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[QUOTE=TW Scott;1419163]Okay lets look at it objectively. We know from The Survivors(TNG) that a 400 gigawatt blast complete decimated the shields of a Galaxy class Starship. To be generous we will give them a 500% increase in ability.
Now, for simplicity sake we will just say that it takes a blast on 2,000 gigawatt seconds to produce a similar scrambling of the shields on a GCS and Defiant. Smaller vessels are 1,200 to 1,600 and Sovereign is 4,000. Now this is very generous as it is five times the canon ST amount.
We will call this the Single Beam Break Point or (SBBP). The amount of energy need supplied to 100 square centimeters to smash through the shields. Other hits of lesser variety can weaken the shields and even more powerful hits that is spread over a much larger area and still be fine.
This follows what we know of ST shields, they can take a pounding that is spread over and area of shields. They can take impacts, pr0vided it strikes a large area of shield, however a concentrated high energy assault completely blows them off line.
Okay, is everybody with me so far?
Sovereign, Prometheus, special concept ships 4,000,000,000,000 watt second SBBP
Galaxy, Amabassador, Defiant 2,000,000,000,000 watt second SBBP
Smaller Ships 1,600,000,000,000 watt second SBBP
This is the number of Watts it would take per 100cm^2 to fully blow the shields offline.
Okay in ESB an ISD was using Weapons to clean out an asteroid field. Now if we only go by movie, appearance and what we know of asteroids, these were mostly Nickel Iron granite asteroids. We do know they had to be destroying 100+ meter radius rocks. But for arguments sake we will limit it to 4 times the length of the Falcon or a total of a 100 meter diameter or 50 meter radius
50^3*4/3*pi = 523,598.77 cubic meters
Density of iron is 7,874kg per cubic meter
Density of Nickel is 8,908 kg per cubic meter
Density of granit is 2,750 kg per cubic meter
Assuming a composition of 60% granite, 20% Iron, 20% nickel we would have
863,937,979.74 kg of granite
824,563,351.81 kg of iron
932,843,578.61 kg of nickel
2,621,344,910.16 kilograms total
Granite has a specific heat of 294 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,215 Celsius
Iron has a specific heat of 444 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,811 Celsius
Nickel has a specific heat of 420 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,728 Celsius
From a starting tem of -200 Celsius we get the following joule requirements to heat to vapor.
359,406,838,950,470.00 for granite
736,239,423,819,485.00 for iron
755,379,416,211,937.00 for nickel
1,851,025,678,981,890.00 joules total
Now this puts a 1/15th second blast of the turbnolaser seen in ESB at a minimum of 1,851,025,678,981,890.00 watt seconds
Do we see the disparity yet?[/QUOTE]Excuse me, but granite is an igneous rock, it is highly unlikely to find a volcanic rock in an asteroid field. And what is your source on the specific heat?
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[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1437728]*sighs* The Scimitar had a PERFECT cloak- no emissions of any type and barely any optical distortion. Torpedo's need something to lock onto, even if it's only guidance from the launching ship. Without that, they, obviously, won't hit whatever your shooting at.
The Enterprise-E was fighting blind until after the Scimitars Thalaron Cloak was disabled.
I HIGHLY doubt that Wars ships Have Thalaron cloaks...[/QUOTE]
True SW does not use anything as primative as a Thalaron Cloak. A SW cloak is 100% undetectable unless you have a speciallize gravity sensor. We're talking a senosr so fine tuned it would be able to tell the difference between one area of microgravity from another area.
The problem is ounless you have the old Stygium cloaks (a rarity but possible) the ship is nearly as blind. SW cloaks are also not voided by weapons fire, meaning if some one had a acurate map of an area of space and were attacking a stationary target you could use the cloak to fire TL bolts from apparantly empty space.
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[QUOTE=USS Enterprise-B;1438772]Excuse me, but granite is an igneous rock, it is highly unlikely to find a volcanic rock in an asteroid field. And what is your source on the specific heat?[/QUOTE]
Excuse me, but you are far more likley to find a volcanic rock in an asteroid belt than metamorphic or sedimentary. Also the asteroid field in question was a catastrophic planetary collision, meaning that some of those asteroids were undoubtedly much harder materials like Diamond, tungsten, uranium.
As for my info on specific heat you can look it up online.
