-
[QUOTE=Prince_James;1307637]Saguist:
Where in the novel does it claim Luke "hibernates" for any long period of time?[/QUOTE]
[B]HEIR TO THE EMPIRE[/B]
Luke uses a Jedi trance to lull his self into sleep to take up less oxygen. Artoo wakes him as the X-Wing drops out of hyperspace.
Ahead there is a ship being tractored by an imperial vessel.
The imperial vessel changes tractor beam to Lukes fighter.
Luke executes a manuver and releases two Proton torps into the tractor beam.
The beam takes the torps instead of the fighter
Luke jumps to hyperspace but burns out his engines in the manuver.
Jainia...
Jacen...
Anakin...
This is a regular occurence.
And it was DAYS not hours...Up to a week in Hyperspace to travel from one end of the Galaxy to another.
-
[QUOTE=Prince_James;1309091]Saguist:
One cannot establish "sub kiloton" power ranges when one is dealing with the material of spaceships. It is, again, the equivalent of saying a sword is as powerful as a machine gun because one can cut through chainmail and the other can blow through kevlar.[/QUOTE]
Yes...but I didn't say a sword was as powerful as a machine gun.
[B]Statement of Analogy:[/B] Unequal
There is clear progression from low to high and kill to damage...
All...with the same weapon.
I don't knowwhat your post was trying to accomplish but you need come up with something else other than "the sword and the stone" bit..
-
Saguist:
You fail to take into account a simple thing: Not all hyperspace routes are equal. A convoluted route will take longer than the Hylian Way. Just as it takes longer to go through city streets than a freeway.
Also, the matter was -oxygen- not speed. If the trip takes long enough, or oxygen is slowly leaking, than even if it is a matter of hours, hibernating is needed.
[quote]Yes...but I didn't say a sword was as powerful as a machine gun.
Statement of Analogy: Unequal[/quote]
You essentially did, actually. You said that the explosions seen in various explosions against armoured/shielded vehicles could be calculated from their blast effects, without taking into consideration the armour. If one went by this, one would have to concede that a sword and machine gun were equal, as they can both penetrate different materials with ease.
-
[QUOTE=Prince_James;1309191]Saguist:
You fail to take into account a simple thing: Not all hyperspace routes are equal. A convoluted route will take longer than the Hylian Way. Just as it takes longer to go through city streets than a freeway.[/QUOTE]
I do not understand.
Relate source material.
[QUOTE]Also, the matter was -oxygen- not speed. If the trip takes long enough, or oxygen is slowly leaking, than even if it is a matter of hours, hibernating is needed.[/QUOTE]
I do not understand.
Source material did not state a leak. Luke's X wing had incurred no damage.
[QUOTE]
You essentially did, actually. You said that the explosions seen in various explosions against armoured/shielded vehicles could be calculated from their blast effects, without taking into consideration the armour. If one went by this, one would have to concede that a sword and machine gun were equal, as they can both penetrate different materials with ease.[/QUOTE]
Essential means...basicly. You're saying I said I'm judgeing fire power based on explosion effects.
[I]Let's review once more shalls we?[/I]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. [B]Effect:[/B] sub [I]kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs[/I]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter [B]Effect [/B] Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground.
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster [B]Effect:[/B] sub-kilo watt..(very)
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. [B]Effect[/B] moderate damage
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: [B] Effect:[/B] Damage the same
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids. Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter [B]Effect:[/B] near Kiloton effect.
You see...It's not based on armor....It's based on the Tank missing and destroying a section of meadow. The Control is the naboo fighter. The second Control are the Astromech droids.
Essentialy the Tank proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the fire power Wong says is there is actuallly nowhere to be found in canon. His calcuations may be right and the may be wrong but it doesn't matter because canon has been established as sub-kilo tons.
This is a flawless Observation of the events. No Grandizing no Underestimation...just Observation.
-
The truth is...If a Star Destroyer has any where near the fire power of a Trade Federation Starship...then Trek has little to fear.
As a Star Destroyer enegaes a Galaxy class vessel it may be more powerful as a larger ships and strong armor. But the battle favors the Galaxy's shields and superior weapons.
Observe: Galaxy class tunneling a shaft so two kilometers down in the space of 10 seconds
Observe: Romulan Warbird melting down the entrance to the asteroid in seconds. The area greater than a Galaxy class starship.
Observe: Borg Cube carves out human settlement on New Providence.
Observe: Captain Sisko plants an explosive device that destroy a asteroid based Ketrasel White facility. Explosion has a damage radius of no less than 10,000 meters.
Trek has since been establish it's power against asteroids. explosions spread more rapidly and appear larger in space but they seem to be on the order of 100's of thousands of kiloton's.
Is that there limit? It obviously isn't.
The Ketracel White facitly.
The Proto matter- trilythium resin explosive
The Proto mater warhead of the Geneisis device
The Praxis explosion. (acidental) took out a moon.
Voyagers system wide 200 isoton war head
No...they have the power. But that's not what it takes to get through Federation shields...You'll have to do much better than that.
So...Star Wars is more popular but not stronger than Star Trek.
Star Gate
Star Trek
Star Wars
Dune
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[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]I'm waiting for those several examples then.
[/quote]
Episode1:
Queen Amidala's ship lands on Tatooine in the early morning.
*
Qui-Gon, Jar-Jar, Padme, and R2-D2 venture into Mos Espa in search of replacement parts for their ship, where they meet Watto, Anakin, and Sebulba. The sandstorm begins, and Anakin invites them to his home.
*
Queen Amidala receives the forged transmission from Sio Bibble, pleading her to communicate with him (and thus reveal her location). Although she apparently acquiesces to Obi-Wan's instructions not to send any transmissions, she probably finds a way to send a transmission when he is distracted. We know this because somehow, Darth Sidious obtains a communications trace on their location at Tatooine.
*
Anakin brings his new friends home and introduces everyone. They have lunch, thus indicating that this probably occurs around high noon. Anakin tells them that he can help them leave the planet by winning the podrace which is "tomorrow."
*
Darth Sidious instructs Darth Maul to go to Tatooine.
*
After lunch, Anakin spends the afternon working on his podracer. Later that afternoon, Qui-Gon makes his bet with Watto, and as night falls, Qui-Gon takes Anakin's blood sample for analysis.
*
Darth Maul lands at dusk, and begins searching for the Jedi. In a nice touch of realism, we can actually see Darth Maul's ship heading toward the transition from the sunlit side of Tatooine to its shadow side, thus establishing that he already has a pretty good idea of where the Jedi are on Tatooine, and also establishing that the visual effects artists deliberately ensured that his angle of approach would be consistent with a twilight landing.
*
The next morning, Anakin wins the podrace.
What does all of this mean? It means that Darth Maul travelled from Coruscant to Tatooine in the time between noon and nightfall (between 6 and 12 hours).
Episode III
Hoo boy. Coruscant>Mustafar: Really freaking fast. Palpatine sensed his apprentice was in trouble, took a shuttle, and arrived just as Obi-Wan was leaving. Not surprising, given that Padme also flew there in under an hour. 50,000LY.
EpisodeIV:
Tatooine to Alderaan: "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."
This indicates that the trip from Tattooine in the Outer Rim to Alderaan in the Galactic Core takes less than one day. Otherwise, Solo would have included a date or a number of days along with the time
Alderaan to Yavin: We know the Death Star arrived less than a day after the death of Obi-Wan, and that the Falcon arrived hours earlier.
EpisodeV:
Hoth to Dagobah: Luke navigated MANUALLY (Much to Artoo's dismay) as Dagobah wasn't on the navigational charts. Jedi are known to employ an instinctive astrogation ability at times. Anyway, this explains any sort of hibernation, as the trip likely took days due to having no established hyperspace route (explicitly stated, Dagobah wasn't on the charts). Most starfighter pilots can't do the jedi hibernation thing. Most starfighter pilots also can't plot their own hyperspace routes on the fly. It's a regular occurrence when you're dealing with the Skywalkers, and I'm fine with that.
Episode VI
The real meat here is Sullust (Where the rebel fleet was staging) to Endor.
"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."
That gives a lower limit of 200 light years Sullust-Endor.
The quote above from the novelization takes place after Luke was captured. The space battle starts shortly after Skywalker enters the Emperor's observation room, and it's doubtful it took more than a half hour to transport him to the deathstar (we know SW vessels can go surface-orbit in a matter of seconds to minutes). At 300LY/half hour, that means the rebel fleet moved together at 3.5 million c.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
I don't have to. I just have to prove your rationalizing with out canon stock.
