all.
Anyone know where?

Yes, when half the people on here are trolls.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1494435]...I cant find a Starfleet Command Uniform. Or a Science Uniform with the pips and all.
Anyone know where?[/QUOTE]

the whole wide world at your finger tips and you can't find one?
Are Command Uniforms always red?

[QUOTE=Orleander;1494439]the whole wide world at your finger tips and you can't find one?
Are Command Uniforms always red?[/QUOTE]

Yeah.
Except TOS... which sucks...

Yes....yes it does.

Now about the wiki. Does it have any pages in it yet?

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1494330]SW does have experience with cloaking. And they do have self replicating things. A World Devastator can create another one if it gets enough materiels to build another. They are esseintially Giant, Robotic, Factories. However there is one key diffrence from the mines. They will "eat" a ship, for lack of a better term, and use its materiels to build starships or to add on to itself. And the Federation would likely mistake it for a Borg ship, as it looks like two cubes fused together with a long rectangle. Of course, I'm talking about the stock version. No two "mature" Devastators are exactly alike. The largest one ever destroyed was about the size of the Executor. If any ship gets near this, extreamly powerful tractor beams rip the ship apart and the materials inside it go into a kind of giant replicator.

As for the tractor beam remark, the engines of the Tantive IV were not disabled. The tractor beams were already pulling the thing in, as evidenced by the fact that normally, an ISD can never hope to catch a Blockade Runner, but they had managed to get a tractor beam on it to pull the thing into it hanger.

Also, SW does have personal cloaking. They have personell cloaking units that can be mounted on your arm and are about the size of an armband.[/QUOTE]

Then that would be a huge contradiction in canon.
Cloaking devices according to several books and the movies are huge and cumbersome starting with the Empire Strikes Back and continuing on from Heir to the Empire.

If it is true then these personal cloaking devices must be incredibly limited and inferrior to the known trek cloaking devices. Cloaking has never been a Star Wars feat of technology.

The stygium ones were perfect, until they ran out crystals, just like we're gonna run out of oil someday.

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1494571]The stygium ones were perfect, until they ran out crystals, just like we're gonna run out of oil someday.[/QUOTE]

That also means that the Empire has no access until after Endor, and the New Republic has no access since nobody is allowed to use it under the New Republic. Thats a very short time-bracket for the use of Stygium.
Stygium-based cloaks are EXTREMELY rare.

Stygium doesnt work at all anyway in personal cloaking devices since the cloaks that are "too large" are stygium based. Darth Maul's ship was stygium based. And the Scimitar was infused with the Dark Side of the Force, making it the smallest cloaked ship in canon.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1493053]AND the writer of the book is involved in many ST vs. SW debates, throwing his credibility from a Torpedo Tube while traveling at Warp 9.975[/QUOTE]

Doesn't matter if he was involved in debates. His work is considered canon now. Suck it up like a man.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1493056]Wrong. Remember. The Empire has to defend 1.5+ million worlds from Borg Drones which will inevitable come AND attack the Milky Way. If even one planet falls to the Borg, within a month, atleast 5 more cubes will come from there. So on and so forth, the Borg will take over the entire SW Galaxy in search for new technology and alien life.

You HAVE TO REMEMBER that 25,000 ISDs spread over 1.5 million worlds = very vulnerable Empire. They have to enforce the fear in the galaxy far far away AND attack the Milky Way. Impossible. Their resources are WAY too overstretched.[/quote]

You are assuming that 25,000 ISDs is all the Empire has. It isn't there are tens of thousands of VSDs, hundred of tousands of Carrack Strike cruisers, hundreds of thousands of Nebulan-B Frigates, millions of Corellian Corvettes, Tens of thousands of other models of star destroyers, hundreds of thousands of captital ship of past eras that are still in use.

I am not including fighters, shuttles, bulk frieghters, skipray blast boats and so on. Nor did I include SSDs, Battlemoons, Torpedo Spheres or anything that isn't Imperial Navy.

