Star Wars vs Star Trek

[QUOTE][B]The Galaxy class was upgraded, on a slow scale, after the discovery of the Borg. Enterprise D being one of the upgraded ships. After it's upgrade it's Warp Core (by far the largest power generator on the ship) had a 1.2E19 watt per second energy rate. Now assuming that is only 1/3 ship's power instead of ~75% they imply and assuming shields receive 100% of all power the shields could ONLY be as powerful as 3.6E19 gigawatts per second. How would that fair against 5.225E19 watt in 1/15th second? [/B]

Actually, if you followed the series, the Ent-D was NEVER upgraded to fight the borg until WELL after it's second encounter with the Borg. Even then, it was a simple increase in powerflow to shields and weapons. NO auto-modulation or anything. Also, considering we all know your numbers are bogus, it'd fair very well but for one thing- it doesn't fucking EXIST anymore.[/QUOTE]

Dude, did I say it was an immediate upgrade? No, I said following. Remeber there were power and engine upgrades made between first meet and second. True Q happens to be after the power upgrades to the vessel and Data clearly states 12 billion gigawatts per second in scientifi notation 1.2E19. We know for EU canon that a heavy Turbolaser is 12.5 gigatons or ~5.225E and we know from visual the bolt appear to 1/15th of a second.


[QUOTE][B]You can tell by the lengths of the ships in question. The Jem H'dar vessels were moving less than four times their own length every second. I rounded up to the nearest km/s[/B]
Mhm, we all know how good you are with math...[/QUOTE]

Well show me that 4 times the lenght of a Jem H'dar fighter rounds upt to more than 1km, if you can.

[QUOTE][B]You are stupid, on canon evidence shows that SW ships do have shields and that only through long term, intense, fire from gigaton level weaponry brings down said shields. Also the Defiant is as large as a Corellion Corvette. It could fit in ANY exhaust port even if there were one.[/B]
Then apparently your shields SUCK as the Falcon landed on the goddamn ship even though the order to raise shields was given and no order was issued to lower them! [/QUOTE]

Ever consider that perhaps the ISD was focuiasing all shields forward as SW ships can do. After all not man asteoid are gonna sneak up on your back if you are flying forwards. Oh see a good explanation that fits canon and situation.

So Star Wars ships focus all shields fowards?

Aight, cool. We'll just do a micro-warp around and blow your ass end off...

Though were they also focusing all sensors and ray shielding forwards too? Dunno why, not like an asteroid is going to shoot at you and it shouldn't be that difficult to locate a bunch of rocks in space...

As for the Galaxy upgrades, you do realize the Ent-D never recieved it's final refit for service, right? It was destroyed before it was designated for the next upgrades.

Here's a question Scott- prove to me that the EU canon for a HTL is 12.5 gigatons in 1/15th of a second- if I recall, they don't mention how long it takes to fire at that power output. What you are claiming is that the oldest vessels have the same power output as the newest vessels (either that or you just suck at differentiating between the different SD's)

Also, the Oddessy incident has been shown multiple times thru frame captures. The Fighter impacted the Oddessy on the main deflector, yes... but it ALSO exploded before full impact! And the explosion effect (it blows the ship apart from the middle of the aft end) dictates a warp core overload. The starboard nacelle of the fighter blows off well before it impacts the side of the oddessy and, as a result, slams into the oddessy's port nacelle's bussard collecor and then itself exploded. After a few seconds, the oddessy started to explode, originating in Engineering which is where the Warp Core is.

That seems pretty darn determinate in that it was the fighter's warp core
1) Exploding DIRECTLY onto the side of the oddessy
2) Overloading the navi-deflector
3) A warp-coil explosion on the port nacelle of the oddessy
4) The damage to the Oddessy's own warp coil and control systems

that ultimately resulted in a warp core breach and the destruction of hte oddessy.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1489461]
You can tell by the lengths of the ships in question. The Jem H'dar vessels were moving less than four times their own length every second. I rounded up to the nearest km/s[/QUOTE]

Do you have a measuring tape on the screen or something?