For instance. Artoo needs a direct order to lower that power (nevermind his penchant of taking the initiative) You need to establish that action or initiative was taken in this sitiutation.[/quote]
No really, I don't. We know they have a higher, established canon maximum firepower behind me. I don't have to prove what's already canon. We have a very good reason why maximum firepower was (obviously) not used in the hanger, and how it could have been implemented. Occam's razor, and it's not contradicted by known evidence.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
You're rationalizing that an event took place that no cannon says took place. IF you can find an exact duplication of these event and show that an artoo unit took control of the weapons from the Pilot. I would be incline to believe you.[/quote]
We know Artoo is fully capable of handling all operations of a starfighter. He flew an X-Wing and fired the weapons to aid Luke in the incident with Jorus C'Baoth.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
Additional:
Alter your perspective of what is superior canon.
I'm inclined to believe that you think that superior canon can be dictated in every recourse in that if one canon does not stipulate and a superior canon does you favor the superior canon.
This is not the instruction I recieved from TWScott. I quote: "Only if superior canon is contradicted by books novels comics..."[/quote]
You've demonstrated a consistent lack of understanding of LFL canon policy throughout this debate. Lower canon stands unless contradicted by higher canon. Movies trump all, Novels of the movies trump EU novels, sourcebooks for the movies trump EU sourcebooks. if it has 'episode x' attached, it overrides other same-level sources.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
Only at upper power levels that you say the ships are capable of. Of course I argue these fighters are nowhere near that power level and I've already proven it with out calculations or estimations. The visiual evidence surficed.
Visual eviedence concludes that exchanges of fire power aren't at levels of mass destruction.
ie: Tanks vs Ground units. [B]sub kiloton[/B] Geonosis
Tanks vs starfighters. [B]sub kiloton [/B] Naboo
Fighters vs Star ships. [B]kiloton range.[/B] Naboo
Fighters vs asteroids. [B]sub kilton[/B] Geonosis Hoth Asteroid Belt
These figures progress predictablly. One unit capable destroying another the most inferior unit showing inferior weapon ability on terristrial units, then firing on superior units with sucess.[/quote]
Yet you ignore visual evidence that doesn't agree with the bigger numbers. (ISD vs Asteroid, Slave1 vs Asteroid, MonCal vs ISD, Death Star vs Alderaan, Han Solo vs Docking Bay, Clonetrooper Rifle vs SBD, LAAT vs Trade Fed cruiser) You can't pick and choose the lower examples and ignore the ones that show maximum firepower.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
Artoo units were destroyed by Trade Federation Turbo lasers (obliterated not vaporized)[/quote]
The royal yacht's shields were down, and the Trade Federation ships were accurately bracketing the ship, and PICKING DROIDS OFF ITS SKIN, demonstrating astounding fire control. you know they wanted to capture Padme alive, right?
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
Artoo then went forth t fly in X-wing fighters.
Artoo has been damaged by blaster fire: Endor
He was damaged by a direct hit by Tie Fighter lasers
Naboo fighters are effected by terristial unit firepower
Arfor also was scorched by fighter lasers. The jedi fighter was damaged by the same fire power.[/quote]
Are you watching the same movies? A blaster bolt hit the panel that Artoo was plugged into, sending a power feedback up through his probe.
Artoo was damaged, through shields, by Tie Fighter lasers, via the same splintering affect that we see throughout Episode IV when dealing with blaster/shield interactions. Luke's shields were not down, a portion of the bolt got through the shielding and hit Artoo. ObiWan's interceptor absorbed multiple 2-kiloton hits before its shields were depleted enough to take armor damage through them. At that point, Fett fired a missile to finish him off.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
The truth is...If a Star Destroyer has any where near the fire power of a Trade Federation Starship...then Trek has little to fear.[/quote]
Because a Trade Fed control ship (this was before most Lucrehulks were fully converted, later battleships had hundreds of gun mounts) were firing their quadlasers and destroying starfighters, with no reason to assume that was their maximum firepower, or that any larger guns, if present (We know later battleships had medium and heavy turbolasers, but the control ship in Episode I appeared to only have the light quad batteries) were even used.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]As a Star Destroyer enegaes a Galaxy class vessel it may be more powerful as a larger ships and strong armor. But the battle favors the Galaxy's shields and superior weapons.[/quote]
The Galaxy's shields, which were dropped in one shot by a 400 gigawatt weapon ([i]STtNG:Survivors[/i]. right. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
Voyagers system wide 200 isoton war head[/quote]
System wide what? You're just making up stuff now. Are you attempting to refer to the "multikinetic neutronic" bullshitium mine with a theoretical 5 million isoton yield?
[quote=VOY: Scorpion Part 2]
TUVOK: An explosion that size could affect an entire star system.
7 of 9: Correct. The shockwave will disperse the nanoprobes over a radius of 5 light years. [/quote]
must be quite the explosion to accelerate nanoprobes past the speed of light. Either way, that's just to scatter little nanoprobes over 5 lightyears. by 'affect' Tuvok obviously means 'distribute probes across'. This, like the Praxis event, is just a superluminal shockwave that seems to have little effect on realspace objects. (Quo'nos was lightyears from the Praxis event, and lost its ozone layer) in Voyager: [i]The Omega Directive[/i] Voyager was tossed around by a superluminal explosion originating from a moon over a light year away.. yet the explosion did not damage the moon, nor the surface structures on it! I think something with the subspace field generated by warp drives makes vessels more vulnerable to this sort of effect.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]No...they have the power. But that's not what it takes to get through Federation shields...You'll have to do much better than that.[/quote]
What can't get through federation shields? that would be a much shorter list.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309028]
HENCE. We can conclude with out a tedious and unsubstaniated set of calcuations that since Artoo units are used so often and have recieved so much battle damage from both hand, Star fighter and Starship fire power...that Star Wars doesn not have any sort of megaton or GiGAton power in it's lasers.[/quote]
We can conclude that you're full of shit, for reasons above. The high firepower numbers are established by canon, and not disproved by your pitiful attempts that ignore every single film example that disagrees with your lowball suggestions.
-
Saguist:
[QUOTE]I do not understand.
Relate source material.[/QUOTE]
Right-o, skip.
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace_routes[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Trade_Spine[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Perlemian_Trade_Route[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hydian_Way[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metellos_Trade_Route[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rimma_Trade_Route[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Corellian_Run[/url]
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxy[/url] - Has the maps which shows the positions.
Each of these routes were the Autobahns of Star Wars. Hyperspace travel would reach its maximum speed with utter safety. Hundreds of millions of ships each month would transverse tens of thousands of lightyears within hours by using these. ON the other hand, more distant worlds could take longer times by having no direct-routes, often through dangerous space (for hyperspace).
Hyperspace, remember, is roughly linear-travel. Course corrections and changes of direction can be made, but for the safest travel, one tries to minimize hyperspace navigation. The speed at which one is going precludes most course corrections. It's simply safer to drop from hyperspace, reorient the ship, and shoot off into that direction.
Warp is slow enough for reasonable reactions.
[QUOTE]I do not understand.
Source material did not state a leak. Luke's X wing had incurred no damage.[/QUOTE]
An X-Wing is a fighter. It has a limited supply of oxygen - presumably no more than a day or so, maximum, without refilling (say through ducking into a planet). Accordingly, if the trip takes longer than that, one would suffocate.
[QUOTE]Let's review once more shalls we?
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. Effect: sub kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter Effect Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground.
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster Effect: sub-kilo watt..(very)
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. Effect moderate damage
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: Effect: Damage the same
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids. Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter Effect: near Kiloton effect.[/QUOTE]
First we must consider the types of weapons being employed. Fighters, after all, cannot rip their maximum power shots in limited areas, can they? Lest they suffer damage, including such simple ones as being blinded by the luminscence?
Also, presumably, astromechs would be built with the same material as fighters, considering they were meant to work outside fighters for spot-damage repair and hyperspace computation.
[QUOTE]You see...It's not based on armor....It's based on the Tank missing and destroying a section of meadow. The Control is the naboo fighter. The second Control are the Astromech droids.[/QUOTE]
Do you think it is reasonable for a ground-based tank to unleash power enough to violently explode meadows?
