I'm a christian, love god with all my heart, and regard Jesus as the ultimate role model. But I also tend to be a realist, and try to figure out why things are the way they are. Most sins make sence if the rational of why they are in fact sins, with exception to a few. One which I was brought to think about more closely recently is premarital sex. What makes it sinful? Is it the possibility that you may accidnetally make a kid and screw that kid's life? If so, then what if you do it responsibly? It's human contact, not unlike hugs or holding hands. Does that make hugging and holding hands a sin too? How about massaging someone? Would that reel the line in too far? Where is the line? And why is the line justified?

And if anyone says it's enjoying the flesh again isn't cutting it, because those are the same people who accuse me of being very "worldly". I can't help it if this world and it's people are beautiful! I mean, damnit, God built the thing! Besides, we enjoy the flesh anyway. Whenever we run for the feel of running, we're enjoying our own bodies. Whenever we work out to better our physical capabilities, or even study for mental ones, we're catering to our flesh-based appetites. I just don't get it... Fellow christians, and anyone else, help me out here.

The correct terminology for pre-marital sex, as described in the bible, is Fornication! Yes it's a sin. Not a sin because it's not good to have sex, because of course it was created for good...to bring life...but it's just not good to "abuse" if you will, the powers of pro-creation. Your opportunity on earth to hold a god-like power.

If we lived in an ideal world, according to God's standards, children would grow up in a loving family with a mother and father. People who understand the gospel, know that God loves his children very much. His grandest creation and His greatest glory, therefore, so that a child may be reared up and taught about what's right and what's wrong, and to live life more happily; He ordained and consecrated marriage. The union of a man a woman.

The union of two flesh, to excersize, in essence and to a degree--the creative power of God, by rearing children into the world.

Hence why it is reproached heavily, because it's not a power to be maltreated. But for Satan, it's a prime target to exploit. Destroy families, destroy happiness.

but it doesn't neccesarily have to destroy families! and it doesn't nessecarily have to result in offspring!

But let's assume that, okay, premarital sex is a sin. Where's the boundary line? insertion? cuddling naked on a bed? making out? the good night kiss? Someone I met today told me that kissing was a sin because it "lead to sex", but so could having coffee with a girl. so could alot of things for that matter...

and I realize I'm looking at this entirely physical so far, and that there are mental ramifications to sex too, but I'm assuming that sex is seen (as unchristian as I'm intentionally sounding right now) as a form of recreation mutually.

No problem bro, you're honestly seeking to do what's right or you wouldn't have asked about it. And you're trying to understand also which is commendable. Gimme a second to read over your questions so I can comment.

WEG, are you looking at this from a logical point of view or religious one?

i mean like the not eating pig began because of the diseases that pigs carried and so when people died the easiest and most efficant way to stop the spread of the diseases was to say that god said they are unclean and to prove that most people who ate them then died

OR

God said this is bad so why would god think that?

In the first case it was probably firstly as a form of control, to identify members of the tribe and as a way of making it more likly that of spring would survive, therefore we can say that god favores the family unit and its not a far streach to say that he frowns opon those who ARNT in a family unit. After 1000's of years that just becomes ritual wether evolution still surports it or not

If your looking at it from the other prespective ask a thologion

as nisus says "If we lived in an ideal world, according to God's standards, children would grow up in a loving family with a mother and father."

so the only problem that God has with premarital sex would appear to be that kids need two parents

so just go nuts with condoms, spemicidal jellys, diapraghms and the like

except that "EVERY sperm is sacred, every sperm is good, if a sperm is wasted god gets quite irate":p

Well, what you said is very true, it doesn't neccesarily have to destroy families! and it doesn't nessecarily have to result in offspring! Because with all sins there are varying degrees of consequences, the destruction of family and happiness is just the worst possible scenario heheheh.

You ever heard of Joseph who was sold into egypt? Well when he was in egypt he found favor in the eyes of a man named Potiphar. Potiphar made him an overseer in his house but one day, Potiphar's wife wanted to mack on Joseph... This is what happened....

