Star Wars vs Star Trek

[QUOTE=Oli;1393553]If true? yes "if true".
You can not judge the game produces or the genre's intent...neither can I.

[QUOTE]Not relevant. The point is that the game should not be considered canon UNTIL ratified by other means. Any game on its own - unless stated to be canon - should be disallowed for the reason given in the above posts.[/QUOTE]

Paramounts Canon Policy dictates as much.

[QUOTE]Considering I have just given two more examples of non-canonicity of at least one of the games then the acceptance of games as canon is looking pretty shaky isn't it?[/QUOTE]

acceptance and canon are two different issues. The fans can accept anything they want as canon while Paramount may say otherwise. Ultimately the fans have the power of acceptance.

[QUOTE]Homage to the books - not the race of Kzinti themselves from the books or the game:
[url]http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tzenkethi[/url][/QUOTE]

All had the same intention.

[QUOTE]So it appears that the outcome did not nullify the argument. Tzenkethi are not Kzin. Or are you going to argue for the introduction of fantasy RPG creatures as well, since the name Tzenkethi includes them?
Three examples on non-canon elements in a game, hardly worth allowing games in is it?[/QUOTE]

They are a reasonable representations of the same Idea. Chris Roberts openly stated from where the Kilrathi came from. The events have transpired differently from one genre to another or universe to another.
The animated series of Trek did likewise with the writers of that story introducing them from the Idea of the previous books.

From what I've gathered the fans have dictated what is canon over a long period of time litteraly forcing their issue of canon before Paramount accepted it. The Man Kzinith series (as I refer to them) was added to Trek by Fans in influential places....

[QUOTE]You can not judge the game produces or the genre's intent[/QUOTE]
Er, actually I can - the game stated that the Kzin had been added as "fan boy" material, [I]to add game balance[/I], and were not officially recognised. Paramount made them put the disclaimer in before they were allowed to release the game. Smells pretty strongly of "intent" to me.
[QUOTE]The fans can accept anything they want as canon while Paramount may say otherwise. Ultimately the fans have the power of acceptance.[/QUOTE]
Then that would invalidate the entire idea of "canonicity" wouldn't it? The fans decide... waste of time arguing over what is and what is not canon since it could change at a whim.
[QUOTE]The Man Kzinith[/QUOTE]
Why on Earth would you refer to the Kzinti as Kzinith?
Kzinti:
[url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=aFN&q=Kzinti&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]
39,400 results
Kzinith:
[url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KFN&q=kzinith&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]
O results.
And don't even get me started on the "accuracy" of games - far too many compromises made for sake of playability.

[QUOTE=Oli;1393657]Er, actually I can - the game stated that the Kzin had been added as "fan boy" material, [I]to add game balance[/I], and were not officially recognised. Paramount made them put the disclaimer in before they were allowed to release the game. Smells pretty strongly of "intent" to me.[/QUOTE]

Acknowledge.

[QUOTE]Then that would invalidate the entire idea of "canonicity" wouldn't it? [/QUOTE] It often does.

[QUOTE]The fans decide... waste of time arguing over what is and what is not canon since it could change at a whim.[/QUOTE]
There is something to be said for expectation and attention payed to those expectation...yes...what Paramount thinks is ...unimportant.

[QUOTE]Why on Earth would you refer to the Kzinti as Kzinith?
Kzinti:
[url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=aFN&q=Kzinti&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]
39,400 results
Kzinith:
[url]http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KFN&q=kzinith&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]
O results.
And don't even get me started on the "accuracy" of games - far too many compromises made for sake of playability.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree. But as I said...the reasons can't be generalized in those compromized...not always. Often the compromises are made for playability...Like the Hydran, Lyrans and the ISC other times...it's for creativity...other times...(who knows)

[QUOTE=Lord Vasago;1393053]
Let's say Lucas agrees to a spin-off series that takes us 200years in the future of Starwars. The technologie would be awesome.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, theres virtually no difference in technology between Kotor and the movies. Same strength, same technologies. Technology in the SW universe isnt invented nearly as fast as even modern-day Earth... much less SW.

