God as the UEB (Ultimate Evolved Being)

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Xylene, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    I wrote something the other day in one of the Science threads about God being the ultimate expression of evolution, because he/she/it had transcended physicality, and moved beyond the need for a body. It would mean that God is pure mind, and the ultimate Universal Mind. Comments?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433
    I assume you are referring to Abraham's God. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

    First of all, do you assume that God was once human, or in some other sense had a body? Then, over time evolved to a point in which he no longer needed a body?

    Second, what does it have to do with Evolution? Evolution is basically the changing of a species to adapt to its environment, correct?

    So, what is your vision?
    God was a physical being on earth who had evolved away from being a physical entity (how would that even progress?) to suit his environment (what would be the benefit of not having a physical body in a physical existence?) then created humans to follow his lead?

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
    Maybe I am just completely missing your point.
    Please elaborate a bit.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    it really doesnt make sence. evolution takes a long time and more importantly many generations, if he was once physical then it wasnt evolution that changed him because evolution doesnt change someone once they are a thing. You could say he mutated though i guess
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,224
    So, God is a Q or something?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    I would believe this to be the most plausible outcome of an ever evolving universe.

    The replies that have been posted are demonstrating a very limited understanding of the nature of the universe. First, the universe has two options for its existence. One, it was created out of nothing (which is impossible by definition) or two, it has existed for an infinite length of 'time' (impossible to conceptualize but cannot be proven wrong). Therefore, its generally accepted that the universe (or system's of universes outlined by M-theory) has been going through eternally repeating cycles of existence whereby any life that evolves out of it necessarily pursues one course of action out of an infinite number of possibilities which have all been pursued infinite times before. That is, if the universe has always existed, all cause/effect reactions have happened infinite times. As such, since all life is the reaction of organized energy particles acting on a causal basis, life must have necessarily evolved in every way possible always returning to the same conclusion in the ultimate end (remember, this is not merely 1 billion years....it could be trillions, or trillions of trillions of years before the cycle begins again). While most agree that evolution doesn't have a transitional plan, but follows random mutations, there is still an overall direction towards complexity. Consciousness as we know it has only taken 4 billion years to develope out of a single cell. Therefore, allowing for trillions (at least) of years for evolution until the universe may be unable to support life (and results in a major crunch or expansion), the progress of evolution towards complexity should result in an absolute state.

    That state would seem to be one of absolute adaptation to the environement and universe. Additionally, since intelligence and consciousness are even possible, it should seem that this end state would be one of absolute intelligence and consciousness. Furthermore, since the universe is thought to be made of unimaginably small strings of 1dimensional energy, a state of perfect adaptation might be thought to be one of pure, complementary energy. After all, if all life is an embodiment and representation of the fabric and aspectual shape of the universe, then in real terms we are the universe observing itself.

    The other related issue to consider is the progression of universal embodiment on each scale and the ultimate implication for meaning. For example, particles organize themselves based on the rules dictated by physics such as alpha (the sybmol for particle interaction within a vacuum). In turn, they assemble to become complex chemical arrangements such as the nucleotides found in dna. At this point they begin to specialize still directed by the forces of physics. Further specialization occurs to create organelles within each cell. Cells multiply and specialize and create different organs to facilitate different functions within a complex lifeform. Lifeforms within a civilization or group begin to specialize to support the greater functions of widespread survival and development. At this point we cannot infer what the specialization of whole groups of life forms after further evolution will be, and what purpose they will serve. But if your minds allow for unlimited amounts of time to pass (generally unconceivable by humans....but still try), absolute specialization, absolute adaptation, absolute complexity, absolute intelligence, and absolute consciousness make the statement in the initial post a very plausible reality.

    questions? comments?
     
  9. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    oh, and i mentioned in the last paragraph that we cannot infer as to the purpose of each level of specialization. However, there is actually a scientific explaination for life on all of these levels known as entropy, the second law of thermodynamics. If you haven't heard about this I suggest looking into it.
     
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433
    Let me start by saying that if Xylene was referring to the Abrahamic God, teh uiniverse has most certainly not existed for an infinite amout of time, which pretty much blows all of your theory out of the water, because God created the universe. Something being created implies that it did not exist prior to creation.
    This is why I wanted Xylene to clarify what (s)he was putting forth.


    Generally accepted by whom?
    Most scientists believe that the universe began at the Big Bang.

    That does not necessarily follow.

    Again, this does not necessarily follow.
    An infinite amount of time does not imply that there can be no such thing as a unique event.
    In fact, if you consider the universe to be infinite in space as well as time, it seems pretty unlikely this is true.
    Can you provide something to back this view up?

