AGAIN: Tao Te Ching
 

I will make this as simple as I can. Will someone please explain Taoism to me in laymans terms. Or is that possible? I don't consider myself a shallow person, but yet I can't comprehend the Tao Te Ching. Alot of unspoken words are a play.

I can try...
 

Tao Te Ching (or: Daode Jing) means in the common translation: "The Book of the Way and the Power/Virtue".

When you read it, don't try to understand it! My suggestion is that you just read it... absorb it, and lets its poetry reveal its own beauty.

The Book can and have been interpreted in many ways - it's not something that has one final and absolute meaning.

Regarding Taoism... I'd describe it as seeking the art of living, and living with balance and harmony. Do note that the Tao Te Ching does not contain any commandments or orders, like the Christian Bible or Moslem Qu'ran does, but it does contain a lot of recommandations and anecdotes, i guess you can call them that.

I have personally had a very much enlightenment and enjoyment from reading various versions of TTC. I think it is awsomely simple and beautiful in its composition and messages.

Remember, dont read this is a scientific textbook. Absorb it... gently!

Djsupreme23 is right. the Tao te ching is more about an attitude to life, going with the flow, umm, not thinking too much and not not thinking too much. Its hard to explain, read some comentaries on it, but always come back to the original text, and try some different translations, some are somehow better than others even though it can be hard to say how.

It can be difficult for the western mind to comprehend Taoism. We need everything to be defined precisely, and find it hard to read between the lines. The first line of the Tao te ching is something like: The Tao that can be told is not the true tao. This means that although we may describe its effects, the real tao remains undefinable. In a way, it is sort of like a godly spirit in everything, but it is not separate, it is sort of coded into the very fabric of reality. It is impartial, and both soft and powerful, like water. The more we act in accord with it, using its presence in us as a guide, the more we flourish. Thats about the best I can do right now...hope it helps.

Tao and the Ocean
 

Once upon a time, a young fish asked an old fish: "Everyone talks about this thing they call 'ocean.' What the heck is it?"

The older and wiser fish answered: "The ocean is this thing that surrounds you on all sides."

The younger fish didn't understand: "There's nothing around me! Why can I not see this 'ocean?'"

"Of course you cannot," the old fish was patient. "The ocean is both inside and outside of you. You were born in the ocean and chances are you will die in it. The ocean flows around you, just as your own skin does."

Confucius once said, "Fish forget they live in water; people forget they live in the Tao." We all live in the ocean of Tao. It flows over us; it is within us and all around us. It enfolds us like our own skin, and yet we cannot perceive it... indeed, most of us have no idea what it is. Let us think of Tao as the universal flow of reality. This will take us another step toward true understanding of Tao.

[i]Source: [URL=http://www.greattao.org/english/2002-05.htm]Tao Stories[/URL][/i]

What is Daoism?
 

Daoism is strongly reductionist. The very first words of the Dao de Jing warn that words cannot convey the very truth the book is attempting to convey. So I can say that the central theme of Daoism is that "all things are one", but even that is inadequate since the concept of "all things" itself detracts from the expression of the theme. Much of Daoist thought is like this. In my study of it I found myself moving in a steadily decreasing spiral until the only realistic expression I could make about Daoism was a mindful silence.

I've been trying to understand Daoism for some time now and I find it quite difficult. The problem being the various different approaches to translating the Daode Jing due to the ambiguity of the Chinese languages, some might say the essence of the Dao is reflected in the Chinese language, heavily Subtractive as opposed to Additive as most western philosphies might seem. Mainly my confusion probably lies within this phraze ''trying to understand Daoism''.

On translations of the Ta Te Ching(Daode Jing) I think I am soon going to totaly dismiss the translation Aleister Crowley has provided mainly due to his questionable morality and the Seemingly perverted use of the Concept of 'Do what thou willt, and that shall be the whole of the law'. He seems to mean 'Do whatever you want' :D Drugs, women, men, anything.
But I like his poetic approach as opposed to the dry, scholarly (and often Westernly biased(Christianity, etc.)) that most translations are, does anyone know of a good translation that is not too scholarly and also not too perverted?

I've found that reading Crowley, and then forgetting most of it, is the best way to go ;)

I read it first with an open/blank mind, where I didn't try to analyze it too much or apply the messages. The second time I went went through it trying to apply the messages to what I was seeing around my life. I found parts of it to be applicable to politics, business ethics, and general living.

One section I thought dealt with the US presidential elections almost perfectly, 66:
"How does the sea become the king of all streams?/ Because it lies lower than they!/ Hence it is the king of all streams./ Therefore, the Sage reigns over the pople by humbling himself in speech;/ And leads the people by putting himself behind./ Thus it is that when a Sage stand above the poeple, they do not feel the heaviness of his weight;/ And when he stands in front of the people, they do not feel hurt./ Therefore all the world is glad to push him forward without getting tired of him./ Just becase he strives with nobody,/ Nobody can ever strive with him.

from John C. H. Wu's trans.

There's a difference between a sage and an idiot.

