By the way- in Revenge of the Sith, it is stated that DURASTEEL melted when in contact with LAVA...
that's not terribly hot compared to the plasma of a starship... so no plasma based propulsion, power, or weapons for you scott.
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By the way- in Revenge of the Sith, it is stated that DURASTEEL melted when in contact with LAVA...
that's not terribly hot compared to the plasma of a starship... so no plasma based propulsion, power, or weapons for you scott.
Or, of course gas turbines - jet engines, y'know?
Used today in [i]many[/i] locations as power sources.
[QUOTE=Oli;1419733]Or, of course gas turbines - jet engines, y'know?
Used today in [i]many[/i] locations as power sources.[/QUOTE]
Gas Turbines = Steam Turbines... same idea. Pressure from expanding gases turn the blades.
What is at first thought to be a senseless death becomes the key to destroying the Doomsday Machine. The explosion of the shuttlecraft produces a minute power drop in the device. Kirk has the damage control teams beamed back to the ship, and orders Scotty to rig the impulse engines, now capable of almost one-third impulse, to explode at Kirk's command. His plan is to use the impulse engines, each capable of generating a 97.835 megaton explosion when overloaded, to try to destroy the planet-killer from the inside. Scotty sets the 30-second delay and, per Kirk's order, beams to the Enterprise. Kirk approaches the planet-killer at over 50 kilometers per second relative speed, then within 15 seconds slows his approach to approximately 10km/sec. Kirk thereby pilots the Constellation straight into the maw of the weapon-ship, the half-operable transporter beaming him off at the last moment before the detonation.
Apparently even the old TOS Era IMPULSE engines were damned powerful :D
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419764]Gas Turbines = Steam Turbines... same idea. Pressure from expanding gases turn the blades.[/QUOTE]
But more compact. And not a bad idea.
Mate, that's not what I'm saying.
Scott says that they are powered by some super-fusion/fission thing that can output umpteen billion gigajoules.
Here we have PROOF that they are fired via a simple electric generator tied to a turbine motor.
As Duranium has been proven unable to withstand even the heat of Lava, much less energetic plasma, the only concievable "fuel" would be expanding gasses of some sort. As there is a VERY REAL physical limit to what can be done (tensile strength, blade sheer, etc) as well as a limit to power generation based on size, amount of fuel, etc, I think we can safely say a TurboLaser is NOT the end-all-be-all that Scott thinks they are.
At 340-odd meters long and 700,000 metric tonnes, the ship could ruin a person's entire day even with a comparatively-gentle nudge. For instance, a small car might weigh in at 750 kilograms, and if it's travelling at 100 kilometers per hour (about 60 miles per hour) it will have a kinetic energy of almost 300 kilojoules. Voyager achieves this same KE at less than 0.03 meters per second. At 100 km/h, the 700,000 tonnes of Voyager . . . quite a bit heavier than the car . . . result in a KE of just over 27 trillion joules. That's 27 terajoules, or almost 6.5 kilotons.
Now, consider Voyager at not-even-relativistic speeds. For instance, Voyager at just 10 kilometers per second . . . Mach 30 at sea level, or 0.00003334c . . . is going to have a kinetic energy of 35,000 terajoules, or almost 8.4 megatons. At one-tenth lightspeed, we're looking at 75,000 gigatons. At one-half lightspeed, we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000,000 gigatons . . . about 8E24 joules, or eight quadrillion terajoules.
At faster speeds, relativistic effects come into play in earnest. At .9c, for instance, we're looking at over 8E25J . . . almost 20,000,000 gigatons, instead of the 'mere' 6,000,000 gigatons non-relativistic calculations might indicate.
Obviously, then, a ship moving sufficiently fast can rearrange a hellacious amount of real estate. At .5c, a starship of Voyager size augering straight into an Earth-like planet could blast a hole over 100 miles wide, laying waste to civilization within a 2500 mile radius.
Hmm.. Scott... you know... given this kind of energy output, I think the Feds would just crash a few computer-driven Intrepids into your fleet :)
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419809]Mate, that's not what I'm saying.
Scott says that they are powered by some super-fusion/fission thing that can output umpteen billion gigajoules.
Here we have PROOF that they are fired via a simple electric generator tied to a turbine motor.
