Bush Spies on American Citizens

Or the law that Bush passed where presidential papers remain classified basically forever whereas before, after 20 years or so, the public was allowed to see em. What do they have to hide?

- N

 

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http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12192005.html

December 19, 2005
Feds Question Student, Frighten UM-Darmouth Faculty
"Why are You Reading that Little Red Book?"

By GARY LEUPP

Just when you think it can't get crazier, it gets crazier. Aaron Nicodemus, a journalist with the southern Massachusetts newspaper The Standard-Times, reports that in October of this year a senior at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth was visited by federal agents and questioned about a book he had ordered through inter-library loan. Apparently U Mass librarians are cooperating with the USA-Patriot Act. You know, the one that's all about Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism. The book was for a research paper he was doing for a course on fascism and totalitarianism taught by Professor Robert Pontbriand, a specialist in European intellectual and cultural history. The agents visited the student after he ordered a book that is, they informed him, on a "watch list."

The book being watched? No, not some Islamist tome, al-Qaeda training manual or technical work on explosives, but a well-known book the whole text of which you can find online or order from amazon.com. It's Quotations from Chairman Mao Tsetung, also known as the "Little Red Book," a book once rivaling the Bible in circulation. To really monitor its readership would involve watching all internet access to the text, purchases of the book, and library loans of it. A formidable task and insane waste of FBI time, surely. But these are mad times.

 

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I say everyone go to the library and check it out! (the Chinese edition) They can't check everyone! I wonder what this visit from agents entails. I wouldn't say anything to them.

 

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niraker
although the article you state seems frightening, have any idea the value of experience? you see i have irrefutable proof, i will say that again irrefutable proof that the patriot act isn't being abused.

neildo
the secrets of the government must always be available to the people, some like you say after 20 or so years

ponder
how many ufo sightings of the 60s was actually the sr-71?

 

Well, it's been a while now and things should have come to a head. Has the president been arrested yet? Has the judicial branch decided that he broke the law? Have they even decided what the law actually is/said? Is President Bush in jail yet? Has the various branches of government shut down the "spying" operations as illegal? Or is the "spying" still going on? Where are all of the ...so-called... legal experts?

I guess this, like so many such issues, is just going to die for lack of interest, huh? Sorta' like when Hurricane Katrina hit the gulf area ....there was no other news worthy of being mentioned, huh? ...LOL!

I suppose I'll just have to wait n' see what happens.

Baron Max

 

Bipartisan call for wiretapping probe
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/20/wiretaps/index.html

 

Ahh, so the congess is going to have a meeting to decide when to have a meeting to discuss the issue, so they can set up another meeting to decide who to talk to for the next meeting, so that they can all understand the issue ...which they can't understand right now? That probe?? ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

I guess you would have these issues decided by an angry mob instead?

 

Irrefutable proof is a mighty powerful phrase. After seroiusly going down Descartes path in search of any Irrefutable Proof in any context, my conclussion is that with the possible exception of "existence exists" there is nothing that can be proved.

In the rest of this post I will use the looser less definite more common definition of "prove".

I would be satisfied with your use of the phrase irrefutable proof if you are the person overseing the Patriot Acts implementation and you tell me that you have knowledge of everything done with that act. I don't believe any one single human being in government has the knowledge necessary to say they have irrefutable proof that the Patriot Act is not being abused.

It is much easier to prove a positive than to prove a negative. Proving the Patriot Act has been abused just needs one documented case in which the Patriot Act has been abused. Proving the patriot act has not been abused requires total documentation of every action associated with the Patriot Act.

The article I pasted seems to me to be a probably documented abuse of the Patriot act. I can see no legitimate counter-terrorism use for monitoring people who borrow Moa's little red book from the library.

Do you agree with me that, communist sympathizers are not at this time enough of a security threat to the American people to warrant an effort to identify all communist sympathizers? Can you think of another reason to monitor people who buy or borrow Mao's little Red Book other than to identify Communists sympathizers?

Please tell me which page of this thread has your irrefutable proof that the Patriot act is not being abused.

 

i haven't posted it. i will pm you if you wish
irrefutable proof is kind of harsh. i will replace it with "damn good evidence"

 

Please PM me, I would like to see it. I will keep it private, although I wonder why you can show it to me if you can't show the rest of the people.

 

ever been to a 75% off sale?

 

leopold wrote:
"the secrets of the government must always be available to the people, some like you say after 20 or so years"

What? Then what happened to the report about JFK by the Warren Commission? I thought that even after 25 years it didn't get released??? I must have missed that.

nirakar:
"Please PM me, I would like to see it. I will keep it private, although I wonder why you can show it to me if you can't show the rest of the people. "

Be careful-- if they tell you they might have to kill you!

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the cia doesn't want you to know they are fuck ups.

 

The various branches of government? The ones all controlled by republicans! You're doing just what the repubs in congress are doing, raising questions that they know won't be answered because of a republican majority in congress, and the judicial.

You are either dumb or either arguing for the sake of arguing baron. The constition says it's illegal to spy on americans without a courts approval, and ole georgie did not get the courts approval.

All of you neocons need to just not accept this presidents word considering he has proven himself to be a liar. He broke the law and it's as simple as that!

 

for all you curious people out there here is an excerpt of nirakers opinion:

No I don't think it is damn good evidence, but it does give you a unique relationship to the Patriot Act/ illegal searches issue. Your personal experience does add something of value to what you bring to the discussion. Most of us are talking about something that does not really touch our lives. This issue really does touch your life.

i disagree but . . .

 

It's a toss-up. Seriously, though, he doesn't really want to discuss issues, just use rhetorical tricks, canned, meaningless phrases and weak arguments to antagonize people. Ignore him.

The Administration's mouthpieces (Gonzales, Rice, and others) are taking the position that what Bush ordered is not illegal because of the broad powers granted by Congress after 9-11. They are not denying that they went after U.S. citizens, and they are not denying that they went around the FISA law. What they are saying is that the Congress gave the Bush administration the legal right to ignore any law it sees fit. It is now up to Congress and I suppose the Supreme Court to decide if that is correct.

It is interesting to note that this would never have come to light had someone within the system not leaked it. Who, I wonder? And what other information might they have? I'd like to know who was being eavesdropped on, for example. Not who they were talking to or what was said, just a comprehensive list of every American citizen who was a subject of this extralegal surveillance.

 

Yes, that would be interesting te jen. I noticed tonight on Kudlow and Co. (on CNBC) that the title of one of their segments was something like "Democrats - Soft on Security." They are scum. Right-wing propagandist scum.

 

propagandist scum, that is such a beautiful phrase, makes me think of apple pie.
all education is propaganda . . . but that is another thread

 

Fuck apple pie.