Now many of SW important planets have defensive sttelites as well, carrying firepower enough to give ISD's pause. Any settlement has ground based weaponry like the Ion Cannon on Hoth, Hyper velocity guns or planetary Turbolasers.

Now since you seem to have all the lower races of ST working together that means that SW has the Imperials and Rebels working together, with Chiss, Hapan, Vong, Ssisruu(sp?) and Hutts. Hell even the pirates and smugglers would be helping since you assume the same for ST. This means and enormous increase in manpower, and available materiel. And with the horrendous speed advantage SW will have in it's own galaxy (Borg have no conduits laid and Voth transpwarp is never explained) any attack on a planet will be forecast accurately. Allowing SW to meet the invaders with overwhelming force.


[quote]What did we decide about Q?[/QUOTE]

By all accounts of canon, they would find the war an amusing diversion, exspecially since ringleaders of both sides would be human.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1494257]Btw. How will the Empire contend with Romulan personal cloaking devices?
Or even the much-more-advanced Voth cloaking devices?[/QUOTE]

Quite easily, for some reason SW sensors can pick up force signatures of beings. (Novelization of TPM when Darth Maul programmed the probe droid to look for two strong presences in the force.)

SW also has a propensity for simple mechanism for booby traps, like pressure plates. Or worse laser eyes as cloaking fiels would scramble that. Plus there are a variety of races in Star trek with enhanced senses that could easily smell someone in a cloak.

[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1493808]TW Sweetie...clearly you have a problem with the English language. When I say writers "intend" I was supporting my statament that you cannot plausibly know what distance a curvature route is on a monitor/tv screen. Only the episode's creators can tell you what distance is actually meant - if they even considered it at all, the depth perception, not to mention camera motion will make your estimate next to useless.[/quote]

I think they threw away the wrong thing at your birth. Okay for the umpteenth time. In an argument such as this you use [B]suspension of disbelief[/B]. That means what you see on screen is reality. You completly cut the writers, actors, directors, tech people, and producers out of the equations. You treat the subject, for the purposes of this argument only, as if it was filmed directly as it happened. That means you base your arguments off of what is seen. The moment you find yourself relying on something outside of canon, your argument fails.

Unlike you I know how to use the geometry I learned. The Jem H'dar fighter did not move more than 4 times it's own length in one second. Assuming it was larger than normal still means that the fastest i can credit it with is 1 kms or 3600 kmh.

[QUOTE]This sounds contrived and ridiculous. You mean to say that a capital ship would have major holes in shields (that only you and one other assert, since many of us see no shielding), not to mention unable to fire successfully on the fighter?[/QUOTE]

First of all the Trade Federation Battleship was simply and adhoc warship. No different than if you took a super tanker and slapped on some armor and weapons. Effective becuase you could add so much stuff, but still falwed as it was not build for that job. We know that the ship had shields becuase two other pilots were complaining thair their weaponry was no match for the shield. Since not many people I know would fire at the hangar, Anakin's ship found one of the chinks in the military grade shields.

And I never said a capital ship would have holes, just the ad hoc units created by the Trade Federation.


[QUOTE]Yet another contrived excuse for weak defenses. This also shows bad leadership. Cutting corners on a military machine????[/QUOTE]

Actually our congress does this to our military all the time.

The point is that a fighter was considered no threat. Yes they were tearing up surface implacement, but they could have fired all day and all week and NEVER have been a serious threat to the Death Star except by that one exhaust port. Since a fighter was not seen as a threat they decided to save the cost of a few planetary shield generator and the computers and personelle to make them overlap with the ones they did have.