And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.

And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.

And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out. Gen 39:10-12

Now i'm sure joseph was tempted. But he knew it was gonna be not only fornication but also adultery being that she was a married woman. So to avoid sinning even in the least degree "he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out" in other words he bailed out running so fast that his clothes were torn and left in her hand.
He's a good example of how we should act. Run from sin. Shake at the first sight of it...

Kissing isn't a sin, it's part of courtship!! The intercourse itself is the act of "fornication". Not kissing, and hugging. If you need guidelines go by these. Just stick to kissing and hugging~! DANGER after that. Red zone! And yea abstinance till marriage is hard. Mocked on everyside by todays world. But stay faithful, prayerful, fast if you need. You can overcome it.

Cor. 6:18-19
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Okay i'll stop preaching now. Be strong!

and weed_eater_guy no hand shandies, one off the wrists, pulling the pony, or strangling the stallion, think of all those potential babies you'll be murdering god wont like it, it sinful behavior.
fornication, lol, what a crock of dog testicals, get a life people, weed eater guy do as you please, you are your own boss, just do it wisely, no god, can harm you for having a bit of sex.
why should you hold back, when all around are having some.
the only wise thing nisus said, was be strong, if your going to keep it till your married then make sure the person you wed is a virgin too.
there an old saying practice makes perfect, would'nt you want the person you fall for to experience, the most powerful love making possible.
and there is a tremendous difference between sex and love making, but if you have no experience love making is less then sex.
you must of heard of woman who fake orgasms, I bet you ten to a pound they were virgins when they got married.

Where is the line? And why is the line justified?

That is where you decide what's right and wrong according to your beliefs. You make your bed, now sleep in it.

Or someone elses:p

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol! :)

Men speaking ...

Women do the same thing, they commit adultry just like men do and sleep around too.

You liked Amelie, didn't you water?

Women do the same thing, they commit adultry just like men do and sleep around too.

Men can't become pregnant, men don't have to have abortions or have children they did not plan, so men have easy talking about sex.

You liked Amelie, didn't you water?

Nope, never even seen that film. Frenchy quips.

wow this got popular quick...

Nice to see some people who were thinking along my train of thought, like geeser. and adultry is not the same thing as premarital sex, adultry involves violating someone's trust in favor of lust. but premarital sex, i just can't see who's getting hurt there, except the sperm. then again, if i were catholic (which I'm not), i'd say it was a sin because the sperm could eventually turn into a kid if it's lucky and thus, masturbation and protected sex is murder, yet murder of a substance not unlike saliva in bodily nature. go figure...

Nice to see some people who were thinking along my train of thought, like geeser. and adultry is not the same thing as premarital sex, adultry involves violating someone's trust in favor of lust. but premarital sex, i just can't see who's getting hurt there ...

Put yourself in the woman's position.
Say that the contraceptives fail and she becomes pregnant. What will she do?
So often, men simply walk away in such a case, leaving the woman alone, to struggle either with the abortion, or an unplanned or even unwanted child.
Is that fair towards te woman?

Sure, one might argue, "Why did she have sex then in the first place?"
But if premarital sex is encouraged, so is the conditionality of love. Encouraging premarital sex is telling women they have to be willing to deal with the undesired consequences themselves. Slowly, women get the message that if women want the love of men, the price for that is premarital sex and the possible undesired consequences.
Women are bearing the whole weight of the consequences of premarital sex. men can get away freely.

Is that fair?

woman have a yes and no choice, their educated enough to know the consequences of their actions, any way most are on the pill or have a coil, and theres the male pill, oh and the morning after pill, apart form condoms, dutch caps. etc..
it does seem like the reponsiblity is all the womans, however I'm sure weed eater guy is sensible and cautious, so I cant see a problem.

What is marriage?
Is it a monopoly by an institution like a church to control breeding? What if there were no church? If you and your mate were all alone, can you marry yourselves?