[QUOTE]Voyagers system wide 200 isoton war head[/QUOTE]
When does Voyager destroy a system with a single warhead?
-
[QUOTE=Saquist;1309233]Observe: Galaxy class tunneling a shaft so two kilometers down in the space of 10 seconds
Observe: Romulan Warbird melting down the entrance to the asteroid in seconds. The area greater than a Galaxy class starship.
Observe: Borg Cube carves out human settlement on New Providence.
Observe: Captain Sisko plants an explosive device that destroy a asteroid based Ketrasel White facility. Explosion has a damage radius of no less than 10,000 meters.[/quote]
Okay
One shaft tunneled through Granite 5 meter diameter for 2,000 meters is 39269.9 cubic meters which is 37,940,908,409,250 joules over ten seconds which is 3,794,090,840,925. joules per full second of firing. Compare this to in ESB and an ISD vaporizing a 40 meter asteroid (the smallest in the scene) in 1/15th of a second which takes 57,505,094,232,075.20.
Again
37,940,908,409,250 over 10 seconds
57,505,094,232,075.20 over 1/15 second
Now assuming that the Enterprise only used one Phaser Bank (unlikely) this means a Turbolaser is a [B]minimum[/B] of 227 times as powerful as a Phaser X.
The Romulan Warbird melting down the entrance is relative impossibility. Any idiot knows that in a vaccuum any melted solid boils immediately becoming vapor. Now given the standard incompetence of Federation training the more likely result is that they caved it in used tractor bean and disruptors to fuse the rock together. You will also note that Rikers assesment for getting out of there was that every Photon torpedo would need to be used in order to break out of a hollowed out 5km rock. Hardly the effect megaton level firepower.
Oh yes, the Borg attack a civillian colony that has not appreciable defenses, great argument.
As for the planeted explosive, don't you think all those volatile chemicals might be explosive. A 5 km is nothing watch the Seismic charge scene in Attack of the Clones again, and remeber that isn't even considered a military grade weapon.
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[QUOTE=Saquist;1309211]Essential means...basicly. You're saying I said I'm judgeing fire power based on explosion effects.
[I]Let's review once more shalls we?[/I]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. [B]Effect:[/B] sub [I]kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs[/I]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter [B]Effect [/B] Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground.
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster [B]Effect:[/B] sub-kilo watt..(very)
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. [B]Effect[/B] moderate damage
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: [B] Effect:[/B] Damage the same
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids. Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter [B]Effect:[/B] near Kiloton effect
You see...It's not based on armor....It's based on the Tank missing and destroying a section of meadow. The Control is the naboo fighter. The second Control are the Astromech droids.
Essentialy the Tank proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the fire power Wong says is there is actuallly nowhere to be found in canon. His calcuations may be right and the may be wrong but it doesn't matter because canon has been established as sub-kilo tons.
This is a flawless Observation of the events. No Grandizing no Underestimation...just Observation.[/QUOTE]
Oh man talk stupidity
Watch ROTJ again, Artoo is not damaged by that Blaster Rifle shot, his is merely shorted out. And that only happened becuase he was opening himself up for computer communication. Artoo suffered no physical damage from that shot.
As for ther Tanks taking fighters but the stray shots only tearing up ground, were you there to measure how deep that hole was? Do you know how moist it was, it's composition, or if perhaps was using lower power shots so it could fire more often? No, you have no idea. So your observation is flawed.
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[QUOTE=Saquist;1246422]There were only 25,000 thousand Star Destroyers at the Peak of the Emprie as stated in Timothy Zahn's novel Heir to the Empire.[/QUOTE]
Actually, that was in the old West End Games Imperial Sourcebook, and those were Imperator Star Destroyers. There are many more Star Destroyers, considering that the Old Republic casually ordered a thousand more Acclamator Variants including battleship-sized ones, which would qualify as Star Destroyers.
[QUOTE=Kron;1257886]Leto was able to predict at a range of 3000 years. Paul blinded himself by rejecting the sacrifice that he would have to take in order to bring about the universe he wanted. Name me an incident of incredibly accurate SW prescience?[/QUOTE]
"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."-Kreia on the Mandalorians
"Do not doubt that a Galaxy can be conquered with words, a Republic overthrown, and an Empire created."-Kreia on the Future of the Jedi
When Old Republic Scouts found Iktotch they a plateau on the largest continent of the planet with a giant Old Republic Seal carved into it, the xenobiologists later discovered the Iktotchi had a predisposition to Force powers though primarily only Prescient, this is why they made such pilots and Saesee Tiin was arguably the best Starfighter Ace the Jedi Order had alongside Anakin.
-
[B]The Following Excuses Offered by Sian:[/B]
[QUOTE]No really, I don't. We know they have a higher, established canon maximum firepower behind me. I don't have to prove what's already canon. We have a very good reason why maximum firepower was (obviously) not used in the hanger, and how it could have been implemented. Occam's razor, and it's not contradicted by known evidence.[/QUOTE]
[B]Excuse #1:[/B] Using inferrior canon to justifiy a film canon after a direct contradication is shown
We have? I must have missed something critical like proof
[QUOTE]We know Artoo is fully capable of handling all operations of a starfighter. He flew an X-Wing and fired the weapons to aid Luke in the incident with Jorus C'Baoth[/QUOTE]
[B]Excuse #2[/B] Why not even if it did happen theres nothing to say it didn't. Let's rationalize instead of offer a counter canon example.
Does not extablish the action in question.
[QUOTE]You've demonstrated a consistent lack of understanding of LFL canon policy throughout this debate. Lower canon stands unless contradicted by higher canon. Movies trump all, Novels of the movies trump EU novels, sourcebooks for the movies trump EU sourcebooks. if it has 'episode x' attached, it overrides other same-level sources[/QUOTE]
[B]Stalling:[/B] #1
Excellent: We've now established that there is a visual record that overrides any non canon revelations.
[QUOTE]The royal yacht's shields were down, and the Trade Federation ships were accurately bracketing the ship, and PICKING DROIDS OFF ITS SKIN, demonstrating astounding fire control. you know they wanted to capture Padme alive, right?[/QUOTE]
[B]Stalling #2[/B]
[B]State the Obvious:[/B] Nothing to do with the conversation just throw it in there.
We know they never hit the ship. That is the only thing we truely know.
I assure you I'm not ignoring anything. But I'm not rationalizing and excusing away either like you are.
You're failing to acknoledge that the Artoo units were obliterated. Is this or is this not true...stop making excuses.
[QUOTE]Are you watching the same movies? A blaster bolt hit the panel that Artoo was plugged into, sending a power feedback up through his probe.[/QUOTE]
[B]Excuse #3[/B] ???
You're making more excues. The blaster bolt hit the extension he inserted not the panel. And it is still factual that he was damaged. More excuses... I'm counting from here on out....If you're going to split the hair I might as well keep track untill you finally lie.
[QUOTE]Artoo was damaged, through shields, by Tie Fighter lasers, via the same splintering affect that we see throughout Episode IV when dealing with blaster/shield interactions. Luke's shields were not down, a portion of the bolt got through the shielding and hit Artoo. ObiWan's interceptor absorbed multiple 2-kiloton hits before its shields were depleted enough to take armor damage through them. At that point, Fett fired a missile to finish him off.[/QUOTE]
[B]Excuse #4[/B]
Now you know I wasn't gonna except your numbers. Why bother?
Here's what I don't know. If the shields were up or down. Doesn't really matter the damage was the same. Star Wars has several marked episodes of shields being up and shots passing cleanly through them to damage a critical system. The comparison I made doesn't make excuses like you do it just acknowledges the damage was debilitating.
Excuse # 5 And its a fat one. No proof that it was a light Turbo laser either.
[QUOTE]Because a Trade Fed control ship (this was before most Lucrehulks were fully converted, later battleships had hundreds of gun mounts) were firing their quadlasers and destroying starfighters, with no reason to assume that was their maximum firepower, or that any larger guns, if present (We know later battleships had medium and heavy turbolasers, but the control ship in Episode I appeared to only have the light quad batteries) were even used.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going by what you think is canon. You're obviously biased. And you're making excuses instead of relying on canon to prove me wrong.
[B]Stalling # 3[/B]
[QUOTE]The Galaxy's shields, which were dropped in one shot by a 400 gigawatt weapon (STtNG:Survivors. right. [/QUOTE]
I don't know about that. But what ever gets you through the day.