As Duranium has been proven unable to withstand even the heat of Lava, much less energetic plasma, the only concievable "fuel" would be expanding gasses of some sort. As there is a VERY REAL physical limit to what can be done (tensile strength, blade sheer, etc) as well as a limit to power generation based on size, amount of fuel, etc, I think we can safely say a TurboLaser is NOT the end-all-be-all that Scott thinks they are.[/QUOTE]
And expanding gases produce (currently) in the megawatts in gas turbines for everyday commercial applications. A specialised military weapons application using sci-fi materials could easily increase that output by orders of magnitude, and maybe even doesn't need to if it's charging capacitors.
It couldn't be on an order of magnitude- finite fuel, finite space, finite room for expansion.
Turbines work via distrobution of force over area- the larger area, the less force due to expansion. However, the more area the larger turbine you can use. So it becomes a balancing act. However, there is ALSO the limit of tensile strength of the blades. As Duranium's tensile strength is not known (but can be approximated) there is a finite limit to the size and turning speed of the turbine.
And again, if they charge a capacitor- simply discharge a powerful EMP to short out the whole shebang :)
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419868]It couldn't be on an order of magnitude- finite fuel, finite space, finite room for expansion.[/QUOTE]
Considering we've gone order[B]s[/B] of magnitude in output since the introduction of the first gas turbine with a less than order of magnitude (overall) increase in size I'd say you're reaching here...
I'm not saying there can't be some increase, but to generate the kind of power Scott's been babbling on about with the construction materials available? No way.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419354]Why are they visible in the atmosphere...
dust...
is there dust in space...
yes. Hence navigational deflectors...
Take your strawman away before i burn it[/QUOTE]
Oh god, so you ignored the other point I had.
Do green wave lasers resemble the weapons used in Star Wars? No.
It's your straw man that i refuted completely.
BTW it is not just dust that makes a Green Wave laser visible in atmosphere.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419359]Treknobabble is VERY rare in TOS... TECHnobabble is common.[/quote]
If even Gene referred to it as Trekniobabble it is treknobabble and it was very prevalent, not as Prevalent as TNG, VOY or DS9, but still there.
[QUOTE]In TNG it is prevelent but the "treknobabble" is still minimal. Plot holes only.
Voy and DS9 it was most used[/QUOTE]
TNG, VOY and DS9 made treknobabble the answer to almost every situation. I mean at least in TOS it was limited mostly to the problem, but in the other series it was the solution to virtually EVERYTHING.
[quote]Enterprise just sucks so meh[/QUOTE]
Actually first season was a great show, if they hadn't been messing up with the continuity of Star Trek. But agree after the first season meh.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419365]Proof of lack of plasma conduits- they use copper fucking wires. You can SEE the damned things on the DS2 and in scenes where holes are blown in the ship! Otherwise the plasma would come POURING out of the conduits![/quote]
But proof that the weapons cannot be Plasma based is.....?
[QUOTE]Your "analysis" on page 225 was bullshit. NONE of those numbers were pulled from the show- they were ass-based equations made up by YOU.[/QUOTE]
Really? Are you really going to take this route? 400 gigawatts is taken directly from "The Survivors" TNG Third Season. It has NEVER been succesfully contested at all. So There is your first lie.
Second lie, the energy needed to heat a mass is a simple equation. Mass*Specific Heat*Temperature change=Energry needed. Of course there is also more energy needed to effect stat changes (solid-liquid-gas-plasma) as well as energy loss due to photon emission and condustion/convection, but even such a simple equation gives us a lower end for the weaponry.
[QUOTE]We have NO idea of the raw power output of the main core on ANY star wars ship and thus NO idea of what they can do. For all we know, their planets are a base of limestone, which means SuperSoakers would do the job![/QUOTE]
Are you really that ignorant? Damn, I should take up a collection and send you to shool. FIrst of all we know from what we see and what can be calculated by science the absolute bare minimum that the ships are capable of. As for your limestone reference, limestone is a sedimentary rock formed in the bottoms of seas over millions of years from the exoskeletons of mollusks. SO HOW CAN A PLANET BE BASED OFF THA?