I'm a christian, love god with all my heart, and regard Jesus as the ultimate role model. But I also tend to be a realist, and try to figure out why things are the way they are. Most sins make sence if the rational of why they are in fact sins, with exception to a few. One which I was brought to think about more closely recently is premarital sex. What makes it sinful? Is it the possibility that you may accidnetally make a kid and screw that kid's life? If so, then what if you do it responsibly? It's human contact, not unlike hugs or holding hands. Does that make hugging and holding hands a sin too? How about massaging someone? Would that reel the line in too far? Where is the line? And why is the line justified? As believers we try not to get caught up in the pleasures of THIS WORLD which lead men often into idolatry. Since SEX is the ultimate physical ectasy, it must be avoided and fled from if it is not justified by God (ie outside marriage). That is fornication, illicit sex, which scripture condemns. True SEX should mean giving your entire being selflessly to someone else, as an expression of the commitment of your entire life to that person. Fornication is never innocent, and whoever fornicates LIES to the other person, which is not an act of LOVE but of hate! Since humans are weak they are drawn by the allure of ectasy and commit this lie, and so, although it causes spiritual death, God will forgive the sinner and bring him back to spiritual life. Every effort should be made to avoid this transgression when dating, if you make a mistake that is human, however if you cannot cease from this impious sin while dating a particular would-be-spouse, you must break off with that person and honour God by ceasing from sin, or at least marry immediately which could also be dangerous.

To separate sex from the act of procreation for which it wasintended is also a distortion and sinful, therefore to use condoms or other prophylactics is wrong, as is the sale of such devices, many of which are abortafactive, and many who do so (if they do so knowing that as such it has been condemned by established spiritual authority, such as certain catholics) offend God greatly and risk Hell through excommunication.

And if anyone says it's enjoying the flesh again isn't cutting it, because those are the same people who accuse me of being very "worldly". I can't help it if this world and it's people are beautiful! I mean, damnit, God built the thing! Besides, we enjoy the flesh anyway. Whenever we run for the feel of running, we're enjoying our own bodies. Whenever we work out to better our physical capabilities, or even study for mental ones, we're catering to our flesh-based appetites. I just don't get it... Fellow christians, and anyone else, help me out here.

God created all pleasures, and in themselves they are all good. However, if you are USING someone else to aquire pleasure for yourself this is wrong, and everyone knows this, for you put them beneath human dignity and treatthem as a mere animal.

God forbids no one from marrying.

To blame God for sin is upside down.

Lawdog, u Rock dawg

So as long as you are giving your life to someone, and not just your penis, it's ok. (and God hates condoms (and fags))

To blame God for sin is upside down.how so, if your devout god fearing bible puncher, you must blame the one who, put sin there, but no you blame adam, cause you dont want to anger your god he may smite you.
what a load of utter dogs testicals you people believe in.

In the days of the OT, sex usually resulted in pregnancy, and casual sex put a great burden on mothers to raise the kids (if they survived childbirth), or led to them killing the babies. Of course this is a problem, but circumstances have changed. I think the bible should be updated to account for the invention of birth control.

Fornication is never innocent, and whoever fornicates LIES to the other person, which is not an act of LOVE but of hate!

That's exactly how I feel Rawdog! Except I get a real kick out of knowing I'm abusing the woman!

Sleeping around boosts evolution (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/evolution/mg18424731.500)

I guess God hates his own creation, or the passage about no premarital sex is the creation of some superstitious Jews. They don't even eat pork or shellfish for God's sake.

The correct terminology for pre-marital sex, as described in the bible, is Fornication! Yes it's a sin. Not a sin because it's not good to have sex, because of course it was created for good...to bring life...but it's just not good to "abuse" if you will, the powers of pro-creation.
Ah, I see that you are young, and have absolutely no experience in what you are talking about. :p

Why do you think god made us horny?

Why do you think god made us horny?

Do you think "god" "made" us?
Do you believe in "god"?

