Is Abortion a right someone should have?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by hug-a-tree, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Pretty much.

    I'm planning on waiting till either marriage or something similar.

    I graduate uni next spring, hopefully...

    After that I'm probiably going to take a break and join the reserves, then get a civillian job which will easially finance a decent house and all that fun stuff...
     
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  3. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

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    That's cool. I can respect that.

    I've thought about waiting until I was married.
     
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Quarkmoon:

    All kinds of reasons. Let me give you one common situation as an example.

    Young university students have a party. They get very drunk, dancing and enjoying themselves. At some stage, a guy and girl get together on the dance floor. One thing leads to another, and they end up in the dorm room of either the girl or guy. The girl has been brought up in a good family with good morals, but she has only just moved away from home for the first time to go to college. This is the first "freedom" away from parents. She is young, inexperienced, and testing social boundaries.

    Maybe the guy she is with is a little older, or maybe not. Maybe neither of them went to the party anticipating that they might have sex - or maybe the guy did. Either way, they're both intoxicated. After cuddling for a while, one thing leads to another, and suddenly they are having sex. Maybe the girl thinks about the possibility of pregnancy, but decides for whatever reason that she is probably safe (perhaps she has just had her period). Or maybe she is too drunk to think about that kind of thing. Maybe the guy is a bit too insistent, and she is slightly afraid not to give him what he wants.

    The next day, they split up. Probably they'll see each other again, but they don't have a "serious" relationship yet, and may never have one. A few weeks later, the girl skips her period, and suddenly she gets a little worried. She buys a pregnancy test, which turns out positive. She is pregnant.

    Now what? The options are:

    1. Have the child, and keep it.
    2. Have the child, and put it up for adoption.
    3. Have an abortion.

    Options (1) or (2) mean that she will have to take time out from her studies. For option (1), this could be forever, since she'll have to devote time to the child. There's no guarantee the father will stick around. So, kiss goodbye to her college degree and the chance of getting a good job. Maybe she can't go through with adopting the child out - she would feel guilty for the rest of her life. In her particular case, she would be more comfortable with having an abortion. She agonises about the decision. Maybe she tells her parents. Maybe she tells the guy. Or maybe not. She has to make the decision quickly, because an abortion later in pregnancy is so much more difficult, both morally and physically.

    This girl may want children in the future. In fact, chances are she will have children later in life, when she is financially able to support them, when she is married and secure. But now, when she has just started studying, is the worst possible time. So, she decides to have an abortion. The decision is agonisingly difficult, but it is the right decision for her.

    I end with the question I keep repeating: who are you to tell her what she should do? Who are you to take away the abortion option?

    Will you support the child you tell her she must have, against her will? No. You have no interest at all in the matter. It's all care and no responsibility for you.

    As a man, you will NEVER have to face this kind of decision. Yet, you presume you can dictate to women in a blanket manner. You will enforce the same decision on every woman, regardless of circumstances. Because you know best.
     
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  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Quarkmoon:

    Other points in your last post:

    Some women who have abortions may feel loss and regret afterwards - perhaps most. Studies show that this is not something women just forget. However, the same studies show that women who have made the difficult decision voluntarily in the long run seldom show any long-term damaging psychological effects.

    What is your source for that statement?


    Zephyr:

    Probably not. How could we tell?


    angrybellsprout:

    The relevant question is: which situation leads to greater net harm - having rape laws, or not having them? Now, ask the same question about allowing abortions.

    Do you hate women? Why? Do you know any women?
     
  8. Nysse God is dead Registered Senior Member

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    201
    You clean the blood off the tiles and then see if it's still funny.
    No, actually, it's not that simple. She didn't have a choice whether she "kept her pants on" or not.

    It’s completely unrealistic to think that only people that wish to become pregnant should be able to have sex.
     
  9. J.J Registered Senior Member

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    53
    Abortion

    You can think this both ways.
    Abortion means kills the baby, thus it is morally wrong.
    But think of China, abortion is justified there, because the over crowded population.
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    So, J.J, would you say that it's ok for a woman to have an abortion if she already has 10 children, but not if she doesn't have any?
     