I also have yet to see a ship fly in a straight line directly across the screen or up and down the screen (x and y axes). For your estimates to be even close to accurate, you must be using these axes. The depth perception (z-axis) of curving movement on a TV/flat panel monitor cannot be an accurate measurement of a speed/distance relationship. You couldn't possibly know what distance the writers intended the ship to traverse (to any acceptable level of accuracy) unless some sort of comparitive measurement is in the dialog.


[QUOTE=TW Scott;1489461]
You are stupid, on canon evidence shows that SW ships do have shields and that only through long term, intense, fire from gigaton level weaponry brings down said shields. Also the Defiant is as large as a Corellion Corvette. It could fit in ANY exhaust port even if there were one.[/QUOTE]

Please TW...please. Tell me then how in hell Anakin-boy's tiny little flyer got thru the capital ship. Tell me how the Death Star was compromised by Luke's shot-up XWing. Absolute rubbish TW. They have got no shields. And you're nit picking, I only suggested exhaust port as a hyperbolic comparison. Wars capital ships are notoriously vulnerable to plucky young things in underpowered fighters. Whatever canon dialog you'd like to try, these canon [U]visuals[/U] are overriding.

Fighters, Sabers, Defiants, BoPs etc are small enough to accomplish the same feat, and there are enough to coordinate a plausible simultaneous attempt on multiple Wars capital ships.

Actually, SW ships can focus any of there on any direction if need be. But in most cases its an even spread around the ship. As for the Trade federation vessel, they have to lower the particle shield to let fighters out. Otherwise you have them flying into the shield. Makes a nasty mess. The DS has shields, but I don't think you would activate shields because of an attack by fighters. They would likely activate them if a fleet showed up, but a small flight of fighters supposedly poised no real harm to the station. It would be the same as a shuttle with phasers would pose no real thereat to Starbase. If it doesn't pose much of a threat, why activate shields?

When I say that Star War's conventional firepower shares no similarity with the ICS books, it's evident in everyway...

[B]Artoo mildly damage by Tie fighter lasers. (ANH)
compare that to Artoo damage by hand blasters (RotJ)[/B]

Obviously then if both caused damage with a certain range, logically Ties are not geared to asault captial ships with 200 GIGA TON shield resistance.

[B]Ties firing on the Millenium Falcon, striking the rocky surfaces of asteroids causing mere flashes like a fireworks display and doing zero damage to the asteroid surface. (ESB)[/B]

If the Falcon's shields are fending off 200 GIGATON BLAST, Obviously these weak (for show only) Tie Fighter lasers are doing no good against the ANY Captial ship including a modified Freighter.

That Either means that the Ties were deployed for no reason but dramatic effect or that shield power on Captal ships are not gear to repel 200 GIGA TON blast

[B]Further...Naboo Fighter destroys Destroyer Droids in a couple of shots yet make not a scratch on the wall of the Hanger Bay. (Ep. I)[/B]

Some say the walls were shielded
Others say the powerlevel of the Naboo lasers were reduced by Artoo.

If the walls were shielded then they were not shield against fighter firepower. In one scene we see scortch marks for blasters but not for the Fighters.

Truely an inconsistancy.

Also Note: A Naboo Fighter is hulled by a weak, decidedly sub kiloton Droid tank...who's fire power is clearly seen in the Droid/Gugan battle to come.

Obviously these fighters aren't fighter multi GIGA TON weapons on the captial ships...

The ICS Books stand for wishfull thinking on the part of a certain group of Lucas Film. No wonder Lucas himself states in DVD and through Lucas Film that the EU is a whole other canvas for which star wars to play out.

How embarrassing to have make such a statement on behalf of those who have taken reason and simply discarded it for the purpose of an extra SCI FI conflict. It really does reduce the ICS books to pretty pictures and a catalog of star wars designs devoid of any useful facts pretaining to true Star War's Firepower.

