Fate!!!

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by anthariksh, Jan 3, 2002.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    anthariksh,

    Yes... we are here to Live and to Love...

    Yes...

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    Yes...

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    Love... and Love is God...

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    Have you been reading my posts...?

    About fate... God have plans to you... His plans is the ideal life for you. But it's YOU that choose rather you'll have it or not. That's your free will. You are a Child of God, not a slave. So, you can choose your destiny.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
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  3. Gabalawi Registered Member

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    Fate

    The belief of fate is loaded with presuppositions that defy logic and empiricism and, like religion, offers a comforting rationale for reconciling oneself to their lives and the unknown future. It seems to me that if one is truly resigned to their fate, they must also believe in an order or design to the universe which is dictated by a higher power or supreme force of some sort. It's not so much a matter of one's own freewill and freedom to make choices for themselves but the orchestration of all the countless variables beyond our control. I don't think anyone believes that everything that happens to them is determined solely by their own choices and if so, they have taken on quite a sizable burden of responsibility and accountability. What we commonly refer to as luck is the occurrence of events beyond our influence and control which happen to go in our favor. I think one can take responsibility for the circumstances of their lives while embracing the fact that there are always random factors and events beyond their control greatly affecting them. It's hard to accept that aside from our own choices, the rest of what dictates the events and circumstances of our lives are often purely random occurrences. I've found that there are some things I am simply unable, through all the willpower and concentrated intensity, to make happen. I can submit to the caprice of a random universe which can be rather despairing, or imagine that all things happen the way they do for a reason and things happen when they're meant to. In other words, trust in fate. Admittedly, with regard to certain aspects of my life, I like the notion that things happen in their time for their own reasons and I acknowledge that such a belief implies some sort of design and order to the universe which I don't whole-heartedly believe. Wrestling with my belief in faith is another sign that there is an instinct within myself that wants and maybe even needs faith in a higher order to the universe and/or dare I say God. The ongoing battle within to believe in or deny the existence of God.
     
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  5. Barney_TRubble Banned Banned

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    Ah hell here we go....


    Fate : if you believe that all is preordained, then you may as well go grab yourself a gun and shoot you in the head. you're a mindless robot, something which exists only to live a predetermined path and then die at the end of it. No-one who is religious could ever believe in such a thing, it's only us atheists who can even entertain the possibility of the existence of fate. If you live out your destiny, then you've done what you were intended to do, and therefore you're a tool. If you shoot yourself in the head, then ... well... likewise. That was just your fate after all

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    fate or destiny is a pointless exercise, one which has no practical application. If you're religious, do you really believe your higher power has set up a boardgame which has all the moves and results planned out in advance? How incredibly boring. this is where I have contention with the "God is all-knowing, and all-seeing" bit they preach at me... if so, God would want to opt out ASAP for lack of inspiration or motivation. The poor being would have self-destructed from boredom long since if it was so.

    Free will : We all HAVE to believe this in order to survive. If you DON'T believe in free will then you're a robot.. see above, shooting yourself in the head included. If you DO... then you believe that we all can make a difference one way or another. it's what you choose to DO with that free will which is the key. Whether you're religious or not, if you dont believe in free will then you might as well go cap yourself right now, because your life would mean absolutely NOTHING without it, except as a catalyst to make someone who DOES have free will do something to improve the quality of HIS life.
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Barney_TRubble

    This is hard to describe (my opinion on this only resently changed)

    I don't belive that we have no say in anything but i don't belive that my finding TI could possably been coicadance

    For starters i would like to say i met her on ICQ

    I had been just atomaticly ignoring people at the time (because i kept getting porn things insted of people)

    I just HAPPEND to deside to respond to her

    She just HAPPENS to be a red head a thing that drives me wild

    she HAPPENS to be intelegent another thing i find exstremly atractive (i don't like stupidity)

    She and I just HAPPEND to be single

    I just HAPPEN to have glasses which SHE likes

    We both hate summer and like winter

    er i had a huge list but can't think of them all off the top of my head

    So after looking at all that i don't belive we have no choice but i think we were MENT to met eachother
     
  8. Barney_TRubble Banned Banned

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    103
    Asguard....