[QUOTE]must be quite the explosion to accelerate nanoprobes past the speed of light. Either way, that's just to scatter little nanoprobes over 5 lightyears. by 'affect' Tuvok obviously means 'distribute probes across'. This, like the Praxis event, is just a superluminal shockwave that seems to have little effect on realspace objects. (Quo'nos was lightyears from the Praxis event, and lost its ozone layer) in Voyager: The Omega Directive Voyager was tossed around by a superluminal explosion originating from a moon over a light year away.. yet the explosion did not damage the moon, nor the surface structures on it! I think something with the subspace field generated by warp drives makes vessels more vulnerable to this sort of effect.[/QUOTE]
[B]Lie: #1[/B] [I]No one said anything about past the speed of light.[/I]
Incorrect: No star system is 5 ly across. Earth's system is a mere 100 au across to the Oort cloud boundary. That's 9 billions miles. Fa,r Far, FAR, FAR shy, FAR FAR FAR FAR shy of 1 light year, 5.8 trillion miles let alone 5 times that.
So yes...solar system wide explosion as they didn't want to harm entire solar systems.
[QUOTE]We can conclude that you're full of shit, for reasons above. The high firepower numbers are established by canon, and not disproved by your pitiful attempts that ignore every single film example that disagrees with your lowball suggestions.[/QUOTE]
My, my, we must have hit pretty close to the mark to get you all riled up lack that, huh. All this canon talk getting to you? Losing you civilized sensiibilities, are we?
I know what it is...you must be getting tired of interpreting cannon into lame excuses as you've done over and over again. Each time now you state difinititively that the calculations and the books are right....However I did just prove with superior canon that they are not.
You offered... excuses instead of directly contradicting cannon evidence. You know what that means right Sian? You failed to prove your argument.
[B]So All them Excuses and all that stalling and not a shred of superior cannon to cancel out my premise. You're outstanding. I wasn't that I didn't think you'd be different...It was that you talk so factually...but in the end a Star Wars fan is a Star Wars fan. They never give up.[/B]
-
[QUOTE=Prince_James;1309566]Saguist:
[url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxy[/url] - Has the maps which shows the positions.
First we must consider the types of weapons being employed. Fighters, after all, cannot rip their maximum power shots in limited areas, can they? Lest they suffer damage, including such simple ones as being blinded by the luminscence?
[/QUOTE]
Gentlemen, I'am not out to disprove everything Star Wars has ever done.
I already knew this. The Hyperlanes are talked about a Great deal in the New Jedi Order. I see what you're saying and I for one have believed what the movies have said about the speed of Hyperspace. (on the other side of the Galaxy by now)
Sian gave better proof of how fast Hyperspace works. That being said...we really don't know the hours of rotation for these planets.
I have nothing to contest what you're saying except the inferior canon of the books.
This is a direct contradiction: It has been noted. Superior canon stands
P.S. The fighter thing didn't matter...it took a couple of days in the Falcon, The Jade Shadow, the X wings, the Mon Mothma...The Galaxy is portrayed as much bigger in the books, since the film doesn't establish it at all.
-
[QUOTE=TW Scott;1309813]Okay
One shaft tunneled through Granite 5 meter diameter for 2,000 meters is 39269.9 cubic meters which is 37,940,908,409,250 joules over ten seconds which is 3,794,090,840,925. joules per full second of firing. Compare this to in ESB and an ISD vaporizing a 40 meter asteroid (the smallest in the scene) in 1/15th of a second which takes 57,505,094,232,075.20.
Again
37,940,908,409,250 over 10 seconds
57,505,094,232,075.20 over 1/15 second
Now assuming that the Enterprise only used one Phaser Bank (unlikely) this means a Turbolaser is a [B]minimum[/B] of 227 times as powerful as a Phaser X.
The Romulan Warbird melting down the entrance is relative impossibility. Any idiot knows that in a vaccuum any melted solid boils immediately becoming vapor. Now given the standard incompetence of Federation training the more likely result is that they caved it in used tractor bean and disruptors to fuse the rock together. You will also note that Rikers assesment for getting out of there was that every Photon torpedo would need to be used in order to break out of a hollowed out 5km rock. Hardly the effect megaton level firepower.
Oh yes, the Borg attack a civillian colony that has not appreciable defenses, great argument.
As for the planeted explosive, don't you think all those volatile chemicals might be explosive. A 5 km is nothing watch the Seismic charge scene in Attack of the Clones again, and remeber that isn't even considered a military grade weapon.[/QUOTE]
SCOTT!!! Scotty!!! sweety pie...look over here for a moment.
I'm not trusting your calcuations. I can't confirm it and you didn't put down your math to prove it.
I'm gonna count for you in numbers we both can handle. You lied not once, twice, twee times....a lady....As granny says..."I ain't stud'n about none of that."
I'm sticking to what I can prove. You made the rules so stick to 'em. Use canon.
-
I'm not even going to touch most of this, as it's clear that I'm not getting through your thick, stupid skull, but I have to point out the most blatant problems.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310158]
You're failing to acknoledge that the Artoo units were obliterated. Is this or is this not true...stop making excuses.[/quote]
no I'm not. the Artoos clearly were by visual film evidence. What does that have to do with it though?
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310158]
Excuse # 5 And its a fat one. No proof that it was a light Turbo laser either.
I'm not going by what you think is canon. You're obviously biased. And you're making excuses instead of relying on canon to prove me wrong.[/quote]
And you're using a lot of words that say essentially nothing. Fact: We don't see weapons fire from the trade fed control ship heavier than the quad anti-fighter batteries during the Battle of Naboo. Prove me wrong or step off.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310158]
[B]Lie: #1[/B] [I]No one said anything about past the speed of light.[/I]
Incorrect: No star system is 5 ly across. Earth's system is a mere 100 au across to the Oort cloud boundary. That's 9 billions miles. Fa,r Far, FAR, FAR shy, FAR FAR FAR FAR shy of 1 light year, 5.8 trillion miles let alone 5 times that.[/quote]
HAHAHA. Now here you're just plain wrong. Pluto's orbit is 30-50 AU. The Oort cloud extends 50,000-100,000 AU, or about one light year. Of course we already have ample proof from previous posts that science isn't your strong point.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310158]
I know what it is...you must be getting tired of interpreting cannon into lame excuses as you've done over and over again. Each time now you state difinititively that the calculations and the books are right....However I did just prove with superior canon that they are not.[/quote]
I'm getting tired of arguing with you when you aren't supplying anything that isn't blatantly incorrect. I can only put up with incompetence for so long. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHAT SUPERIOR CANON? I haven't seen it. All I have gotten from you is distorted perceptions, wild unfounded claims and a complete lack of substance. It's like arguing with a creationist. I've given you plenty of canon references that you can't just disregard, that show a clear advantage of Star Wars over Star Trek in: manufacturing capability, starship propulsion, starship shields, armor technology, weapons targeting, weapons output. If you still think you can refute any of that, get crackin', bucky.
-
[QUOTE=Sian;1310548]I'm not even going to touch most of this, as it's clear that I'm not getting through your thick, stupid skull, but I have to point out the most blatant problems.[/QUOTE]
[B]Irrelevant:[/B]
[QUOTE]no I'm not. the Artoos clearly were by visual film evidence. What does that have to do with it though?[/QUOTE]
[B]The question is why were you rationalizing on power levels when it's clear there is no direct correlation to light or turbo power levels in this part of the story.[/B]
[QUOTE]And you're using a lot of words that say essentially nothing. Fact: We don't see weapons fire from the trade fed control ship heavier than the quad anti-fighter batteries during the Battle of Naboo. Prove me wrong or step off.[/QUOTE]
I[B] don't intend to...I concur.
Turbo lasers that don't do much.[/B]
[QUOTE]HAHAHA. Now here you're just plain wrong. Pluto's orbit is 30-50 AU. The Oort cloud extends 50,000-100,000 AU, or about one light year. Of course we already have ample proof from previous posts that science isn't your strong point.[/QUOTE]
[B]You're laughable. It's 100 AU's for the Oort cloud boundary. You're so...so laughaable...I'm sorry. The solar system is not a light year wide...where do you get this crap from?
I'm looking at a book right now...It says 100 AU...Not a light year.[/B]
[QUOTE]I'm getting tired of arguing with you when you aren't supplying anything that isn't blatantly incorrect. [/QUOTE]
[B]GOOD...walk away... I'm sure the door won't hitya on the way out.[/B]
[QUOTE]I can only put up with incompetence for so long. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? WHAT SUPERIOR CANON?[/QUOTE]
[B][I]Let's review once more shalls we?