In the episode "The Omega Directive" in Voyager, Janeway asks for a specialized torpedo that uses a different kind of force to be made that is 54 Isotons.
Kim says "Whats are we planning to do? Blow up a small planet?"
Tuvok responds, "I dont know know."
And then Janeway asks to increase the specialized warhead to 80 isotons.
Tuvok didnt contradict Kim's "Blow up a planet" thing. And Vulcans dont lie unless they have a very good reason.
Tuvok knows as little as Kim, and hes science officer, validating the statement that a "simple" 50 isotons can blow up a planet.

If 54 isotons can destroy a small planet... ONE STAR FLEET VESSEL CAN BLOW UP A WHOLE PLANET.
TV Canon outranks any book that contradicts it.
Because weapons of that magnitude are available, ST shields are stronger than any shield in star wars. and one torpedo which is 64 isotons, can destroy the biggest star wars ship in one hit.

MWAHAHAHA

[QUOTE=halo07guy;1490195]Actually, SW ships can focus any of there on any direction if need be. But in most cases its an even spread around the ship. As for the Trade federation vessel, they have to lower the particle shield to let fighters out. Otherwise you have them flying into the shield. Makes a nasty mess. The DS has shields, but I don't think you would activate shields because of an attack by fighters. They would likely activate them if a fleet showed up, but a small flight of fighters supposedly poised no real harm to the station. It would be the same as a shuttle with phasers would pose no real thereat to Starbase. If it doesn't pose much of a threat, why activate shields?[/QUOTE]

Illogical. Threat of any kind requires a condition Red in Star Fleet and General Quarters in Star Wars...anything less would be gross negligance. Fighter susposedly posess Proton torpedo abilities that can bring down captial ships.

As a result the DS must not have any sort of defense shield against fighters or captial ships.

Hey scott.
Is this you?
[url]http://www.myspace.com/twscott[/url]

Only idiots stick music on the page like that.
Damn annoying.
And the background sucks too.

gahaha, if that is... damn...

hmmm....maybe I've should be calling him TW-HICKORY.
THIS EXPLAINS SOOOOOOOO MUCH....

O.o Well given the fact Scott's profile on here it says his age is 32 and the person on the myspace is 24. Also with Scott being a Star Wars or Sci-fi fan wouldn't you think he'd mention it on a myspace? In the end I don't think its Scott.

Eh. It was a joke anyway. Mighty coincidence that both are called twscott, eh? And anyway, many lie on internet forums about their age. He might keep his "immense" knowledge of Star Wars a secret...

heh, I'd hide it if I knew as much as he does [/sarcasm]

[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1489755]Do you have a measuring tape on the screen or something?

I also have yet to see a ship fly in a straight line directly across the screen or up and down the screen (x and y axes). For your estimates to be even close to accurate, you must be using these axes. The depth perception (z-axis) of curving movement on a TV/flat panel monitor cannot be an accurate measurement of a speed/distance relationship. You couldn't possibly know what distance the writers intended the ship to traverse (to any acceptable level of accuracy) unless some sort of comparitive measurement is in the dialog.[quote]

Writers doesn't mean shit in this argument. Writers could have intended for the Jem H'dar vessel to slingshot around a star, but it didn't happen. Even using a flat screen monmitor and accounting for the 3D reality those ships were not moving more than four times their lenght each second. Hell the on hitting the Odessy actually slow down before impact. The ones flight through the Kingon vessels do not appear to slow down despite the resistance of the Kingon hull.




[QUOTE]Please TW...please. Tell me then how in hell Anakin-boy's tiny little flyer got thru the capital ship. Tell me how the Death Star was compromised by Luke's shot-up XWing. Absolute rubbish TW. They have got no shields. And you're nit picking, I only suggested exhaust port as a hyperbolic comparison. Wars capital ships are notoriously vulnerable to plucky young things in underpowered fighters. Whatever canon dialog you'd like to try, these canon [U]visuals[/U] are overriding. [/QUOTE]

Okay, the Federation battle Cruiser were actually retrofitted Super frieghters. This ships civillian level shielding was replaced with adhoc military shields. This hury rigged attempt to creat capatical ships on the cheep were bound to have some flaws. Gaps in the shields as it were. This weakness would not be there on dedicated capital ship.