  11. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    3,287
    Nysse:
    It's completely reasonable to say that if you aren't prepared to deal with pregnancy, you shouldn't have sex. Because there is always a slight chance that if a heterosexual couple have sex, the woman will fall pregnant.

    You can't plead ignorance of this simple fact. Sex can = pregnancy. If you can't handle pregnancy, then don't have sex. Ever so simple.
     
  12. Nysse God is dead Registered Senior Member

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    201
    There's a slight chance that if you drive your car you'll be in an accident, there's a slight chance if you eat something you could choke, there's a slight chance if you go swimming you will drown. Should that stop people from driving their cars or swimming?
    Condoms, the pill, and as a last resort, abortion, are at hand so people can have sex knowing there is both prevention and a solution, if they need it, so why should they have to sacrifice sex?
     
  13. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    is it realy? have you followed your own advice?
    how many times have you had unprotected sex?
     
  14. J.J Registered Senior Member

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    So, J.J, would you say that it's ok for a woman to have an abortion if she already has 10 children, but not if she doesn't have any?

    NO I would not say that. Why you asking?
     
  15. RickyH Valued Senior Member

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    1,317
    I think Abortion should be legal but with circumstances likes

    1. The mothers body cannot support the cild
    2. She was raped
    3. The child is going to be born suffering

    There are other reasons but didn't feel like thinking about them, othere then that stuff the mother should simply put the child up for adoption.
     
  16. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    J.J:

    Because of this:

     
  17. J.J Registered Senior Member

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    53
    i didn't say that in china we can have allow abortion but in canada we shouldn't.
    I'm just giving examples to look at this question in another way.
    Consider can some thing be morally wrong but can be justified as well in our society.
    I just want to point out that if you allow abortion, there will be less trouble in society.
    Some people argue that we killed a living being, but what about wars?
    You know how many people die each day? How important are their lives?
    Also if you allow abortion, then the population might not grow that much or fast.
    Also if you do not allow abortion then you think the unwanted child is going to be treaded nicely? NO I would rather not exist than being humuliated or tortured everyday.
    Also if let's say a woman got raped, do you think she would want the child to be born when she is still in school, if she let the baby born maybe it will ruined her education, then later on ruined her child's cause she don't have the enough money to feed her/or him.
    The funny thing is who ever think abortion is wrong never stay on that side forever.
    For example people think abortion is morally wrong cause you are killing a human being. So you are not going to kill it but instead let it be born.
    But can you stay on that side for ever. What if some one punches or trying to kill you, in order tos top him is to kill him, and that can be justified under self defence in our society, but i guess it would be wrong cause killing is unjustifed in their view. If someone is like that please contact me cause i want to beat them see what they will do.
    I'm not trying to be mean or anything is just that i want to say out my point. Many might not agree but i guess i can't really change any ones mind i know you woldn't change my view on this topic.

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    One more thing, think why we never not allow abortion, or for a long?
     
  18. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    3,287
    Nysse:
    No, and you're engaging in a whopping strawman. I never claimed that people should not have sex, I pointed out that if they do have sex, they should be prepared to take care of the product of it. In otherwords, they should accept the consequences. If they aren't prepared to accept the inherent risk in having sex, then they shouldn't do so!

    While you can take precautions to ensure that the female won't get pregnant, nothing is sure thing (except removing the testicles, or tying a woman's tube/removing her ovaries), and almost everybody knows this. So if the female gets pregnant, she can't cry 'OH NOES, HOW DID THIZ HAPEN? I DIDNT NO THAT XXX CULD REZULT IN PREGGERS!'

    You call murdering an unborn baby a 'solution'? The typical twisted liberal mindset in action. If we were to apply their rationale consistently, I would have the right to murder a neighbour who was giving me problems. After all, murder is a great 'solution' to my 'problem'.

    Quite simply, if you aren't prepared to either...