To be completely honest:

An F-14 could go head to head with a Y-Wing and an F-22 raptor could hold it's own against an X-Wing. A-wings would be countered by A2A Missiles and Phalanx systems. TIE Fighters would be fodder for cannon fire (vulcan cannons that is) and TIE Bombers would be prey for things such as Stingers.

So your telling me that a fighter is going to have a higher capacity for shield generators than a Federation Capitol Ship! Where did you get this information from? An ambassador class has multiple shield generators and if Star Wars had shields (from the movies) how are the fighters able to get so close to hull of the star destroyers without lighting up like a fly in a bug zapper? Please give me a list of your source material.:wtf:

[QUOTE=Challenger78;1392814]Please Explain how an ISD has 976 times the firepower when you are still using lasers,[/QUOTE]

Okay, given the givens as listed above the Maxiumum Theoretical yeiedl of a Photon Torpedo is 64 megatons, assuming 1.5 kg Matter/ 1.5kg Antimatter warhead that seems to be standard. I'll be gnerous and assume it is this despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

GCS mounts three Luanchers each cabable of fireing 5 torpedoes with a 30 second reload time. the GCS also mounts 12 phaser arrays all sub 400 gigawatts and probably sub 200 gigawatts given that shields need multiple strikes from phasers to fall. For ease of this assume 300 gigawats phasers. Phasers seem to need a 5 to 30 second rechage rate, for this it will be 5.

Over a minute a GCS can produce
30 Photon Torpedoes at 64 megatons = 1,920 megatons= 1.92 gigatons
144 phaser Strike as 300 gigawatts = 10,324 tons of dynamite= 10.324 kilotons
These are the only weapons used by a GCS so the one minute total is 1,920,010.324 kilotons

That is using extrapolation form data from the shows.



ISD carries 60 Turbolasers which are 70% as powerful as heavy Turbolasers so they produce 8.75 gigatons each. They also carry 60 heavy Ion cannons that produce the an effect of 5.2x 10^18 watts each or the equivalent of 1.25 gigatons if it was a blast. Each of these cannons can fire once every three seconds.

So in one minute
1200 Turbolaser Strikes at 8.75 gigtons each = 10,500 gigatons
1200 Heavy Ion Cannon Strikes at 1.25 gigtons each = 1500 gigatons
Minutely firepoewer output = 12,000 gigatons

Hmm seems I was crediting the GCS a little too much as the Fire power difference favors the ISD 6,249.966 to 1!

[QUOTE=Admiral Lee;1394583]So your telling me that a fighter is going to have a higher capacity for shield generators than a Federation Capitol Ship! Where did you get this information from? An ambassador class has multiple shield generators and if Star Wars had shields (from the movies) how are the fighters able to get so close to hull of the star destroyers without lighting up like a fly in a bug zapper? Please give me a list of your source material.:wtf:[/QUOTE]

Well, yes I am saying that. SW has had 25,000 years as just the Old Republic they had thousands of years before that with FTL. Their technologies have been refined and refined again untill they are completely reliable and unbelievably impressive.


As for Capital ship shields and Fighters, Capital ship shields do not often extend more than a meter beyongd the hull. That is just over three feet. Only vessel to do that was the Death Star and since only fighters came out they just never raised the shields in ANH and when they realized the danger it was already too late they were withing the 200 meter ceiling. But all in all unless a fighter pilot has the ball to fly within a meter, then he doesn't have to worry about capital ship shields.

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1392932]Okay then, the multi-gigaton power conflicts with the fact that Anakin's fighter could barely make a scratch on the Naboo hanger floor.
There, SW weapons are WEAK. From a Movie source.
Dont even try to argue this. It falls under your "hierarchy"[/QUOTE]

Actually no conflict. Artoo would simply have turned down the lasers to not vaporize the people in the hangar. It's in his job description. Plus it is obviously from other scenes that the hangar is shielded No one is saying the light laser cannons are gigatons, but those Proton Torpedoes certialy are. BTW fighter lasers are only megaton level weaponry.