As fiotr the Death Star it was explained that the Shields on that massive station were planetary shields. Since a stunt fighter was consider no real threat they cut corners to get to testing a deployment. Since it was unthinkable that some group would make any sort of assualt other than full frontal with Capital ships. The tiny gaps in the shield were considered inconsequential. Palpatine learned for his mistake and the Death Star II had a much more power defense screen.


[quote]Fighters, Sabers, Defiants, BoPs etc are small enough to accomplish the same feat, and there are enough to coordinate a plausible simultaneous attempt on multiple Wars capital ships.[/QUOTE]

Okay, obviously you are under the mistaken impression that a Defiant class star ships is uuneder 20m. The Defiant is near the size of the Tantive IV, which is obvioulvy WAY to big to be. BOP are still MUCH to big to attempt such manueversl. ST FIghters and Shuttles are small enough, but are hopelessly outclasssed by SW fighter craft.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1490288]In the episode "The Omega Directive" in Voyager, Janeway asks for a specialized torpedo that uses a different kind of force to be made that is 54 Isotons.
Kim says "Whats are we planning to do? Blow up a small planet?"
Tuvok responds, "I dont know know."
And then Janeway asks to increase the specialized warhead to 80 isotons.
Tuvok didnt contradict Kim's "Blow up a planet" thing. And Vulcans dont lie unless they have a very good reason.
Tuvok knows as little as Kim, and hes science officer, validating the statement that a "simple" 50 isotons can blow up a planet.

If 54 isotons can destroy a small planet... ONE STAR FLEET VESSEL CAN BLOW UP A WHOLE PLANET.
TV Canon outranks any book that contradicts it.
Because weapons of that magnitude are available, ST shields are stronger than any shield in star wars. and one torpedo which is 64 isotons, can destroy the biggest star wars ship in one hit.

MWAHAHAHA[/QUOTE]

Small Problem, Small Planet the way ST uses the description could be smaller than 70 meters in diameter. After all they were using the rules prior to the change classified classified Pluto as a planetoid.

However like the rules of the universe go Dialog is worthless without Visual to back it up. Harry Kim has been horribly wrong before, "Rise", so unless that torpedo did blow up a planet the dialog means shit.

Also Vulcans can and do lie, they have absolutley no qualms with it at all as a race. Certain individuals like Spock happen to be very moral in addition to logical.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1490470]Small Problem, Small Planet the way ST uses the description could be smaller than 70 meters in diameter. After all they were using the rules prior to the change classified classified Pluto as a planetoid. [/QUOTE]
So what? Pluto isnt a planet in 2366. Kim could have said that "it can destroy a moon"... But he said Planet.
And, even pluto per torpedo is a LOT. DS9 has about 3000 torpedos... Enough to blow up Earth MANY times over.
Small Planet != Planetoid/moon

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1490470]
However like the rules of the universe go Dialog is worthless without Visual to back it up. Harry Kim has been horribly wrong before, "Rise", so unless that torpedo did blow up a planet the dialog means shit.[/QUOTE]
But Tuvok didnt contradict him. Tuvok always contradicts those who say something that is wrong. There are MANY jokes about him in the show about how he is a stickler for the truth. He is respected for being truthful and even aliens respect him for his truthfulness.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1490470]
Also Vulcans can and do lie, they have absolutley no qualms with it at all as a race. Certain individuals like Spock happen to be very moral in addition to logical.[/QUOTE]
Why would Tuvok lie? And Spock was half human. He isnt a Vulcan like Tuvok.
Tuvok had NO reason to lie whatsoever.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1490452][QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1489755]Do you have a measuring tape on the screen or something?