[quote]Actually, I'm well aware of the size of the ships. Defiant is 120m, Sabers are 364m, BoPs are 110m. My point was TW, that [I]by visuals[/I], Wars capital ships are extremely vulnerable to losing to the underdog. A BoP or two would probably fly low on a Darth's SSD (I say "a" Darth since Vader is dead) and fire a lucky torpedo into some sort of hole that would cause a destructive cascading effect.[/QUOTE]

Defiant: 120 meters long and ~60 meters wide and ~18 meters tall
Saber: ~364 meters long and ~225 meter wide and ~50 meters tall
Klingon Bird of Prey: 110 meters long and ~150 meter wide and ~18 meters tall.
A-Wing: 9.6 meters long and 6.48 meters wide and 2 meters tall. Acceleration 5,100G
X-wing: 12.5 meters long and 16 meters wide and 2 meters tall. Accelleration 3,700G
Y-wing: 16 meters long and 12 meters wide and 2 meters tall. Accelleration 2,700G
CEC CR90 Corvette: 150 meters long and 48.6 meters wide and 33 meters tall. Acceleration 2,100G

Now since the movies prove that by ROTJ ISD and SSD can hit most fighter craft with some regularity. I included the acceleration, becuase honestly in SW there is only Relativity that keeps a ship from reaching C. Suffice to say that fighters for SW can move at comparable combat speeds to what we have seen Star Trek use. Meaning that the MUCH larger ST captial ships will be easy pickings for gunners.

By the way the only times we have seen a smaller ship defeat a larger ship is SW is secial circumstances.

[I]Anakin's lucky shot[/I]: Anakin lucked out to fly into the unshiedled hangar doors. (they could have left the hangar unshieded, or could have been launching something) flew accidently deep inside the vessel and accidently fired two proton torpedos into the main reactor. The reactor probably was shielded but just not heavily enough to resist two proton torpedoes.

[I]Luke's Force guided Shot[/I]: Using just the basic targeting and the force, Luke managed to use an inaccurate weapon to hit a 2 meter hole while flying at 3,700G of accelleration. the one spot was the ships ONLY weak spot and the only way to tell was having a complete blueprint.

[I]Death of the Executor[/I]: Already under fire from dozens of Rebel ships, including Home One the 3.2 kilometer (if you scale by the movie) long captial ship of Admiral Ackbar and it's sister ship Independance. The Executor was being singled out as the largest threat with all avalaible fire power pouring inot that massive vessel. It's shields knocked down by several minutes of fire and much of the ship being blown to pieces. An X-wing gets off a lucky burst and takes out one of the sensor arrays reducing targeting ability and overloading the redundant bridge shields. Meanwhile a kamikaze A-wing followed by an X-wing made a run for the bridge. The X-wing was shot out of the sky by a laser balst coming form 90 degree to it's port. Meanwhile the unbelievably fast A-wing comes screaming in at redline and smashes through the transparisteel window. Everyon on main bridge is dead and the controls short out sending the Executor into an accelerating turn that plows directly into the Death Star. In truth if the Executor had not impacted anything, it would have survived.

[I]Wedge and Lando bring home the bacon[/I]: Wedge, the only pilot to survive making runs on both Death Stars and Lando, widely held as almost Han's equal. made their attack run through the not yet completed Death Star. Despite flying inside a superstructure with almost no room to maneuver the two aces manage to wind up in the main reactor. Wedge's torpedoes take out the power regulator while Lando uses heavy concussion missles to turn the reactor into a joke. All of this would not have been possible if the Death Star had been completed.


Now each case of a small vessel taking out a larger on is at best a million to one shot. Each also need a set up not likely to happen for ST. ST won't be facing adhoc battleships. ST won't have blueprints of a vessel. ST does not have the firepower needed to bring down a SSD's shields before the SSD destroys them or leaves. ST is not going to face ano uncompleted ship. Even if they did it would be a one time thing. The end result will still be the same SW will walk in crush the starfleet and conquer planets with frightening ease. If it's any consolation some ST technology will be widely embraced and improved upon.


Imagine an ISDIII with Warpdrive and Hyperdrive. Not to mention using replicaotrs to reload missile launchers.