Give him a BIG HAND folks! Isn't he WONDERFUL at stating "facts" he has no way of knowing are even true or not?

Scott, I will tell you once more- provide PROOF from the MOVIES OR BOOKS that the weapons are of that magnitude- either through film diagram diagnostics OR from A STATEMENT MADE BY A CHARACTER IN THE MOVIES/ BOOKS.

Stop making shit up.

TWScott
What evidence do you HAVE that the ISDs shoot at 12.5 Gigatons?
The ICS books are BOGUS.
What is your argument against how the videogames made by [B]LUCASARTS themselves [/B] contradict every statement about the strength of the lasers...
ST shields are [B]IMPERVIOUS [/B]to lasers as said by [B]TV SHOWS.[/B] Not children's books which were written to impress children...

Scott already said that "laser blaster" is not a "laser"

How that works is beyond me, but eh, either way those pea shooters wouldn't bother Trek's shields.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1394624]since only fighters came out they just never raised the shields in ANH and when they realized the danger it was already too late they were withing the 200 meter ceiling. But all in all unless a fighter pilot has the ball to fly within a meter, then he doesn't have to worry about capital ship shields.[/QUOTE]
There is [B]NO evidence[/B] whatsover that the fighters "didnt raise their shields". They may not have had them at all...

[QUOTE=FoolFromHell;1394646]There is [B]NO evidence[/B] whatsover that the fighters "didnt raise their shields". They may not have had them at all...[/QUOTE]

Idiot! I was referring to the Death Star.

Of course the fighters raised their shields in fact you can hear them several times referring to them during the battle.

...

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1394634]Actually no conflict. Artoo would simply have turned down the lasers to not vaporize the people in the hangar. It's in his job description. Plus it is obviously from other scenes that the hangar is shielded No one is saying the light laser cannons are gigatons, but those Proton Torpedoes certialy are. BTW fighter lasers are only megaton level weaponry.[/QUOTE]

how do you know that R2 stopped the vaporization? The controls were 100% manual. R2 had no control over the weapons since Anakin asked R2 to do something and all R2 did was beep and then Anakin switched to manual and destroyed the Driodekas...
The fighters have less than even a ton of TNT damage.
That means that the [B]MOVIE [/B][B]contradicts [/B]the book, and in your "hierarchy of canon", that [B]invalidates [/B]the weapons strength that you have been "defending".
The Peregrine's weapons are FAR superior to the Royal Naboo's Air Foce, which has [B]some of the best fighters[/B] in the galaxy as stated by many books. If the BEST ships were so weak...
Plus, when Anakin shot up the Trade Federation reactor, the initial explosion was [B]SMALL[/B]. The chain-reaction was the thing that destroyed the control-ship.
Your entire argument depends on the ISDs having 12.5 gigatons/ shot, and that "fact" has been DISPROVED YET AGAIN.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1394651]Idiot! I was referring to the Death Star.

Of course the fighters raised their shields in fact you can hear them several times referring to them during the battle.[/QUOTE]

Where in the movie did the Death Star have shields?
If it didnt in the movie, it doesnt in the book.
Why didnt the Death Star in EP IV use its personal shield instead of the Endor shield if its "fully operational"?

Dude, I really need your source material for x wings having shields. Even if they do they cant be more advanced than federation shields when ST weapons have surpassed laser technology before the Enterprise Series Era. Going by that Federation shields would be unaffected by lasers, Star Wars uses Lasers, so if the federation shield and weapon technology is superior then why wouldn't their shield generators be superior?:bugeye:

FoolFromHell, that has been proven many times- Scott is delusional.

The X-Wing does have shields- they're just worthless for more than one or two light blaster (or space dust for that matter) hits.