I also have yet to see a ship fly in a straight line directly across the screen or up and down the screen (x and y axes). For your estimates to be even close to accurate, you must be using these axes. The depth perception (z-axis) of curving movement on a TV/flat panel monitor cannot be an accurate measurement of a speed/distance relationship. You couldn't possibly know what distance the writers intended the ship to traverse (to any acceptable level of accuracy) unless some sort of comparitive measurement is in the dialog.[quote]

Writers doesn't mean shit in this argument. Writers could have intended for the Jem H'dar vessel to slingshot around a star, but it didn't happen. Even using a flat screen monmitor and accounting for the 3D reality those ships were not moving more than four times their lenght each second. Hell the on hitting the Odessy actually slow down before impact. The ones flight through the Kingon vessels do not appear to slow down despite the resistance of the Kingon hull.

[COLOR="Red"][B]HERE WE HAVE IT FOLKS! HE JUST SAID IT HIMSELF! WHAT THE WRITERS, THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE FUCKING SHOW, SAID, DOESN'T MEAN SHIT! DOES ANYONE ELSE NOTICE SOMETTHING WRONG WITH THAT?[/B][/COLOR]





Okay, the Federation battle Cruiser were actually retrofitted Super frieghters. This ships civillian level shielding was replaced with adhoc military shields. This hury rigged attempt to creat capatical ships on the cheep were bound to have some flaws. Gaps in the shields as it were. This weakness would not be there on dedicated capital ship.

[COLOR="Red"]Mhm, provide lines in the movies or books (witth either timestamps or page numbers) to back your theory...[/COLOR]

As fiotr the Death Star it was explained that the Shields on that massive station were planetary shields. Since a stunt fighter was consider no real threat they cut corners to get to testing a deployment. Since it was unthinkable that some group would make any sort of assualt other than full frontal with Capital ships. The tiny gaps in the shield were considered inconsequential. Palpatine learned for his mistake and the Death Star II had a much more power defense screen.

[COLOR="Red"]So the people that built it were just fucking retarded? Okay, got it...[/COLOR]


Okay, obviously you are under the mistaken impression that a Defiant class star ships is uuneder 20m. The Defiant is near the size of the Tantive IV, which is obvioulvy WAY to big to be. BOP are still MUCH to big to attempt such manueversl. ST FIghters and Shuttles are small enough, but are hopelessly outclasssed by SW fighter craft.

[COLOR="Red"]The Defiant is a tad big... BoP's MAYBE could fit thru the shields... the Venture class starship (which had photon torps, a pulse phaser, and micro-quantum torpedos), a Danube class shuttle, or a federation Peregrine bomber would easily do it... and the Peregrine bomber has far more power than a silly little A or X wing does.[/COLOR][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Scott, you failed. You just showed you're own stupidity... what the WRITERS say means nothing according to you. That is your own measure of your own stupidity. Good job...

[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1486676]Trek shields are impressive compared to the lackluster Wars' and the non-existent B5 shields ;)[/QUOTE]

Star War's sheilds ARE non-existant, just watch Ep. III [Rep. Cruiser pulls up to the side of CIS cruiser (greivous's) and start shooting at each other,] no shield impacts, explosions, clones flyin' all over, and don't give me any crap about the "hull-hugging shit you've been throwing around, we can clearly see those batteries penatrating the hull when their so-called "shields" are active.

Dude they do have sheilds are you really that dumb how come I can see sheilds when i watch SW and you a rabbid trekkie cant!?

Um, are you forgetting that were talking about a battle where there are over 30,00 ships invloved, each one in close-quarters combat with about 3 or four other capital ships. I would think that the shields would be down. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the ferocity and density of the battle would have downed the shields of most ships. And again that is nitpicking. They mention shields all the time in the movies books, everywhere. And it has been stated that the shield of an ISD would be so close to the armor that there would be only about a few centimeters between them.