Except that I think that "applying" the Tao te ching to things isnt quite right.

Yea I know that, but I'm incappable of [i]learning[/i] it.

Dont focus on "learning". Just read it... grab a bottle of beer, tea, and a slice of good pizza, kick back and just read it. You get the idea.

The idea
 

The idea is that their is no idea.
Read a book by Ayn Rand

hey
 

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grazzhoppa [/i]
[B]Yea I know that, but I'm incappable of [i]learning[/i] it. [/B][/QUOTE]

That sort of self -defeating, self-immolating attitute is exactly what they are preaching. With that attitude, i would say that you dont need to learn anything that you havent learned already.
Dont think,dont do, be nice to everyone, STAGNATE.

"travel only along used trails"
dont create. Dont do.

I, once upon a time, read the book seriously. Now i read it as a joke, and to enforce exactly what Ayn Rand has said on the topic.
Self-immolation and stagnation.

"I, once upon a time, read the book seriously. Now i read it as a joke"

Whilst that is fair comment on teh Tao te ching,

"and to enforce exactly what Ayn Rand has said on the topic.
Self-immolation and stagnation."

That isnt.
You clearly have decided the way you look at things is different from the way teh tao te ching suggests.

Tao-ism has a light touch. A Taoist person tends to be flexible, faster in the moment, smoother. Jonathon Livingston Seagull moved a single feather sometimes to achieve his desired goal of flying in one passage.

Tao-ism tends to be very clear for me. Tao-ism reminds me of simple judo; it's easy to step aside if a blow is coming and observe rather than to confront the blow right away.

Tao-ism can be very outgoing. The "Te" in Tao Te Ching means virtue, according to The Te of Piglet by Benjamin Hoff. So, combining the above 3 paragraphs, virtuous action should be outgoing and flexible to the moment.

Zen koans don't speak to me, usually, and if in a bad mood, a koan appears snobbish when the Zen master rebukes a student.

[QUOTE=Tuner]Tao-ism reminds me of simple judo; it's easy to step aside if a blow is coming and observe rather than to confront the blow right away.[/QUOTE]

Sidestepping is difficult if someone grabs hold of you; this was the doctrine of Carolus Magnus. He made a lot of people into Christians by threatening to kill them.

The Tao Te Ching is a very small book, and there are several excellent translations. I like the one by Stephan Mitchell. It could not be said better, or explained in terms more suitable for the laymen. If there is a particular passage to be explained, maybe I can help, but the whole thing is a work of philosophical art, and is irreducible. It may require a lifetime of contemplation to understand, or an instant, whatever way is more appropriate to you.

I would sujest read a passage a day.
It's for understanding not conquer.

Yes Spider Goat, the translation from Stephen Mitchell is by far the best one, hands down. IMO.
Beutiful.
Taoism definitely broadened my experience of life.
Those were definitely some memorable times of self discovery.

The Tao is the way. The way things are.
How you live your life. How your neighbor lives his.
How all of us live.
The way of things, the way of the universe.
It's what happens.
It's what's happening.
Right now.
Before you.
Through you.
It is you.
And me.
It is all.
It is one.
It is many.
Its everything.
Its not a thought,
it's an experience.

The Tao Te Ching has come to me as meaning" The way of change".
Tao= The way
Te= Virtue
Ching= Change
From the book The "I Ching", Book of Changes.

I would suggest Learning the Way of Reason.
But thats just my opinion.
Enjoy your life.
Be awesome!

To what exent is Daoism a teleological world view?

To what extent does Daoism presuppose a Supernatural?

For one, spell it correctly for crying out loud!!!!!!!!
Yah ,I know it's dumb.
And for another, what the hell are you talking about????!!!!!
In laymens or your own terms please.
O.K., I'll look up teleoolgical......O.K.
What's it's end goal?
There is no end goal.
It's living now, working with nature, observings its laws, simplicity.
Living the path of least resistance.
Letting go of all resistance within and without.
It describes "you" as the way.
It's the experience of being alive.
It is the Eternal Now.

As for super natural, there is none of that either.
It is totaly this world here.
Nothing super about it.
It's as glorious or simple as you perceive it.Or both.

Daoism is an alternate spelling.

Dao...Da a a o
Dao light comes and me want to go home.

Hmm. Taoism...a way of showing you what is past your own mind, concepts, ideas, illusions, and the reality and manner of being that would emerge from having a mind pure of deceptions.

hmm. Taoism...a way of showing you the beauty of a yesemina

LOL! Why, thank you Hathor. How nice of you. :D

yesemina, how does Taoism show you this?

To you tao is everything that isn't you.

To someone else, you are part of the tao.

It is the complement of being. It is all that cannot be known.

(noting that what we have of our experience is sensory... it's an abstract reflection of the thing... but it cannot be the actual thing)

I think that Taoism in a nutshell is being mindful of the tao.

[i]noting that what we have of our experience is sensory[/i]

those are fighting words in this subforum, brother wes.
perhaps a reminder of one of the basic tenets of e phil would be in order..