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[QUOTE=Saquist;1438060]...the popularity contest. Star Trek wins the fight.[/QUOTE]
Then the trekkies woke up from their collective coma in the Chewbacca memorial Hospital
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Actually Scotto, as soon as the first "bolt" is seen phaser and disruptor fire will rain down upon your vulnerable ships. Cloaking is pointless against the tactical abilities of seasoned pilots (watch for weapons fire, fire a spread of your own weapons and look for shield impacts, etc)
And best of all- we could simply trace the ion trails of your engines :)
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I found out some fucked up shit about the vong their sheilds are black holes >_>
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They use Dovil Basins, yes.
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[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1438888]Actually Scotto, as soon as the first "bolt" is seen phaser and disruptor fire will rain down upon your vulnerable ships. Cloaking is pointless against the tactical abilities of seasoned pilots (watch for weapons fire, fire a spread of your own weapons and look for shield impacts, etc)
And best of all- we could simply trace the ion trails of your engines :)[/QUOTE]
No Ion trail to be detected with even a half way decent cloak. Using just repulser maneuvering a ISD could use bob and weave in their inertial.
Also the cloak field extends more that 100 meters from the shields. Phaser and photons would appear to disappear. The bolts would not be detectable until they left the cloak meaning the ship would not be exactly where you are shooting.
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[QUOTE=Fettman;1438915]I found out some fucked up shit about the vong their sheilds are black holes >_>[/QUOTE]
Yep and Star Wars weaponry is quite capable of overloading the Dovin Basal singularities. Something no fed vessel could claim.
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They don't overload the black hole- they outsmart it... stutter fire tricks the computers automated systems into trying to open up more basins than the ships energy grid can support. To do this with a Federation Starship, simply use Pulse Phasers and proximity detonation torpedos. use low power bursts (dozens or hundreds of them) with a few high power shots thrown in (as they did when probing for the Scimitar) Even better still- a single, full power sustained burst being drawn down the length of the ship.
And prove the cloaking field does just that- it would seem silly to do so because now enemy fighters can hide in your cloaking field.
And how, exactly, would the cloaking field prevent the ion trails?
And "using just replusor manuvering" an ISD wouldn't go much of anywhere, as is shown by their apparent inability to manuver in fleet engagements.
Even so, if things are as you CLAIM, and it's just that, your claim, the easiest thing to do would be use the disappearance of weapons fire and triangulate- when a phaser blast disappears, fire a few off in rapid succession before, after, above, and below the target. Triangulate their direction and approximate speed and then fire off a salvo of proximity-detonation torpedos on highest yield. The resulting concussion will most likely disrupt, if not destroy, the cloak (assuming their "cloak" works via a pod like their all too vulnerable sensor pod) and even if it didn't, it would undoubtably shimmer the cloak- there is no way to explain that kind of energy release simply disappaering.
And if, for SOME reason it did, they'd fire off a few TriCobalt devices and obliterate them with a near miss.
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[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1438969]They don't overload the black hole- they outsmart it... stutter fire tricks the computers automated systems into trying to open up more basins than the ships energy grid can support. To do this with a Federation Starship, simply use Pulse Phasers and proximity detonation torpedos. use low power bursts (dozens or hundreds of them) with a few high power shots thrown in (as they did when probing for the Scimitar) Even better still- a single, full power sustained burst being drawn down the length of the ship. [/quote]
Actually if you read again they can overload the voids as they call them quite quickly then fire pulese inot the voids that will refract (still hitting the shiP)
[QUOTE]And prove the cloaking field does just that- it would seem silly to do so because now enemy fighters can hide in your cloaking field.[/QUOTE]
The hand Of Thrawn Duology Han accidently flies into the cloaking field of an ISD that was anchored to an asteroid passing Bothuwai. Han had room to make several manuevers and actually had to try to escape the cloak field. BTW it would not be silly if your own fighters could hid in your cloak.
[QUOTE]And how, exactly, would the cloaking field prevent the ion trails?
And "using just replusor manuvering" an ISD wouldn't go much of anywhere, as is shown by their apparent inability to manuver in fleet engagements. [/QUOTE]
Inertia allows a ship to stay moving repulser manevering would allow you to shift course.