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. Effect: sub kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter Effect Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground.
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster Effect: sub-kilo watt..(very)
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. Effect moderate damage
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: Effect: Damage the same
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids. Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter Effect: near Kiloton effect[/I][/B]
[QUOTE]I haven't seen it.[/QUOTE]
A little blind are we?
[QUOTE]All I have gotten from you is distorted perceptions,[/QUOTE]
distorted is everything most Star Wars fans can relate to you're no different.
[QUOTE]wild[/QUOTE]
really?
[QUOTE]unfounded [/QUOTE]
It was based off canon. In fact it was nothing but canon...I didn't pull out any calcuator and make up any dimensions like you did. Not to mention Wong and Robert Anderson...Just straight unadulterated canon.
[QUOTE]claims [/QUOTE]
[B]working on your lie count...It's not a claim it's an observation. And fairly obvious too.[/B]
[QUOTE]and a complete lack of substance.[/QUOTE]
[B]That would be all the rationalizing you did to my canon observations.[/B]
[QUOTE]It's like arguing with a creationist.[/QUOTE]
[B]...Or an evolutionist.[/B]
[QUOTE]I've given you plenty of canon references [/QUOTE]
[B]Speculation.[/B]
[QUOTE]that you can't just disregard,[/QUOTE]
[B]Speculation is very disregardable.[/B]
[QUOTE] that show a clear advantage of Star Wars over Star Trek in[/QUOTE]:
[B]Except in fire power, and shields, targeting
It seems speed is the only thing, oh and production, is the only thing Star Wars has over the Federation...But the Dominion is superior to Star Wars in general.[/B]
[B]Simply put a fighter that gets dropped by a Tank that doesn't sport much fire power than a hundred pounds of TNT is going to be sporting weapons that cooked Artoo units aren't going to be dealing out alot of damage against captial ships.[/B]
There is also the clear testimony of Anakins Proton torpedo ...very very very low yield... These weapons are used to take out --captial ships...
Obviously, the X wings have a higher yields as well as the B wings but how much stronger? 100,000 times...no... maybe 10 to 20 times stronger.
Anakins fighter is the common thread.
Star Wars is inferior to Trek. And it always has been. Resistance truely is futile.
I guess you can handle that reality. But when ever you think about...Just remember that a Naboo fighter was taken down by a tank sporting a couple of sticks of TNT...
Now how's that for a cool feeling?
-
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310192]SCOTT!!! Scotty!!! sweety pie...look over here for a moment.
I'm not trusting your calcuations. I can't confirm it and you didn't put down your math to prove it.
I'm gonna count for you in numbers we both can handle. You lied not once, twice, twee times....a lady....As granny says..."I ain't stud'n about none of that."
I'm sticking to what I can prove. You made the rules so stick to 'em. Use canon.[/QUOTE]
You haven't proven a thing besides the fact that you can only count as high as Three and are incapable of divining fact from your warped imagination.
I admit to be wrong once, and it was due to not seeing the movie in some weeks before I stated my recollection and then going based off a transcript and not footage. However in the case where I was wriong you had deliberately lied.
At the Threed Hangar it wasn't the second ship shot down, in fact the first ship was not even fired upon. The fighters left within hair's breadth of each other and the Federation Tank did fire on the craft, however it was the second or third shot fired by the Tank that hit one Naboo Fighter directly in the engine. The shots took place in less than second, not nearly enough time to turn on Shields, especially in Star Trek
As for my numbers on the hole drilling
[LIST][*]5 meter wide cylinder 2 kilometers deep[*]Each Cubic Meter of Granite is 2750 kilograms[*]The energy required to heat 1 kilogram of Granit 1 degree celsius is 294 joules[*]The melting temperature of granite is ~1215 celsius depending on the mix[*]I assumed a plantary temperature of 20 celsius and from footage know they only melted the hole, not vaporized.[*]With a modicum of physics understanding I am sure you can work this out[*]By the way the 10 seconds was provided by you.[/LIST]
For the Asteroids
[LIST][*]I assumed a 40 meter diameter sphere as we see much bigger than this vaporized I figured this is a good mumber. Since we see bigger destroyed my assumption here does not violate canon[*]Granite has the same information above[*]I assumed a temperature of ~-200 celsius which is standard Space temperature at Earth orbit around the sun. Since the Asteroid belt was farther away from the Hoth star this does not violate canon[/LIST]
-
[QUOTE]“ No really, I don't. We know they have a higher, established canon maximum firepower behind me. I don't have to prove what's already canon. We have a very good reason why maximum firepower was (obviously) not used in the hanger, and how it could have been implemented. Occam's razor, and it's not contradicted by known evidence. ”
Excuse #1: Using inferrior canon to justifiy a film canon after a direct contradication is shown
We have? I must have missed something critical like proof[/quote]
Here is the thing, my dear small minded Saquist, Lower canon is correct unless DIRECTLY disputed by the Movies. In the case in the hangar, it is possible that Artoo was telling Anakin that he had turned down the blaster settings but he didn't have full control that that Anakin would have to find the trigger. Now if if Anakin had stated "Turn on the Blasters full power and I'll get these guys!" tehn perhaps you would have an argument.
[QUOTE]“ We know Artoo is fully capable of handling all operations of a starfighter. He flew an X-Wing and fired the weapons to aid Luke in the incident with Jorus C'Baoth ”
Excuse #2 Why not even if it did happen theres nothing to say it didn't. Let's rationalize instead of offer a counter canon example.
Does not extablish the action in question.[/QUOTE]
Stupid argument on your part Saquist my little friend, There wasn't even a point, becuase you can't argue against canon.
[QUOTE]“ You've demonstrated a consistent lack of understanding of LFL canon policy throughout this debate. Lower canon stands unless contradicted by higher canon. Movies trump all, Novels of the movies trump EU novels, sourcebooks for the movies trump EU sourcebooks. if it has 'episode x' attached, it overrides other same-level sources ”
Stalling: #1
Excellent: We've now established that there is a visual record that overrides any non canon revelations.[/QUOTE]
Again, an inane argument. You fail to realize that even with a visual record there is much we do not know that is behind the scenes. Can you read Aurabesh Basic (Star Wars English)? No. Have you seen anyone use a bathroom? No. We know both exist becuase we have seen the first and know that humans definately require the second.
[QUOTE]“ The royal yacht's shields were down, and the Trade Federation ships were accurately bracketing the ship, and PICKING DROIDS OFF ITS SKIN, demonstrating astounding fire control. you know they wanted to capture Padme alive, right? ”
Stalling #2
State the Obvious: Nothing to do with the conversation just throw it in there.
We know they never hit the ship. That is the only thing we truely know.
I assure you I'm not ignoring anything. But I'm not rationalizing and excusing away either like you are.
You're failing to acknoledge that the Artoo units were obliterated. Is this or is this not true...stop making excuses.[/QUOTE]
Not som much obliterated, there were still chucks of them left and I imagine if you gathered them all up you'd get a single working Artoo unit out of it. Also we do know they wanted the Queen alive and can surmise through deductive reasoning the Laser Blasts were to keep the cruiser coralled. Now it only makes sense that the Trade Fed ships were also picking off droids. It's not a hard leap.
[QUOTE]
“ Are you watching the same movies? A blaster bolt hit the panel that Artoo was plugged into, sending a power feedback up through his probe. ”
Excuse #3 ???
You're making more excues. The blaster bolt hit the extension he inserted not the panel. And it is still factual that he was damaged. More excuses... I'm counting from here on out....If you're going to split the hair I might as well keep track untill you finally lie.[/QUOTE]
He was not damaged, at all, he was mere Ionized/shorted out temporarily. You can see claerly his hull is intact and he has the faintest of scorch marks.
[QUOTE]“ Artoo was damaged, through shields, by Tie Fighter lasers, via the same splintering affect that we see throughout Episode IV when dealing with blaster/shield interactions. Luke's shields were not down, a portion of the bolt got through the shielding and hit Artoo. ObiWan's interceptor absorbed multiple 2-kiloton hits before its shields were depleted enough to take armor damage through them. At that point, Fett fired a missile to finish him off. ”
Excuse #4
Now you know I wasn't gonna except your numbers. Why bother?