[i]Yoga is the art of accepting, understanding, and even appreciating the seven senses, and then transcending them to give us a glimpse of the Beyond.

In our daily life, of course, the seven senses are essential in order to live and function in the world. They are not to be denied or suppressed. But in the process of Pratyahara, they are temporarily put to one side so that we can ‘see’ beyond them.

[URL=http://www.mandalayoga.net/index.php?rub=newsletter_en&p=7senses]pratayahara[/URL] [/i]

it is an experience not easily communicable.

[i]it's an abstract reflection of the thing... but it cannot be the actual thing)[/i]

direct cognition refers to the lack of a mediator. that is, the gross senses do not come b/w you, the knower, and the known. in essense, you are tao.

alas, i merely parrot the sages as i (like you), have only abstractions. ;)
yet i have had a glimpse [:rolleyes:] of what could be so.....i am curious. have you meditated? if so, details?

yese, wanna come over and see my tao?

[QUOTE=Hathor][i]noting that what we have of our experience is sensory[/i]

those are fighting words in this subforum, brother wes.
perhaps a reminder of one of the basic tenets of e phil would be in order..

[i]Yoga is the art of accepting, understanding, and even appreciating the seven senses, and then transcending them to give us a glimpse of the Beyond.

In our daily life, of course, the seven senses are essential in order to live and function in the world. They are not to be denied or suppressed. But in the process of Pratyahara, they are temporarily put to one side so that we can ‘see’ beyond them.

[URL=http://www.mandalayoga.net/index.php?rub=newsletter_en&p=7senses]pratayahara[/URL] [/i]

it is an experience not easily communicable.

[i]it's an abstract reflection of the thing... but it cannot be the actual thing)[/i]

direct cognition refers to the lack of a mediator. that is, the gross senses do not come b/w you, the knower, and the known. in essense, you are tao.

alas, i merely parrot the sages as i (like you), have only abstractions.
yet i have had a glimpse [] of what could be so.....i am curious. have you meditated? if so, details?[/QUOTE]

oh thank you, some of it reminds me of [URL=http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=26421]this subject[/URL], but that's one step added to what you already brought up

staying on topic...I'm really starting to like the whole idea on Daoism, but I feel a bit awkward when the nitty and gritty of what the Dao is begins with a simple idea and everything else begins to sound pretty thought out and then it comes back to the simple idea. Isn't the essential "truth" of things (for lack of a better term) just plain incommunicable? Help me out on this please, I really must change into a better train of logic. :confused:

Essential truth can't be told, but lesser truths can. Its up to you to read between the lines. Daoism uses intuition rather than logic.

I'd say it also uses a great deal of external logic - taking logic to its extreme ends. its very extreme ends. beyond where war and hatered matter, beyond where even you and I matter. my opinion, of course.

As I understand it, Taoism is really all sorts of things to all sorts of people. Which is OK, because it is all-encompassing. And it is nothing at all.

The Tao Te Jing is both a poetic depiction of a philosophy and a guide to proper ruling. As a philosophy it tends towards self-negation and openness toward the "natural" course of things. As a guide to ruling, it attempts to apply these principles to help keep rulers focussed on the people they are responsible for rather than the power they wield.

The gist of many Taoist texts is the attempt to achieve a state of emotional detachment that I do find a bit disturbing. But I personally believe that the essence of this is to help people free themselves from the roller coaster of unexamined emotional responses rather than to deny them the pleasures (and pains) of experiencing life.

The very first lines of the Tao Te Jing state that the Tao cannot be objectively defined. It is a subjective experience. Freeing oneself from desires opens one up to more experiences, ones that can certainly transcend those described by any sage.

I'm not convinced by any emotional detachment argument, more that I think you should follow and direct your emotions, and let them direct you, but dont let them get the upper hand.

Taoism predates the Tao Te Ching by many thousands of years. Lao tzu (assuming he existed) was a Tao practitioner who defined his beliefs beautifully, but it is really not necessary to read and/or understand his work to be a Taoist.

Be warned, though. It can be a difficult and lonely path.

Here is a tremendous resource: [url]http://taoism.net[/url]

Apostrophes

Oh, and emotional detachment should not be confused with apathy. Emotions can and do confuse the individual, clouding judgement and leading to difficulty. A Taoist sage does not allow this to happen, though, through compassion, she does what needs to be done. She will not give food to a hungry man because his suffering causes her to feel upset; she gives food to a hungry man because he is hungry.

Apostrophes

A person of tao is not emotionally detached, they are emotionally connected, culturally induced judgements do not cloud their intuition. Compassion as a principle, as well as principles in general, do not arise from the source, but from mere knowledge. This is the meaning of:
[QUOTE]When the great Tao is forgotten,
goodness and piety appear.[/QUOTE]
The person of tao may feed a man or not, charity can sometimes be the wrong thing to do.

I don't agree that compassion is not of the source. I really don't. If I disagree with you elsewhere I think it's just a question of words. I am sure you and would get along really well in real life!

Apostrophes