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[quote]
Even so, if things are as you CLAIM, and it's just that, your claim, the easiest thing to do would be use the disappearance of weapons fire and triangulate- when a phaser blast disappears, fire a few off in rapid succession before, after, above, and below the target. Triangulate their direction and approximate speed and then fire off a salvo of proximity-detonation torpedos on highest yield. The resulting concussion will most likely disrupt, if not destroy, the cloak (assuming their "cloak" works via a pod like their all too vulnerable sensor pod) and even if it didn't, it would undoubtably shimmer the cloak- there is no way to explain that kind of energy release simply disappaering.
And if, for SOME reason it did, they'd fire off a few TriCobalt devices and obliterate them with a near miss.[/QUOTE]
Dude you just don't get it. If a 12.5 gigatons blast doesn't even make a cloak hiccup, why would a measly 25 tons. Or your pathetic TriColbalt devices that can barely effect trek shields.
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Dude, you don't get it. You're weapon strength theory is bigotry. You pull numbers from random while ignoring onscreen visual and audio PROOF that states the contrary.
Get off your high horse and admit when you are wrong! You might actually learn something that way!
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[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;1437892]1. Torpedoes are [I]more[/I] effective against cloaked ships since a cloak is a shield and requires the normal defensive shields to be down. The only problem is to find the cloaked vessel.
2. "A ship that small doesn't have a cloak device" does not in any way mean that [I]all[/I] capital ships have a cloaking device. It just means that a ship that small doesn't have one! More than likely having to do with space and power constrictions.
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Offcourse not all ships would have cloaks but the tech is there so you can install the devices on every ship.[/COLOR]
3. A torpedo can be launched at warp; ie. warp flight from the instant of firing.
[COLOR="deepskyblue"]should it not leave the lauchtube first? I mean if it can be launched at warp wouldn't it be effective to always launch them in warp? Then your enemy wouldn't even know your fired because they have time to react.
I saw a few battles in ST. If they have a fight at pulse speed you always see the torpedo's. But lets say they are in a fight with a few BOP's. If you fire at warpspeed, your torpedo's would hit the instand you "push the button"?[/COLOR]
1. All phasers can be fired at almost the same time (see ST: Nemesis after Picard orders "Fire all ventral phasers, lateral targeting" or whatever it was he said :) It was one of the fastest phaser attacks executed by a Trek ship I can recall at the moment.
[COLOR="deepskyblue"]thx for the info i think i'll try optaning this peticular episode. How much phasers were there?[/COLOR]
2. The back is not a blind spot for the saucer phasers, there is at least one torpedo launcher between the warp nacelles of a Galaxy Class. The saucer phasers can be fired downward, but up to a certain angle of course, which is why ships move in battle. Or they can just use torpedoes which will go wherever the target is.[/QUOTE]
Yes, i read it. the asscanon. Seems very interesting.
But as i get it, it fires torpedo's. Isn't that a bit useless, as torpedo's can be targeted? I Don't mean this in ST vs SW, but in general. Wouldn't it be better to mount a few phasers between these nacelles?
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And the TriCobalt devices can be safely assumed to be just as effective against shields as unshielded targets- after all, have they ever been shown not to be?
No!
So STOP MAKING UP STORIES SCOTT.
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[QUOTE=Lord Vasago;1438980]Yes, i read it. the asscanon. Seems very interesting.
But as i get it, it fires torpedo's. Isn't that a bit useless, as torpedo's can be targeted? I Don't mean this in ST vs SW, but in general. Would it be better to mount a few phasers between these nacelles?[/QUOTE]
Not an episode- it's a movie. Star Trek: Nemesis
Torpedos have shown the ability to do many various things at various speeds.
And there are phasers mounted to suppliment the torpedo tubes :) Ass Cannons and Ass Blasters if you will :)
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[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1438982]Not an episode- it's a movie. Star Trek: Nemesis
[/QUOTE]
Thx, i'll rent the movie, maybe i saw it before, i don't know, we'll see:D
That must be some ass:D
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I have a few tapes "the greatest battles in startrek" butt i know there must be some awesome dogfights or massive battles, maybe you can point some out:D
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The best occur in DS9 with the Dominion Wars and the Klingon/DS9 standoff
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[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1439002]The best occur in DS9 with the Dominion Wars and the Klingon/DS9 standoff[/QUOTE]
that's one of the tapes i got. It's impressive that DS9 has such a defence.
I'm not sure howmany but the klingon's were numerous and yet the would not make a chance.
I don't know if ds9 would stand his "ground" if it where against the Empire though.:bugeye: I know ST is powerfull but you just can't compare a BOP with a ISD.
it's comparing a goldfish with a whale:D