[QUOTE]Prove to me, with QUOTE AND NUMBERS FROM THE MOVIES OR NOVELS, that the ships have that kind of power output. USE CITATIONS. Why you haven't done so already i can only assume is due to being UNABLE to.[/QUOTE]
Why can't you believe what you see from the movies? We seen in ESB Star Destroyers destroying massive asteroids. Hell the Executor just ploughed through them with her shields with out even a hiccup. The Death Star blew up a shielded planet with terrifying ease. I am using the movies. BTW if I deign to use the books the ICS is allowed as it was given equal footing with the novels.
[QUOTE]I have CITED PASSAGES FROM THE SERIES and you go and say they are wrong. You apparently think yourself a better judge of "cannon" than the people who WROTE THE FUCKING SHOW![/QUOTE]
Okay, here is your probelm you wrote snippets of passages from the show, you did not include the entire context, at all. Like your lasers line, you never explained they were facing a tiny ship from an emerging civilization and that the lasers were kilo or mega watt. You completely left that out as it hurt your case.
[quote]Get OFF your high horse![/QUOTE]
I am not on a high horse, I have the high ground, fortification and the big guns. You are sitting in a field 25 miles away and on your donkey with a stick.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419368]And you're "report" on fed shield strength is based on an OLD ship with OLD technology fighting an IMAGINARY being! If you noticed, it ALSO destroyed the old couples home, yet it didn't! Mind manipulation anyone?[/QUOTE]
Oh god, this argument again. First of all a Galaxy class is still considered an extremely powerful ship even after the introduction of the Sovereign. Only you disputes this. Second that technology is only a few years old by the end of Voyager. Are you still basically driving an ICE vehicle like people have for almost a hundred years now? Is the military still using the same basic M-16 from 40 years ago? how old is the M1? Yes there have been incremental upgrades, but nothing revolutionary, nothing 500% as I had very generously given the federation.
Also the ship did destroy the old couples home as assuredly as it did real damage to the Enterprise and injured real people. Uxbridge simply recreated the homestead from memory. he was a being who could manipulate matter and energy at will. If he was capable of mind manipulation the planet would never have been attacked in the first place.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419531]Vasgo, let me break it down for you, aight mate?[/quote]
The day you can break anything down other than cheap furniture is a momentus day.
[QUOTE]Immune to EMP (Shield Harmonics shown in TOS when the nuke detonated)[/QUOTE]
Resistant to EMP at best, we have no idea the power of the Nuke in question.
[QUOTE]Immune to laser fire (Shield Harmonics again as said in TNG)[/QUOTE]
No, immune to the lasers of said race and ship.
[QUOTE]PinPoint accuracy if so desired with Phasers (shown when used to drill open pockets of gas as done in TNG) (timing shots and the like)[/QUOTE]
Yes, if they have time (eighteen to thirty seconds) to get a full lock, even then they have missed targets moving in a straight line half the time.
[QUOTE]Very Manuverable (emergency turns via warp engines, full reverse to full warp ahead in under 1.3 seconds as shown in TNG)[/QUOTE]
Warp powered turns can stress and even severely damage the ship. They can jump to warp quickly provided they take the time to plot the course.
[QUOTE]Very fast (900 million times the speed of light as stated in voyager)[/QUOTE]
Stated by a individual known for exageration.
[QUOTE]Transporters (I win button - beam the crews into space)[/QUOTE]
Provided that the ST commanders think of this (none ever have), the shields are down, both ships are reasonably still, there is no radiation present, no ion storms, no super dense metals, no EW/ECM/ECCM, no strange material, no sensor masks, and so on.
[QUOTE]ALL ships are combat capable thanks to the photon and quantum and micro photon/quantum torpedos.[/QUOTE]
Hell, every SW ship is combat capable if you are using this logic.
[QUOTE]Shuttlecraft (stupid little shuttles) are well shielded and protected[/QUOTE]
Yet, can be taken out by nearly any natural phenomena from small asteroids. to lightning strikes to ion storms,.... Not to mention a Shuttle has NEVER beaten anything larger than itself.
[QUOTE]Energy Based weaponry is primary
Ballistic weaponry primary
Projectile weaponry secondary
Melee weaponry tertiary (yes, there ARE Federation melee weapons)
[/quote]
And this differs form SW how exactly?
[QUOTE]Power output is enormous, greater than fusion or fission could ever achieve[/QUOTE]
Actually, 12 billion gigawatts per second is impressive, and you are right nuclear fusion may not be able to match this, but fusion means joining. a M/AM engine is a Fusion engine by defination
[quote]Multiple redundant systems[/QUOTE]
And you're saying noting in Star Wars does? Yeah, I think you missed your medication.