Water,

I imagine you'd be the type to like it. But I might be wrong....

I imagine you'd be the type to like it. But I might be wrong....

You think wrong.

God forbids no one from marrying.

To blame God for sin is upside down.

Does God forbid someone from remarrying though, if the former spouse is still alive?

Pre-marital sex is hate, but marital sex is love to you? If so, interesting division you got there, Lawdog. :)

Also, if separating the act of sex from intending procreation is sin in your view, then why does the Catholic church allow the "calendar" method of birth control?

And, concerning the aborifactive comment, doesn't "science" say that a certain percentage of fertilized eggs fail to attach to the uterine wall, regardless of the use of the "pill"? Was that part of God's wisdom to allow those deaths of what some Christians consider full human beings?

Does God forbid someone from remarrying though, if the former spouse is still alive? Yes Jesus does very expressly forbid that, if fact, it appears that he condemns divorce mostly for the sake of preventing remarriage.

Pre-marital sex is hate, but marital sex is love to you? If so, interesting division you got there, Lawdog. :) Its not just me, but a doctrine all christians are obliged to adhere too.

Also, if separating the act of sex from intending procreation is sin in your view, then why does the Catholic church allow the "calendar" method of birth control? This method is allowed as long as its intended goal is not to prevent new life, not to stop God's action, for example, it might be used by those who wish to have period of abstinence for the sake of increased focus on prayer.

And, concerning the aborifactive comment, doesn't "science" say that a certain percentage of fertilized eggs fail to attach to the uterine wall, regardless of the use of the "pill"? Was that part of God's wisdom to allow those deaths of what some Christians consider full human beings?
Just as in, say still births or miscarriages, one cannot fully understand God's purpose, or know for certain that such a thing is God's purpose. There has always been debate amongtheologians as to when "ensoulment occurs", but it is alway best to err on the side of life.

Yes Jesus does very expressly forbid that, if fact, it appears that he condemns divorce mostly for the sake of preventing remarriage.
Its not just me, but a doctrine all christians are obliged to adhere too.
This method is allowed as long as its intended goal is not to prevent new life, not to stop God's action, for example, it might be used by those who wish to have period of abstinence for the sake of increased focus on prayer.

Just as in, say still births or miscarriages, one cannot fully understand God's purpose, or know for certain that such a thing is God's purpose. There has always been debate amongtheologians as to when "ensoulment occurs", but it is alway best to err on the side of life.

Ok, but what if a divorce is given, through no fault of one spouse, do you think that one shouldn't "blame God for sin" if that very spouse decides to marry again? One should be forced to be celibate for, in theory, 50+ years, or else one is sinning? In your view?

All Christians are obliged to think of pre-marital sex as hate and marital sex as love?

Your explanation of the "calendar method" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would anyone use it at all, unless for the very purpose of preventing a pregnancy? Increased abstinence to focus on prayer? Then why would someone use the "calendar method", instead of picking any time for abstinence? Why would it just so happen to coincide with days it is most likely for a woman to become pregnant?

Ok, but what if a divorce is given, through no fault of one spouse, do you think that one shouldn't "blame God for sin" if that very spouse decides to marry again? One should be forced to be celibate for, in theory, 50+ years, or else one is sinning? In your view?
The spouse that left, that pursued the divorce, is doing the wrong thing if it was a catholic marriage and he/she had a full understanding of marriage. Even so, my personal opinion is that non catholic christians and even pagans by nature marry for life, and that they should be held to this. Nevertheless, this is upheld for catholics and some christians, according to the vows and maturity of each individual case. It is not good that people have their spouses leave them, but they must try to fullfill their vow, for the sake of their own soul, with whatever grace God gives them, even if their aberrant spouse totally forgets them. this is for certain a hard teaching, and of course, would require much consideration. The Church is not as strict as it once was with annulments, for times have changed, and the Church must be just.