Here's what I don't know. If the shields were up or down. Doesn't really matter the damage was the same. Star Wars has several marked episodes of shields being up and shots passing cleanly through them to damage a critical system. The comparison I made doesn't make excuses like you do it just acknowledges the damage was debilitating.[/QUOTE]
See, the problem is that what you say you're going to accept and what you are going to accept are two different things. You're just pissy becuase we keep exposing every lie you state.
[QUOTE]Excuse # 5 And its a fat one. No proof that it was a light Turbo laser either.
“ Because a Trade Fed control ship (this was before most Lucrehulks were fully converted, later battleships had hundreds of gun mounts) were firing their quadlasers and destroying starfighters, with no reason to assume that was their maximum firepower, or that any larger guns, if present (We know later battleships had medium and heavy turbolasers, but the control ship in Episode I appeared to only have the light quad batteries) were even used. ”
I'm not going by what you think is canon. You're obviously biased. And you're making excuses instead of relying on canon to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]
Oh so your excuses and lies and ignorance of Canon is Canon somehow. We know they are Light Quad Batteries becuase EU tells us so and the movie NEVER disputes it.
[QUOTE]Stalling # 3
“ The Galaxy's shields, which were dropped in one shot by a 400 gigawatt weapon (STtNG:Survivors. right. ”
I don't know about that. But what ever gets you through the day.[/QUOTE]
Actually it is not a stall but verifiable truth. It is interesting how you nitpick over visuals you do not understand, but simply wave away a clear cut weakness in your side.
[QUOTE]“ must be quite the explosion to accelerate nanoprobes past the speed of light. Either way, that's just to scatter little nanoprobes over 5 lightyears. by 'affect' Tuvok obviously means 'distribute probes across'. This, like the Praxis event, is just a superluminal shockwave that seems to have little effect on realspace objects. (Quo'nos was lightyears from the Praxis event, and lost its ozone layer) in Voyager: The Omega Directive Voyager was tossed around by a superluminal explosion originating from a moon over a light year away.. yet the explosion did not damage the moon, nor the surface structures on it! I think something with the subspace field generated by warp drives makes vessels more vulnerable to this sort of effect. ”
Lie: #1 No one said anything about past the speed of light.
Incorrect: No star system is 5 ly across. Earth's system is a mere 100 au across to the Oort cloud boundary. That's 9 billions miles. Fa,r Far, FAR, FAR shy, FAR FAR FAR FAR shy of 1 light year, 5.8 trillion miles let alone 5 times that.
So yes...solar system wide explosion as they didn't want to harm entire solar systems.[/QUOTE]
Not a Lie per say, a scattering across 5 light years in a time manner requires FTL, so it was assumed.
Second the weapon was not discounted becuase it could damage a star system, but that it was a Strategic weapon and Janeway thought it would be safer to only give the Borg a Tactical weapon
[QUOTE]“ We can conclude that you're full of shit, for reasons above. The high firepower numbers are established by canon, and not disproved by your pitiful attempts that ignore every single film example that disagrees with your lowball suggestions. ”
My, my, we must have hit pretty close to the mark to get you all riled up lack that, huh. All this canon talk getting to you? Losing you civilized sensiibilities, are we?
I know what it is...you must be getting tired of interpreting cannon into lame excuses as you've done over and over again. Each time now you state difinititively that the calculations and the books are right....However I did just prove with superior canon that they are not.[/QUOTE]
No, the problem is that we are dealing with a thundering moron who has repeatedly tried to manipulate Canon. By using his sheer stupidity and selective scenes that match the otucoime he wants, Saquist has tried desperately to prove Canon wrong. In the end he has done nothing but show how logic can be twisted until it is no longer logic.
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Perhaps if you put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la' louder you'll be able to pretend that you're right.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
You're laughable. It's 100 AU's for the Oort cloud boundary. You're so...so laughaable...I'm sorry. The solar system is not a light year wide...where do you get this crap from?
I'm looking at a book right now...It says 100 AU...Not a light year.[/quote]
And you're just plain wrong.
Perhaps you're so addled you're thinking of the [URL="http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/comets/Kuiper_belt.html"]Kuiper Belt[/URL] instead. The [URL="http://www.windows.ucar.edu/cgi-bin/tour_def/comets/Oort_cloud.html"]Oort[/URL] [URL="http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/kboc.html"]Cloud[/URL] is much, much bigger, as even the most basic research (Which you seem incapable of doing) will show.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Let's review once more shalls we?[/quote]
Oh, please.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys ground. Effect: sub kiloton: 20 lbs of TNT may...be 40 lbs[/quote]
Where did you get those numbers? No, please, don't bend over again. Many of those ground strikes were from the tank's prow-mounted launchers, which were firing anti-personnel warheads. I saw some main cannon strikes in my review of Episode I, and they kicked up dirt in much the same way as an AP round fired from an M1 Abrams tank, which amounts to about 22 megajoules of energy. There's no reason to believe they were firing at full power either, since they were shooting at stupid gungans, and would prefer fire rate to armor-pulverizing power.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Trade Federation Tank destroys Naboo fighter Effect Fighter destroyed by same firepower used on the ground. [/quote]
Wow, a tank can shoot down a light interceptor that hasn't had time to raise its shields. amazing. It didn't blow the fighter apart, either. Just throwing that out there. What proof do you have that it was using the same firepower setting?
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Artoo damaged by Hand Blaster Effect: sub-kilo watt..(very)[/quote]
Artoo was never hit by a hand-fired blaster in any of the 6 movies. What movies do you have? Turkish Star Wars doesn't count. Shame on you.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Artoo damaged by Tie Fighter laser bolt. Effect moderate damage[/quote]
bolt splintered by starfighter shields. Yes.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Ar-For damaged by grazed laser bolt: Effect: Damage the same[/quote]
Similar weapons, similar damage through shields. huh. Let's hear it for consistency.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Trade Federation Turbo laser obliterate several astromech Droids.[/quote]
Blew them to pieces. And it wasn't turbolaser, as really only the quad laser batteries would have had that fine of targeting and fire rate to bracket a small, fast target like the royal yacht and shoot droids off its wing.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Effect: expansive but in the low end of the kiloton ranege if kilo ton[/quote]
Probably sub-kiloton. They didn't want to kill the queen, just prevent her ship from escaping.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Observe: Trade Federation battleship destroy Naboo Fighter Effect: near Kiloton effect[/quote]
1-2 kiloton shots can do surface damage to shielded starfighters after a few hits (Episode II, IV) and cause a significant explosion and destruction of the craft when these shields are penetrated or not present (Episodes I,III,IV,IV)
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
There is also the clear testimony of Anakins Proton torpedo ...very very very low yield... These weapons are used to take out --captial ships...
Obviously, the X wings have a higher yields as well as the B wings but how much stronger? 100,000 times...no... maybe 10 to 20 times stronger.[/quote]
fighter launched Proton Torpedoes have a stated variable yield, likely set when they are loaded. These range from 1 kiloton to 190 megatons (This is the torpedo that Jango Fett fired at Obi-Wan) for fighter-launched weapons. So, you aren't too far off. 200 times stronger.
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Anakins fighter is the common thread.[/quote]
is it now? It was only involved in a few of your 'examples' Is that all you've got?
[QUOTE=Saquist;1310760]
Star Wars is inferior to Trek. And it always has been. Resistance truely is futile.[/quote]
Prove it with numbers and calculations.
[b]Manufacturing Capacity (Already conceded): Star Wars[/b]
And boy do they have the numbers advantage. bare minimum 25000 Imperial I and II Star Destroyers, numerous larger and smaller ships, including those Venators with 16 200-gigaton HTLs) and the ability to construct a 900-mile wide battlestation in a few years and in high secrecy.
[b]starship propulsion (Already conceded): Star Wars[/b]
The ability to cross the galaxy in hours gives a huge tactical advantage to SW forces. They can dictate when and where the fight is, while ST would have to keep heavy garrisons to protect strategic resources which could be attacked at any time without warning.
[b]armor technology:[/b]
Aside from Voyager, is armor even used in Trek? Durasteel armor common in SW, which contains neutronium alloy. Very dense, and very conductive to dissipate damaging energy. Star's End prison was composed of a single molecularly bonded piece of armor and was considered indestructable.. it was even launched nearly into orbit when Han Solo detonated its subterranean main reactor. The facility was recovered and put back into use.