[QUOTE]Star Wars:
Big big lasers who's output could excede the power absorption of trek's shields (DS and DS2) (that need time to charge by the way and ONLY fire in ONE direction)[/QUOTE]
The Death Star and Death Star 2 fire weapons that exceed any shielding we have seen in SW or ST. The destruction of Alderaan confirms this. And yes the weapon fires in one direction, but it is a strategic weapon, much like a long range nuclear missile is today.
[QUOTE]HyperSpace must be pre-planned or risk serious consequences[/QUOTE]
This preplanning takes mere seconds, much like the course plotting for Warp.
[QUOTE]Kinetic based weaponry can be shot down by phaser fire (blasters are kinetic according to scott)[/QUOTE]
Huh, proof that you haven't got a clue to what you are talking about,. I said they have a KINETIC ASPECT. Only natural when a coherent mass of particles hits you at C. They are foremost an energyu weapon but there is a kinetic effect as well. So quit being intentionally stupid.
[QUOTE]To put the nail in the coffin:[/QUOTE]
Your own?
[QUOTE]The Force is not a problem. Why? It's a disease- Midochlorians, right? Fine, use the Transporters and remove them! While you have the jedi/sith/whatever in the transporter buffer, simply anihilate the midochlorians. No more force :D[/QUOTE]
Provided you recognize what you are looking for, or that they aren;t just another term for mitochondria :D
[QUOTE]The DeathStar or Exequour is not really a problem- something that great a threat would prompt imediate reaction and whole hearted one. Most of the time Star Trek tries to hold back for whatever reason. Against a threat like that, they would use:
A) Covert operations
B) SubSpace Weaponry
C) Trilithium Warheads
D) IsoKinetic Detonators
E) all of the above[/QUOTE]
First of all by your reasoning they should have done this to V'ger, the Borg, the Dominion and so on, but they didn't. However to refute you I will handle these.
A) How? You can't guarantee insertion to the target by conventional means. You can't start a espionage operation as you have no cultureal intermingling. You have no assets inside the SW at all. It's the same reason the SW side would not be able to use a espionage network against the federation or klingons
B) SubSpace weaonry is used by ONE race and they gave up their weaponry and space craft to live on the planet again. Even if it were somehow used, it is atracted to WARP CORES, something SW does not have.
C) Trillithiyum and Tricobalt devices are simply explosives and if they were so powerful why weren't they used against other threats?
D) I assume you mean Multikinetic mines, which everyone with a working forebrain recognized was not an explosive, but rather a nanite spreading device.
[QUOTE]to remove said threat before it got within range (and according to the movies, firing range isn't that far on the DeathStar for it's main cannon)[/QUOTE]
Actually they were at least six planetary widths from Alderaan when the DS destroyed Alderaan. Besides how do you use any of these devices when you have a five second window.
[QUOTE]To refute the statement about why orbital bombardment couldn't work- does that mean planetary shields in Wars do NOT protect against physical objects? AWSOME! We'll simply crash other celestial bodies into your planets! Better yet, torpedo bombardment! They have a physical casing, so they'll pass thru the energy barrier. [/QUOTE]
Oh god. Are you dumb. Planetary bombardment would have included proton torpedoes, concussion missles and so on. They said "...strong enough to deflect any bombardment." Meaning for that area you could drop asteroids all day and not strain the shield.
[QUOTE]You catch my drift mate? Scott is SO full of shit that he constantly contradicts himself.[/QUOTE]
Really, and how so?
[QUOTE]If Star Wars shields are SO good that they can block Matter AND Energy, then WHY could the damn ship simply LAND on the planet? Wouldn't it be... oh, I dont' know... repelled or incinerated by the shield? In Trek you get a nasty ZAP from a simple level 3 force field (First Contact)... imagine hitting a full power high energy shield grid![/QUOTE]
Okay, first of all the shield protected a PORTION of Hoth. They didn;t have enough field generators to cover the whole planet, like Alderaan and COrusacant mong others has.
