Beyond the borders of the universe

This post was partially inspired by EmptyForceOfChi, who asked for people's theories regarding a pre-big bang "universe." So, the red shift and other observations tell us that the universe is expanding, implying that the universe has a finite size (i believe). Also, the width of the universe has been calculated (again, I believe). My point is that the universe is finite, therefore having a border or "end." So what are some thoughts on what would happen if one were to reach this end and "exit" the universe? I personally can't believe or comprehend the notion of an infinitely large universe (or multiple universes that continue out forever) but at the same time I can't envision a finite universe. I think there must always be something more but at the same time I can't imagine it going on forever. This contradiction is pretty much the only reason I believe in some sort of higher power because it's the only explanation I can come up with. So what does everyone else think?

 

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Beyond our space... is the God plane... which has qualities and parameters which we cannot comprehend, as they do not exist in our universe, and is not limited to our universes natural laws....

God plane... meaning simply... the plane of existance where God may live...
or then again... the plane may be God... we have no way of knowing...

not until we die anyway.

-MT

 

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So, MT, is God how you explain the "end of the universe?" What would you do if, hypothetically obviously, you were presented with COMPLETELY UNDENIABLE proof for the absence of a god or higher power? How would this change your views on the world and the universe?

 

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it would change alot... and thats ok... im not a fanatic..

do you have such proof?

-MT

 

Hmm, my first post.

MT, there is no such proof that God does or does not exist. End of that discussion.

As for Euler, the current matter (planets, solar systems, galaxies) in the universe, according to research proven by red shift, is accelerating (exponential acceleration). Now tell me, in the however many billions of years (not exactly sure, I believe it is 12) since the Big Bang (assuming this is how the universe began), where have we gone? I believe that since we are still accelerating, we are nowhere near the "end of the universe" therefore you have no proof or argument as to the universe being "finite." Prove me wrong, I find that kind of counter argument sexy.

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Beavis, I would assume that MT was being sarcastic when he asked me for a proof that God does not exist...either that or he's more insane than his posts have lead me to believe

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Secondly, I never claimed that we were anywhere near the "end of the universe." And it seems to me that the mere assumption of the Big Bang implies a spatially finite universe. After all, if the universe were once compressed to a tiny point and has since expanded to its current form, how can its current form be infinite? Also, Cosmic Background Radiation supports the theory of a finite universe by supporting the Big Bang Theory. Basically, how the hell can something expand in size if it's already infinite? That's basically how I see it. So if the universe if finite, which it appears to be, what's on the other side of it's "border"?

 

there is no border, please dont ask me to explaine this because i dont understand it very well myself but the theory goes that although the universe is expanding its not actually expanding INTO anything and as for crossing the border you would just go around to the otherside of the universe rather than going out of it

 

i believe the universe to be infinite. there was no begining.

reason
to explain the complexity of humanity you must assume an infinite universe or a supernatural force. i have not seen any evidence of a force other than nature

the existence of "god" has been argued since the begining of time i seriously doubt if we will solve it anytime soon

what we observe as the red shift imo is a universe brownian movement

 

There is absolutely no way that the universe has a border. This is crazy stupid talk.

If the universe has a "border," then the question to you is "What is beyond that border?"

As if our universe is like a seperate country.

Locked

 

One theory is that our universe is a 'brane' floating around in 11-dimensional hyperspace (where there are many other branes). Another theory is that our univers is a child in a larger multiverse and has siblings and possibly children of its own. Either way, everything you are is not seperate from the universe. You are a part of it and hence there is likely no reasonable way to move beyond it's border.

 

What theory?

Euler is already asking that question.

Euler, what the real question here is "Is the universe expanding or are the particles in the universe expanding?" (http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm) If it is proven that the universe is expanding, then you are correct with your theory of a finite universe, but if the matter in the universe is expanding...then there has to be a massive amount of space (maybe finite), where our planets can have a chance to slow down and reform into that singularity where the Big Bang can occur again. What I believe is the matter in the universe is expanding, not the universe itself. The universe I believe, is just there, and always has been...meaning there is no beginning of time.

From umich.edu, "Hubble made the observation that the universe is continuously expanding. He discovered that a galaxys velocity is proportional to its distance. Galaxies that are twice as far from us move twice as fast. Another consequence is that the universe is expanding in every direction." It is stated that the universe is expanding, but in the sentence after it, the galaxies are? Hmm...what do you believe is expanding?

 

Leopold, you say that "God" is the only explanation for the complexity of humanity? What about evolution? I know that this is a hot topic, and from what you wrote you probably dont believe in evolution, but I see evolution as a completely acceptable explanation for life. And could you explain what a universe brownian movement is?

Valich, you're kind of a douchebag. Actually a huge douchebag. There is no need to shoot down a perfectly reasonable question and then ask a question that I asked in my original post as if you're being brilliantly deep, even though you're just restating my original quesiton. Well played, Sir, well played.

Beavis, I just want to clarify your post a little. Are you saying that individual particles are expanding? ie the volume of an atom, for example, is continually increasing, causing the perceived "expansion" of the universe? This is what I took from your post, but I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. Maybe someone who knows a little more about this topic could clarify, but from what I've read I'm pretty sure that particles not attracted by nuclear forces are moving away from each other (aka stars and galaxies moving away from each other) but individual particles are staying the same size. But maybe not.

 

Euler, I believe I saw a show about gamma ray bursts (finding thier distance using red shift) where it talked about how the universe (galaxies, stars, planets...not the actual space that everything is in) was expanding. It said that the tiny particles (basically dark matter) is creating an energy by either bursting or expanding, causing everything in the universe to expand. Now this is the actual theory, I have no idea if this contributes to the expansion of the actual space that we live in.

Lets suppose your hypothesis of a finite universe is true and we magically happen to come to the end. What would it look like? Would it be white or black? Take into consideration of dark matter...making our universe pitch black.

 

it would not be white, as there would have to be something creating light to produce the "color" white. furthermore, dark matter does not make our universe black (for the most part), it is the mere fact that there is so damn much space and such little light and we need something to reflect light at us if we are to see it, space does not do that.

just a little food for though here: do we know how fast spacetime itself expanded "away" from the big bang? or do we simply know the expansion rate of the matter in it? I ask because I was reading the post where it was mentioned that spacetime must be finite and thought "if it expanded at an infinite rate, would it not gain an infinite distance in any period of time, and therefore be infinitely large but have expanded for a finite period of time?"

just one more thing to chew on: if space is the 3D surface of a 4D sphere, or torus, ect. it would have no "edge".

 

Can you expand on that? I cant visualize it.

 

well, when you have trouble visualizing it, bring it down a dimension. say you are a 2D being living on the 2D surface of a 3D sphere. you have no idea there is any dimension pointing away from the surface, from your POV (point of view) your "universe" is flat, but if you keep walking straight in any direction, you will return to your start, and encounter no boarder or edge of any kind. the same can be said for a torus or other shape that closes back in on itself. similarly, the space in our universe could be the 3D surface of some higher dimensional shape.

see what I mean?

I recommend the first few chapters of Brian Greene's book Elegant Universe. stop reading when you get about half way through, it gets pretty dull =]. it has nice examples of dimensional stuff, and a good explanation of how SR works. though it is contested in a thread around here whether he properly proved length contraction with his gedanken experiment.