All Christians are obliged to think of pre-marital sex as hate and marital sex as love? in a sense yes, though one could say that circumstances could ameliorate the seriousness of the sin, such as drunkeness, or immaturity. Also, practical understanding of marriage suggests that sex is not always ideal or what one would hope as an expession of love, but God works even in this as a spiritual teacher.

Your explanation of the "calendar method" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would anyone use it at all, unless for the very purpose of preventing a pregnancy? Increased absitinence to focus on prayer? Then why would someone use the "calendar method", instead of picking any time for abstinence? Why would it just so happen to coincide with the days it is most likely for a woman to become pregnant?

Abstnence is said to help focus on prayer for married couples, although I myself am not married, so here this is for discernment. I cannot answer fully what problems there are in why the Church has chosen this stance, and certainly, not all of the Church's teachings do I myself find easy or likeable, but I try to follow them as best I can, realizing that I am human and will screw up at times. The most difficult thing I have ever done is practice non-marital chastity. If one finds this impossible, one is free to marry.

You do realise that just because the pope forbids the use of condoms doesnt mean that the priests and the sex ed teachers in catholic schools dissagree with there use dont you?

i know this for a FACT because my mother IS a teacher in the catholic system and most catholics (even the priests) have been hoping that the church will change its offical position on contreception, not to help australia or the US, to help africa where they take the offical word to seriously

I'm a christian, love god with all my heart, and regard Jesus as the ultimate role model. But I also tend to be a realist, and try to figure out why things are the way they are. Most sins make sence if the rational of why they are in fact sins, with exception to a few. One which I was brought to think about more closely recently is premarital sex. What makes it sinful? Is it the possibility that you may accidnetally make a kid and screw that kid's life? If so, then what if you do it responsibly? It's human contact, not unlike hugs or holding hands. Does that make hugging and holding hands a sin too? How about massaging someone? Would that reel the line in too far? Where is the line? And why is the line justified?

And if anyone says it's enjoying the flesh again isn't cutting it, because those are the same people who accuse me of being very "worldly". I can't help it if this world and it's people are beautiful! I mean, damnit, God built the thing! Besides, we enjoy the flesh anyway. Whenever we run for the feel of running, we're enjoying our own bodies. Whenever we work out to better our physical capabilities, or even study for mental ones, we're catering to our flesh-based appetites. I just don't get it... Fellow christians, and anyone else, help me out here.

It is a sin that can be forgiven - I mean I have indulged in sexual activities, but I dont crave or yearn for sex now. I have asked for forgiveness and it has been granted to me. Now I shall remain a 'CLEAN until I get married to my Love.

Thank You.

Is abstaining from sex considered a waste of good sperm or eggs? Why no sin for celibacy? Probably because its no fun and it feels good which is taboo in religious circles.

premarital sex a sin?
No.... NO!!

Do as you are told God Boy or burn in hell for eternity, and give to the colection plate cause if you don't then the church might not be the ritchest organisation on earth and the pope won't get to sit in an all gold diamond encrusted chair, oh by the way you can do what ever you like as long as you ask for forgiveness before you die so ignore the rules and get busy Yeah!

Ahhh.... am I supposed to reply to that run-on sentence....? :confused:

Sin merely means to disobey a rule defined by a theistic religion. The action may or may not coincide with rational moral issues. E.g. murder is usually considered a sin by many religions and coincides with secular poor morality.

Within Christian mythology pre-marital sex is categorized as a sin. Outside of such puritanical outdated institutions, sex, before, inside, or outside of marriage is a natural, healthy activity of normal consenting adults.

Hey Cris. How's going? Long time no see.... ;)
I remember my first post and you were the first to reply. You already had a few thousands of posts....

...
Things changed.......... :D

Yaba Daba :m:

Hiya TS - ahh but I aim for quality not quantity - :D

Well... better if you have both ;)

At least I'm not like MacM or Xev.... :eek:

The spouse that left, that pursued the divorce, is doing the wrong thing if it was a catholic marriage and he/she had a full understanding of marriage.