[b]weapons targeting[/b]
Astounding accuracy demonstrated in Episode I. Stated accurate range against static target for the Venator's heavy turbolasers at 10 light-minutes. this is more than 1 AU. Proton Torpedoes have been shown making turns of up to 7200g's and deliver up to 190 gigatons of payload.
Trek vessels are often seen missing non-maneuvering targets with both phasers and torpedoes at point blank range. Photon torpedoes not seen to make tight turns past 100 g, and have a range of 15km to 4.5 million km (15 light-seconds), though they have only been seen to hit evading targets at close range. Phaser maximum effective range is 300,000km, or 1 light-second.
[b]weapons output[/b]
Maximum firepower demonstrated in episodes II, III, IV, VI
Stated canon figures of 1-2 kilotons for fighter guns, 200+ gigatons for the heavy warship guns with a refire rate of 2 seconds. Fighter launched warheads up to 190 gigatons are seen, and proton torpedoes create a focused, cone-shaped blast that adds to its armor-penetrating capability. Superweapons able to violently destroy a planet, or cause chain-reaction destruction of stars.
Starship Phaser firepower demonstrated around 1-10 Terawatts/second, and work through a chain reaction effect that renders them significantly less effective against dense matter, and their power drops off with range. Photon Torpedoes, according to the Tech Manual, contain 1.5 kg of antimatter. This produces an absolute maximum of a 65 megaton blast. Effective output on target is probably under 20 megatons due to the nature of spherical blasts and inefficiency in the matter/energy conversion process. Quantum torpedoes have roughly double this output, but have only been seen in use at point blank range. None of Trek's torpedoes have shown great maneuverability or a tight turn radius.
[b]starship shields[/b]
Capital Ship shields: sources: Episode III, V, VI
Shields on the heaviest ships were able to withstand tens of minutes to hours of bombardment from 200+ gigaton weapons in Episode III and VI. Hours to days of rock impacts in a ludicrously dense asteroid field with minor damage (And one unlucky exception) in EpV. Trek shields seem quite adept at coping with stellar and EM radiation, but a 400 gigawatt particle beam crushes the shields of a Galaxy class ship, among the heaviest of Starfleet vessels, and solids/ramming ships seem mostly unimpeded by their frequency-based energy shields. Galaxy-class shields are dropped by roughly 10 proton torpedo hits which could not possibly have more than 65 megatons of power each. Frequency based shields also easily bypassed by weapons using an inverted phase of that frequency.
Fighter shields: sources: Episode II, IV
especially evident in Episode II, Obi-Wan's interceptor absorbs rapid hits from a 2 kiloton cannon before sustaining damage. Similar performance for Luke's X-wing fired on by Darth Vader.
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[QUOTE=Sian;1311029]Perhaps if you put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la' louder you'll be able to pretend that you're right.[/QUOTE]
Yep...
[QUOTE]And you're just plain wrong.
Perhaps you're so addled you're thinking of the [URL="http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/comets/Kuiper_belt.html"]Kuiper Belt[/URL] instead. The [URL="http://www.windows.ucar.edu/cgi-bin/tour_def/comets/Oort_cloud.html"]Oort[/URL] [URL="http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplanets/nineplanets/kboc.html"]Cloud[/URL] is much, much bigger, as even the most basic research (Which you seem incapable of doing) will show.[/QUOTE]
Yep, You were right there were alot more zero's there than I accounted for. My sincere and humble appologies.
Oh, please.
[QUOTE]Where did you get those numbers? No, please, don't bend over again. Many of those ground strikes were from the tank's prow-mounted launchers, which were firing anti-personnel warheads. I saw some main cannon strikes in my review of Episode I, and they kicked up dirt in much the same way as an AP round fired from an M1 Abrams tank, which amounts to about 22 megajoules of energy. There's no reason to believe they were firing at full power either, since they were shooting at stupid gungans, and would prefer fire rate to armor-pulverizing power.[/QUOTE]
You're lacking in Evidence.
They were in War Time there is every reason to believe they were firing in full power mode.
[QUOTE]Wow, a tank can shoot down a light interceptor that hasn't had time to raise its shields. amazing. It didn't blow the fighter apart, either. Just throwing that out there. What proof do you have that it was using the same firepower setting?[/QUOTE]
[B]Lie # 3 [/B] I knew you'd go there, Sian. You couldn't resist the obvious rationalization. Let me throw down some more canon for you though. Anakins shields raised immediately. Prove that he had the experience to do that and that he was more competent than a trained pilot and I'll believe you.
More rationalizing...
[QUOTE]bolt splintered by starfighter shields. Yes.[/QUOTE]
I saw a direct hit....I also didn't see the characteristic flash or redirected energy when a laser bolt hits the shields.
So unless you're able to provided a picture of what you're saying this is more rationalizing...shucks just pull the book for crying out loud.
[QUOTE]Blew them to pieces. And it wasn't turbolaser, as really only the quad laser batteries would have had that fine of targeting and fire rate to bracket a small, fast target like the royal yacht and shoot droids off its wing.[/QUOTE]
Well sure under rationalization I could pluck figures like that out of my rear travel compartment but I don't. A mistake is a mistake but you really have no proof of what you're saying. This is also defined as Un canon.
[QUOTE]Probably sub-kiloton. They didn't want to kill the queen, just prevent her ship from escaping.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree but they never hit her ship once and the shields failed. But they start plucking droids off the hull? What was the pilot doing? Just holding still for a head shot? It's in consistant. No where else does Star Wars show such precision with a projectile weapon.
[QUOTE]1-2 kiloton shots can do surface damage to shielded starfighters after a few hits (Episode II, IV) and cause a significant explosion and destruction of the craft when these shields are penetrated or not present (Episodes I,III,IV,IV)[/QUOTE]
And apparently less with full shields...I site the Naboo fighter and the jedi Fighter.
[QUOTE]fighter launched Proton Torpedoes have a stated variable yield, likely set when they are loaded. These range from 1 kiloton to 190 megatons (This is the torpedo that Jango Fett fired at Obi-Wan) for fighter-launched weapons. So, you aren't too far off. 200 times stronger.[/QUOTE]
Inconsistant TWSCOTT refered this a concussion missle.
These are more un canon figures. Lets see how many times you post "figures" with out proof...as you say...in bend over fashion. You're racking up a high number as it is. Thus far its been 5 counts of no evidence and one refrence to a movie which is easily removable.
[QUOTE]is it now? It was only involved in a few of your 'examples' Is that all you've got? [/QUOTE]
It shows consistence. And apparently It's hard to refute...still no direct evidence of what you say.
[QUOTE]Prove it with numbers and calculations.[/QUOTE]
Star Wars is beyond numbers and calculations or below it. If numbers and calculations were how they came to these figures I have no problem considering them. But this is fantasy.
[QUOTE][b]Manufacturing Capacity (Already conceded): Star Wars[/b]
And boy do they have the numbers advantage. bare minimum 25000 Imperial I and II Star Destroyers, numerous larger and smaller ships, including those Venators with 16 200-gigaton HTLs) and the ability to construct a 900-mile wide battlestation in a few years and in high secrecy.[/QUOTE]
You're overstating.... in how many years?
Proof...Stick to the evidence.
[QUOTE][b]starship propulsion (Already conceded): Star Wars[/b]
The ability to cross the galaxy in hours gives a huge tactical advantage to SW forces. They can dictate when and where the fight is, while ST would have to keep heavy garrisons to protect strategic resources which could be attacked at any time without warning.[/QUOTE]
uh huh.
[QUOTE][b]armor technology:[/b]
Aside from Voyager, is armor even used in Trek? Durasteel armor common in SW, which contains neutronium alloy. Very dense, and very conductive to dissipate damaging energy. Star's End prison was composed of a single molecularly bonded piece of armor and was considered indestructable.. it was even launched nearly into orbit when Han Solo detonated its subterranean main reactor. The facility was recovered and put back into use.[/QUOTE]
You've not established the true properties of this Neutronium and that a Star Fighter was taken down but a very low yield weapon pentrating armor and shields is a direct contradiction to Armor.
[B]Star Wars has failed this portion[/B]
[QUOTE][b]weapons targeting[/b]
Astounding accuracy demonstrated in Episode I. Stated accurate range against static target for the Venator's heavy turbolasers at 10 light-minutes. this is more than 1 AU. Proton Torpedoes have been shown making turns of up to 7200g's and deliver up to 190 gigatons of payload.