    It may all SEEM like it was fate... but if you had not responded to her, then you would not have met her. You might have even met someone else further down the line.

    What probably happened was, you met someone at a time in your life when you were ready to do so, as was she. A very happy coincidence. YOU made the choice to meet though, didnt you? if you met on icq then SOMEONE had to offer to meet somewhere, and then compatability follows, or not. My point here is that BOTH of you made a conscious choice to take things further.

    Do you really want to believe that some higher power set you up to breed (maybe

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    ) with someone they chose for you? I breed fish myself... and pick out the ones i think will produce what i desire. Hopefully you dont think some entity is doing this with you? what a terrible thought....
     
  9. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    150
    Re: Fate

    It seems to me that you are saying that fate is not predetermination, but predisposition. And in this, I'd agree wiht you completely.

    Besides "luck", whenever we say "genetics", "talented", "gifted", etc, we are actually refering to predisposition/fate.
    Often the random factors exert far greater influence than what we claim to "control".
    To all the posters who have spoken against the concept of fate - Can you say that you have FULL control over all aspects of your life?

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    I'm sure all of us have experienced to varying extents, what Gaba is saying...
    I disagree with the "design and order" bit, but would tend to agree with most of the rest.
     
  10. Ender Registered Senior Member

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    294
    We can have control within physical boundries.

    Plus, just because we don't have complete control over everyting doens't mean that there is fate.

    While sitting at your computer raise your right hand...



    NOw did you raise your hand because it was your fate, or did you raise your hand because you wanted to?
     
  11. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    Barney_TRubble

    No, what i was thinking closer to something like soulmates or whatever. You know perfect companion that sort of thing.
     
  12. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    150
    Yes. But what I'm saying is that the very fact that we do not have control over all aspect of our lives, is a form of "fate".

    The fact that there we may be pre-disposed towards one thing or another (talent, genetics, "luck", whatever ) - this predisposition is what I would describe as "fate".

    What you describe about raising the right hand, that seems to go more towards mere determinism ie. if the universe is deterministic. If I'm not mistaken, what physics says is that the universe is not deterministic - and I have no argument with that.

    But OTOH, to argue that there is NO predispostion, or that sheer willpower and determination can overcome predispositon.... That is just an idealist speaking. The idealist idea at work here seems to stem from the oft quoted line - "all men are equal ...".

    The fact is - we are not equal. There may be matters in which I have an advantage on you, as there will be areas where you outshine me. If I were to insist that with sufficient training and determination - I could beat Kasparov at chess, I would be proven wrong, as would you.

    This inequality between Kasparov and me, is what I see as "fate".
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2002
  13. Gabalawi Registered Member

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    11
    Strange tendencies

    Indeed Barney, no thinking person is going to accept any notion that denies their autonomy and self-determination and no amount of faith and devotion toward any higher power would preclude them from acting upon their own volition. It may be that in times tragedy and desperation people invoke the will of God and leave matters of which they have or feel no sense of control, in his hands. It may be that we use the word fate to account for all the occurrences, events and coincedents that have or may have an impact in the way things turn out for us. It also serves as a concept which suggests order by way of a grand scheme unfolding for each of our lives. Perhaps we can agree that each individuals fate is ultimately determined by the choices they make.
     
  14. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    150
    Re: Strange tendencies

    Gaba,

    While I have a certian sympathy to the idea of fate, as you described it, and I modestly expanded on, I don't share your idea of "grand scheme" or "design".

    IOW, I think there may be something like "fate", but not any author/controller of fate.

    What do you suppose is behind the "grand scheme unfolding for each of our lives"?
     
  15. Gabalawi Registered Member

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    11
    The "Grand Scheme."