Lawdog, to me, if the spouse fully confident the marriage(both non-catholic or catholic) was invalid and could latter be anulled, then divorce would be OK. But if the marriage ends up not anulled but legally divorced, then the marriage exists.


“ Your explanation of the "calendar method" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would anyone use it at all, unless for the very purpose of preventing a pregnancy?

Well, preventing pregancy isn't wrong. What's wrong, I think, is when people take an act, who's nature among others is procreation, and then alter its nature. In natural planing, among God's purposes to the act, procreation remains but with reduced chance. With artificial birth control, however, owing to human failure, procreation may happen, but the human intent is cto forcibly alter its nature. Likewise, if a couple is infertile, their chance of procreation is almost 0--less than that of artificial birth control--but because they're not forcibly removing the nature of the act, they're not commiting sin.

there you go weed eater guy heres a prime example of why pratice makes perfect I imagine you'd be the type to like it. But I might be wrong
(waters a girl by the way.)
You think wrong.
if the guy or guys she has been with had, had more experience, she would like it.

there you go weed eater guy heres a prime example of why pratice makes perfect
(waters a girl by the way.)

if the guy or guys she has been with had, had more experience, she would like it.

Roman was talking about the film Amelie.

as the thread is about premarital sex, an easy mistake to make, but then practice must of made it perfect for you, good.

That's the spirit!

Yaba Daba :m:

I'm a christian, love god with all my heart, and regard Jesus as the ultimate role model. But I also tend to be a realist,...
Hahahahahahahaahahahaahah!!!!!
Thanx for that. <wipes eyes>
You must live a very 'conflicted' life. Only 'solution' that I can think of that is not hypocricy is to 'dump' one of your 'beliefs', either the Xtian 'belief', or the 'belief' that you are a 'realist'. Conflict gone. Poof!

Where in the Bible does it say we can't f*** before getting married? :confused:

I'm a christian, love god with all my heart, and regard Jesus as the ultimate role model. But I also tend to be a realist

That's like helping Habitat For Humanity build a home, only to shoot people from its roof.

Ridiculous

Quote w:
"Do you think "god" "made" us?
Do you believe in "god"?"

* Define your concept of god. Then I can answer this.

Quote w:
"Do you think "god" "made" us?
Do you believe in "god"?"

* Define your concept of god. Then I can answer this.

Why *my* concept of god?
Answer for yours.

Quote w:
"Why *my* concept of god?
Answer for yours."

* `K. Do I think god made us?
I entertain the thought that the "universe", and by default ourselves, may be a manifestation of "a" consciousness. I cannot by the Biblical or religious definition of "god", call this consciousness "god".

* Do I believe in "god"?
I believe there is a higher/superior/ineffable consciousness than what I myself percieve. This consciousness my be within or without my consciousness. By the same definition as above I cannot call this god.

* Your turn.

She's a flake.

stretched,


* `K. Do I think god made us?
I entertain the thought that the "universe", and by default ourselves, may be a manifestation of "a" consciousness. I cannot by the Biblical or religious definition of "god", call this consciousness "god".

* Do I believe in "god"?
I believe there is a higher/superior/ineffable consciousness than what I myself percieve. This consciousness my be within or without my consciousness. By the same definition as above I cannot call this god.

I'm afraid I can't relate here. I never really understood this thing called "consciousness".


I think that our comprehension and analysis of that which we explore is too great for our current limited vocabulary. The words we use are bound to miss that which we are trying to name.

My understanding of God is intuitive. I have tried, in the past, to make definitions, but it turned out they are always insufficient. So, for the time being, I will refrain from doing this any further.

It is amazing how we can communicate at all.



* * *


Cottontop3000,



She's a flake.

What is a "flake", if this is said about a person?




~water~

Quote w:
"My understanding of God is intuitive."

* This communication I can relate to. :cool:

Oh, and "consciousness" I understand as my capacity/ability for "inner dialogue". My self awareness. Is this an act of self creation? Are there different levels of this manifestation of self awareness?