[QUOTE]FINALLY, there is no "on your nose by the time you react" with Star Wars- their ships are SO slow on screen that the Federation would be prepared LONG before the ship EVER managed to land.[/QUOTE]
Are you shitting me? Oh you must be. It takes HOURS for even the fastest starships to react to a planetary SOS. The ISD would have dropped the the troopers and their prefab military base and placed in orbit several small defense sattelites and possibly a planetary fighter garrison. As well as a
[QUOTE]Another idea- DS9's self replicating, cloaked minefields. We'll simply put these around our planets. Since physical objects pass unabated thru your shields (by your own reasoning) they'll simply impact against your hull and detonate combining 500 some odd pounds of matter and antimatter at once.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so you are willing to surround your planet with cloaked mines, thus cutting off your own ships. Then you find out when the ISD arrive that they can detect the cloaks, by their grvity signatures. beaing the evil snots they are they lock a tractor beam on a few and then realse it breaking the mines orbit and luaghhing their asses off as the mines fall into your planet. Oh and A cloaking field is a shield (low intensity one but still a shield) and shielded objects tend to react with partialce and ray shielding.
[QUOTE]Better STILL- disruptors! They expand and compress your hull a million times a second. I doubt DuraSteel would be able to stand up to that.[/QUOTE]
Disprupters would not even be able to get through the shields any better than Phasers.
[QUOTE]And don't forget Plasma Torpedos ala TOS. They wrap around your ship and IMPLOAD with a force unmatched by any other single conventional weapon in Trek! Think 1/4 the Death Star superlaser imploading upon your ship :D (numbers are NOT run and I am merely making a similie)[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding again. A Plasma torpedo is about 12 photon torpedoes in strength. If we go strictly by SI that is 300 tons of TNT. as Iso is 10^0
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419707]Here is PROOF against the whole Neutronium thing:
Star Wars Neutronium [/quote]
Ah I see you have been ripping off Dark Star?
[QUOTE]1. Found in veins on a moon. (Cracken's Threat Dossier)
2. A heavy metallic element. (SWS, Rebel Dawn, etc.)
3. When alloyed with the other metals iomite and zersium, can be made into durasteel. (CTD)
4. Durasteel rods can be bent by an angry woman.
("Daala turned and ripped one of the electric-blue glowtorches from the floor behind her. 'Enough!' she shouted. She raised the durasteel staff high and smashed it down upon the tabletop. The glowcrystal exploded into shards with crackling blue sparks, and transparent fragments flew in all directions. She hammered the rod down again and again, denting the table, bending the staff, and fragmenting the end." (Darksaber, p. 133) [/QUOTE]
1. Actually the Neutronium found in that moon was mixed with the iomite and zersium and all the other making of Dura Armor in the proper proportions. the find was so important that one factions entire ship building operation was moved to that moon. The CTD goes on to speculate that the find was from ancient crash sight.
2. So, it doesn't seem any different than how ST treats it.
3. Again no diffent than ST treats it
4. Forgot to mention the woman in question had muscular enhancement, also that a glow torch is no different than a Torche Lamp today a hollow tube of light sheet steel.
As it is the whole attack is a strawman. Dura Steel is amanin structural element much like steel is today. There is premium steel and lesser varieties. Hell for example a Chevy Citation is constructed of Steel and so is a M1 Tank, but would you conclude that becuase a Citation suffer horredous damage striking a tree at 60mph that a M1 would suffer similiar damage?
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419731]By the way- in Revenge of the Sith, it is stated that DURASTEEL melted when in contact with LAVA...
that's not terribly hot compared to the plasma of a starship... so no plasma based propulsion, power, or weapons for you scott.[/QUOTE]
Do you know why there was a mining facility on that planet? Becuase that Lava you saw was not molten rock but molten metals. Besides show me a Federation device that survived molten lava without it's shields. Hell Enterprise D was almost destroyed by flying in an atmosphere.
[QUOTE=Kittamaru;1419916]I'm not saying there can't be some increase, but to generate the kind of power Scott's been babbling on about with the construction materials available? No way.[/QUOTE]
Well, obviously they did it. We can see in ESB that they did it. So obviously you are wrong. Suck it up.
[QUOTE=TW Scott;1421113]Oh god, so you ignored the other point I had.
Do green wave lasers resemble the weapons used in Star Wars? No.
It's your straw man that i refuted completely.
BTW it is not just dust that makes a Green Wave laser visible in atmosphere.[/QUOTE]
Aren't the Imperial weapons green?