    What I'm alluding to is the idea that things happen in our lives for a reason. Now I don't claim to have an explanation as far as how and why or who orchestrates the events of our lives into a meaningful continuum. I'm only asserting that it's something we like to believe if for no other reason than for the comfort it allows us and temperance toward the events that might otherwise be disparaging. This is one of those concepts that ultimately relies on one's faith in some sort of higher power or force that dictates an order to the universe.

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    Do you believe that most of us need some sort of consolation for our misfortune? Whether or not I admit it, I occasionally find myself entertaining ideas that fly in the face of my own intellect and rationale to offer something other than what my mind tells me of a chaotic universe and an essentially meaningless, purposeless existence. It is what I make of it, what I carve into the blank slate of a perpetually random, pointless world and nothing more. I'd love a grand happy scheme guaranteeing me all I need in due time, but I can't buy it yet. I need a miracle.
     
  16. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    Re: The "Grand Scheme."

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    Fair enough.
    No. Atleast not me. In fact, I find it the exact opposite.

    To me it seems somewhat insulting to be a cog in the machinery of some grand design. It would give me no comfort whatsoever to subscribe to any ideas about a greater power orchestrating things.
    While the world/universe may be completely random/chaotic, my experience is that surprising patterns exist in human affairs.

    By that, I mean concepts such as "lucky", do really apply to some ppl. And it applies in a consistent way - far over what the "law of averages" might predict...
     
  17. Gabalawi Registered Member

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    11
    Abyss Guide

    To be honest, I experience little relief or consolation from such grandiose faith-based concepts which is reflected in everything about me. Every so often I'll try out a different outlook such as resigning particular aspects of my life to fate. It's actually my attempt to emulate some wise, ascetic character real or fictitious, who finds solace and resolve through his faith. In a way I envy such conviction which, despite what is actually occurring, is strong enough to endure and accept the sometimes tragic events of life. It's always a fleeting fancy and deep down I never buy it. It's like a shadow that is always there, looming somewhere to remind me of the triviality of our endeavors and occupations. Clearly they have their pragmatic functions as they provide us a living but as I sit in a cube in a 30 story office building surrounded by others, so little of what immerse ourselves in has any real reflection or relevance to what it is we actually are. Sorry for being gloomy but I find it hard to accept sometimes. "Existing nothing but existing." Jimi
     
  18. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    150
    Re: Abyss Guide

    That's a very positive sign

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    , it shows a definite intelligence that refuses to be drowned no matter how hard the possessor tries.

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    If it's true that "deep down you never buy it", then I'd suppose the best step foward would be to stop trying it on for size. But that is ultimately your personal descision to make. I apologise for proposing solutions, but according to psych studies, it's the No. 1 bad habit of the male everywhere... so I blame it on those damn chromosomes.

    I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you say you resign "parts of you life" to fate. Perhaps we are on the same track, but I feel almost no sorrow whatsoever in acknowleging that fate has treated me differently from my friends ...

    Somehow that acknowledgment is problematic for you ....
     
  19. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    816
    Our porpouse is simply to be, to exsist and live our lives in the way we see fit. No predestinatiion. If there is a God then its to live and love, if not then its to further our race. Or maybe Earth is a huge supercomputer gathering data on relationships/hardships/being ....... then again maybe not.
     
  20. G0D G0D - Gee Zero Dee Registered Senior Member

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    T&C? is that not where some serial killa did 20 girls or so?
     
  21. Gabalawi Registered Member

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    11
    being, in the now etc.

    Simply "being" is what we essentially live for it's just that most of us are really bad at it. It's that damn disease of consciousness, man's curse as I think it might've been Dostoyevsky described it that gets in the way. And what is "meaningful" would be that in which we can completely and naturally immerse ourselves. Those periods of time, sometimes merely moments when we lose our self-awareness while we're actively participating in our lives not necessarily "doing" anything but being as opposed to reflective thinking or ruminating. Of course, if that's all we did or could do, we wouldn't be human. For us it's not just being but becoming which is when all the fun stuff

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    happens and the wondering .

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