    1. Raise a child
    or...
    2. Put the child up for adoption.

    Then you shouldn't have sex! Quite simple, doncha think? Sex isn't not like air, you don't need it in constant supply. Perhaps instead of engaging in murder, a couple would be better off keeping their pants on until they know that they can support, or put up for adoption, the product of their procreation. If they feel real horny, there is plenty of stuff they could do with each other that doesn't involve baby making. Oral, anal, and hand jobs don't produce children (although I have heard reports that anal sex can produce liberals and neo-cons!). If they get real desperate, there are always sex toys, vibrators, etc. And sometimes it never hurts to fall back on good ole self-satisifaction. I'm sure Adam used his hand before Eve was created!

    leopald:
    That's a rather personal question, but I'll answer anyway. I've never had unprotected sex. Currently I'm undertaking higher education, and I don't have a job. So I don't think it's a good idea to engage in behaviour which might get a woman preggers, and then scream 'OH NOES, LETS KILL THE PRODUCT OF OUR CHOICE TO HAVE SEX!'. Even if I were to adopt this twisted liberal mindset, there is a very good chance that the woman would want to raise her own child, and I would be forced to pay/care for an 'unwanted' child. Is that a risk I want to take? I don't think so!

    Quite simply, a couple know the risks of having sex, and they should take responsibility for the product of that risk, instead of killing it.
     
  19. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    thanks for answering my question
    but i believe that you are a minority, maybe not

    i feel it is a womans right to have an abortion if she chooses to

    i also feel it is the mans responsibility for prevention during sex

    james also brought up an interesting point
    there will always be induced abortions, legal or not
     
  20. QuarkMoon I Registered Senior Member

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    I also don't practice unprotected sex, I guess I'm part of the minority too.

    So, women have the right to have unprotected sex and abortions but do not have to take responsiblity for protection or the creation of a child? Wow, is this reality?
     
  21. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i don't have any statistics on the unprotected sex bit
    i believe i hinted at that in my post

    as for the rest, my reasoning is valid
    and before you ask how please read my posts
     
  22. QuarkMoon I Registered Senior Member

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    I have, read a couple pages back and you will see that I have responded to your reasoning on numerous occasions. The fact is, you are still repeating the samething over and over again no matter how many times it has been addressed. No, it is not valid. And before you ask how I know that, read any one of the multitudes of replies to your posts by myself and others.


    Common? How do you know that? I would say that kind if situation is quite rare, however I will respond regardless:

    She shouldn't have had unprotected sex in the first place, circumstances are no excuse, unless she was piss drunk and the guy forced himself onto her, which would be considered rape. But as a consequence of consensual unprotected sex, she is met with this dilemma. The answer is 2. Explaination below:

    A few months at the most. She could take 2 semesters off from school (6 months; 3 semesters if she wants to stretch it - 9 months off from school is not the end of the world), and return after giving the baby up for adoption.

    And you continue to try and argue morality and psychological affects between abortion and adoption! Abortion is the termination of your future child, adoption allows your child to live his/her life to their full potential. Termination vs adoption, yeah, adoption please. And until you can show me a study that shows adoption is more traumatizing then abortion, you can go ahead and drop this argument.

    She does not have to support the child either, put him/her up for adoption so that child will have a chance at life. Anything, even the simplest of organisms choose life over death. And if I were the father, of course I would be reponsible. However, I'm smart enough not to have unprotected sex when I'm not ready (I would rather finish college first). See, it's as simple as that. That's why I have never had to address the problem before, because I don't have unprotected sex! I mean honestly, how hard is it to slip on a glove before you bang, and then make sure the girl takes some birth control pills? Not that hard.

    No, it should not stop people from driving their cars or swimming. Why? Because people take responsibility for the consequences of driving and swimming. We have the responsibility to have insurance in order to drive. And if you don't feel you have to have insurance but you want to drive anyway, guess what happens? Your legal ability to drive is revoked! And if you are caught driving without a license, you have to pay fines and face possible jail time. When someone dives into a pool for a swim and hits their head on the bottom of the pool, do they blame the pool for their injury? No, they blame themselves for diving too deep!

    It's called responsibility, it's called accountability. If a women is having consensual sex, they have to be responsible for the results. They have to be held accountable for their choices.
     
  23. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i don't think anyone refuted this
     

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