Trek vessels are often seen missing non-maneuvering targets with both phasers and torpedoes at point blank range. Photon torpedoes not seen to make tight turns past 100 g, and have a range of 15km to 4.5 million km (15 light-seconds), though they have only been seen to hit evading targets at close range. Phaser maximum effective range is 300,000km, or 1 light-second.[/QUOTE]
One movie doesn't establish a trend, Sian, there are far more misses than strikes.
Star War's easily fails this portion.
[QUOTE][b]weapons output[/b]
Maximum firepower demonstrated in episodes II, III, IV, VI
Stated canon figures of 1-2 kilotons for fighter guns, 200+ gigatons for the heavy warship guns with a refire rate of 2 seconds. Fighter launched warheads up to 190 gigatons are seen, and proton torpedoes create a focused, cone-shaped blast that adds to its armor-penetrating capability. Superweapons able to violently destroy a planet, or cause chain-reaction destruction of stars.
Starship Phaser firepower demonstrated around 1-10 Terawatts/second, and work through a chain reaction effect that renders them significantly less effective against dense matter, and their power drops off with range. Photon Torpedoes, according to the Tech Manual, contain 1.5 kg of antimatter. This produces an absolute maximum of a 65 megaton blast. Effective output on target is probably under 20 megatons due to the nature of spherical blasts and inefficiency in the matter/energy conversion process. Quantum torpedoes have roughly double this output, but have only been seen in use at point blank range. None of Trek's torpedoes have shown great maneuverability or a tight turn radius.[/QUOTE]
Conflicts...Conical detonations, Turbolaser firepower, 190 megatons..
These events are not established in the Star Wars superior canon.
The TNG tech manuel is considered Uncanon.
The DS9 tech manuel is considered Un canon.
[b]starship shields[/b]
[QUOTE]Capital Ship shields: sources: Episode III, V, VI
Shields on the heaviest ships were able to withstand tens of minutes to hours of bombardment from 200+ gigaton weapons in Episode III and VI. Hours to days of rock impacts in a ludicrously dense asteroid field with minor damage (And one unlucky exception) in EpV. Trek shields seem quite adept at coping with stellar and EM radiation, but a 400 gigawatt particle beam crushes the shields of a Galaxy class ship, among the heaviest of Starfleet vessels, and solids/ramming ships seem mostly unimpeded by their frequency-based energy shields. Galaxy-class shields are dropped by roughly 10 proton torpedo hits which could not possibly have more than 65 megatons of power each. Frequency based shields also easily bypassed by weapons using an inverted phase of that frequency.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
You first sentence leans on a figure in contention.
Star Wars fails to prove 200 megatons, hence fails to prove shield effectiveness against 200 mega tons.
[QUOTE]Fighter shields: sources: Episode II, IV
especially evident in Episode II, Obi-Wan's interceptor absorbs rapid hits from a 2 kiloton cannon before sustaining damage. Similar performance for Luke's X-wing fired on by Darth Vader.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Your first sentence leans on a figure in contention.
The slave 1 never displays 2 kiloton firepower. This is in contention.
Star Wars fails this portion as a result as well.
Summary: You're basing your figures on the assumption that you're right rather than showing a collective harmorny of events that consistently show that ...
A. Star Destroyers uses 200 megaton power
B. Shields prevent a portion damage rather than complete damage.
C. kiloton range weapons on fighters consistently show any type of mass destrction ability.
You need a strict analysis not a summary of what you believe to be true.
-
[QUOTE=TW Scott;1310940]Here is the thing, my dear small minded Saquist, Lower canon is correct unless DIRECTLY disputed by the Movies. In the case in the hangar, it is possible that Artoo was telling Anakin that he had turned down the blaster settings but he didn't have full control that that Anakin would have to find the trigger. Now if if Anakin had stated "Turn on the Blasters full power and I'll get these guys!" tehn perhaps you would have an argument.[/QUOTE]
you know...I think I said that already. And I believe it does directly dispute you simply because you have no canon evidence at all to make your assumption. That is a direct dispute between canon and uncanon.
[B]check.[/B]
[QUOTE]Stupid argument on your part Saquist my little friend, There wasn't even a point, becuase you can't argue against canon.[/QUOTE]
Elementary my dear dumby. So if you don't have evidence from any part of canon that says his fighter was opperating at reduced power then you can not offer the speculation as evidence.
[B]Check.[/B]
[QUOTE]Again, an inane argument. You fail to realize that even with a visual record there is much we do not know that is behind the scenes. Can you read Aurabesh Basic (Star Wars English)? No. Have you seen anyone use a bathroom? No. We know both exist becuase we have seen the first and know that humans definately require the second.[/QUOTE]
And yet we can only go by what's canon and not speculation. If you continue along this course I will begin to speclate as you have but in favor of Trek and that's easy to do.
Stick with the Facts and leave the speculation pool alone.
[QUOTE]Not som much obliterated, there were still chucks of them left and I imagine if you gathered them all up you'd get a single working Artoo unit out of it. Also we do know they wanted the Queen alive and can surmise through deductive reasoning the Laser Blasts were to keep the cruiser coralled. Now it only makes sense that the Trade Fed ships were also picking off droids. It's not a hard leap.[/QUOTE]
[B]Speculation not Canonon Evidence.[/B]
[QUOTE]He was not damaged, at all, he was mere Ionized/shorted out temporarily. You can see claerly his hull is intact and he has the faintest of scorch marks[/QUOTE].
[B]Lie #4[/B]
Damage constitutes in opperable. No one but you mentioned armor damage.
[QUOTE]See, the problem is that what you say you're going to accept and what you are going to accept are two different things. You're just pissy becuase we keep exposing every lie you state[/QUOTE].
[B]Desperation:[/B]
With out Evidence The Canon I've stated holds prescedent.
[QUOTE]Oh so your excuses and lies and ignorance of Canon is Canon somehow. We know they are Light Quad Batteries becuase EU tells us so and the movie NEVER disputes it. [/QUOTE]
Do you dispute that Artoo was damaged by a blaster?
Do you dispute that a Tank destroyed a vessel you assert as extra ordinarily powerful than terristrial fire power?
Do you dispute that this is the very fact that you lied about?
Do you dispute that the Jedi Star Figther was struck by five shots and did not repel any other volleys.
Do you dispute that Slave 1 targeting was less than accurate?
[QUOTE]Not a Lie per say, a scattering across 5 light years in a time manner requires FTL, so it was assumed. [/QUOTE]
[B]Nothing's assumed unless you're involved TWScott. Assumptions are as bad as speculation. It was a blatant lie to interpret events how he saw fit.[/B]
[QUOTE]Second the weapon was not discounted becuase it could damage a star system, but that it was a Strategic weapon and Janeway thought it would be safer to only give the Borg a Tactical weapon[/QUOTE]
[I]You're wrong.
And canon once again is my sword.[/I]
[B][I]SEVEN OF NINE: (re: graphic) A multikinetic neutronic mine. Five million
isoton yield.
TUVOK: (reacts) An explosion that size could affect an entire star
system.
SEVEN OF NINE: Correct. The shock wave will dispurse the nanoprobes over
a radius of five light years.
JANEWAY: That's somewhat larger than I had in mind. You're proposing a
weapon of mass destruction...
SEVEN OF NINE: We are.
JANEWAY: Well, I'm not. You'd be endangering innocent worlds.[/I][/B]
Not only is it saying that it has far more fire power than the Death Star...
(Oh yes I did) But Janway proves that worlds were endanger. You under estimate Trek...and That will be your complete down fall.
[QUOTE]No, the problem is that we are dealing with a thundering moron who has repeatedly tried to manipulate Canon. By using his sheer stupidity and selective scenes that match the otucoime he wants, Saquist has tried desperately to prove Canon wrong. In the end he has done nothing but show how logic can be twisted until it is no longer logic.[/QUOTE]
Well this is no surprise TWScott...when negoitationS fail you assualt the delegates. I've been as accomodating as I possibly can. I've read this thread. The Trek Fanboys previously here wouldn't budge and inch. You treat me as your inferrior, you assail me with "morons", and stupids everytime your fustration peaks. Apparently I'm of such a low intellect that I can not begine to comprehend your logic. The attacks have been very consistent...following a pattern. Yet if I'm the one with the failing intellect why are you still here...preaching...to a failing intelect.
Gentleman...there are no inferrior intellects. Only inferrior choices.