    False.
    Evolution may be said to have a overall direction towards efficiency and utility if anything.
    This does not necessarily mean more complex.
    In fact, it often means less complex.

    You lost me.

    Since legs are possible it should seem that this end state would be one of absolute legs.
    See how little sense that makes?
    Besides, if this was true, then your whole idea of evolution progressing towards greater complexity is worthless.
    If we shed our physical body and retaion only our consciousness, we become LESS complex, no?
    Furthermore, our "consciousness and thought" are results of our physical brains.

    String theory is unsupportable, untestable wild speculation.
     
  11. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    please update yourself with the last 5 years of supported phyiscs before responding to any of what i have stated.

    referring to the the big bang and a single universe at this point is like referring to the earth being flat.... it really frusterates me when people come on here are display such a limited comprehension of widely accessible topics.

    thus far i've only read your introduction. i'm sure i'll be back with more unless i'm just rendered too frusterated to continue
     
  12. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433
    I have.
    Please keep your pompous indignation to yourself, prick.
    There is not only no universally accepted proof of either string or brane theory, but mainstream (supported and widely accepted) science has not even come close to dicarding the Big Bang Theory.
    Just because it is *new* does not mean it is either correct nor universally accepted.
    There have been plenty of new and hot theories that promised to take physics by storm and, in the end, fizzled out.
    There is not a shred of physical, measurable evidence for string or brane theory. Without such evidence it is nothing more than mere speculation.
     
  13. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    sorry to clarify one thing... my comparison of your statement to the earth being flat is just addressing the outdated nature of the belief. a more accurate comparison on the basis of the statement's implications would refer to scope. for example, believing our universe is the only one and that the big bang was one of a kind, starting all time and matter, is like a man on an island with no sight of other land believing that his island is the only one, and must have been created by a single process special only to that island.
     
  14. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    i do agree that there is a lot of unproven theories out there. but i also made sure not to say they have been universally agreed upon. i also think the implications are relevant in allowing people to consider larger scales of time and existence than were previously being discussed.

    a question: what do you feel is the end result of evolution?
     
  15. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433
    I do not think Evolution HAS an end result, because it does not have an intention or ultimate universal goal.
    If it does seem to have a general direction (in hindsight) that would be towards efficiency and utility, as I said.
    The only "goal" of evolution, if it has one, is for the evolving entity to adapt to better suit, survive and thrive within the context and confines of its own environment.
     
  16. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    believing our universe is the only one and that the big bang was one of a kind, starting all time and matter, is like a man on an island with no sight of other land believing that his island is the only one, and must have been created by a single process special only to that island.

    What evidence or observation is there for one to think otherwise?
     
  17. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    later on you state that "God created the universe" which means that my statement that the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time was false. however, "god" as you want to call it IS existence/universe/all things. Thus, if "god" created our universe then "god" existed previously. As i know you won't and don't believe that god did not always exist and must have created himself out of nothingness, you'll be able to agree in saying that "god" has existed for an infinite amount of time. therefore, time is infinite. therefore all possible outcomes have occured.

    you also stated that "An infinite amount of time does not imply that there can be no such thing as a unique event." This is impossilble and completely false. Infinite time necessarily means that anything that could happen, will and has happened. A unique event could only be possible under a finite quantity.
     
  18. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433
    Not in the Biblical account of what/who God is.

    Stating it does not make it true.
    Qualify it.

    I don't buy it, can you sell me on it?
     
  19. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,924
    God is within us, but because of our bodies, god, the self, we, cannot express ourselves as we really are. When we evolve, we'll be able to be what we really are without lying to ourselves. The self is already perfect, it never evolves, it was never born, only physical things need to evolve in order to express the self more precisely.
     
  20. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,353
    Logically flawed comparison...

    A man sitting on an island has his theory/belief that his is the only one.
    But observation of another island is possible - and thus his theory/belief is disprovable.

    The theory/belief that ours is the only Universe is NOT DISPROVABLE.
    We can never observe anything outside our Universe.

    The comparison is thus flawed.

    Following your own logic, I could quite easily claim anything, absurd or otherwise, that is not disprovable (e.g. God or maybe an invisible pink unicorn that sits on my desk, or that the Universe is actually a 99-dimensional animal that lays its eggs on the back of a hippo the size of an amoeba and is coloured pink with yellow spots on the outside), and say - "well, they once thought the Earth was flat - and look how wrong they were!"

    I hope you see the flaw in your comparison?
     
  21. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,433

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    What are you saying?
    It isn't?

    Don't shatter my view of reality like that.

    Unless you can prove it, I can still believe it!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    so we all know there is not hard proof for string theory. this is not new information to me. i know i've stated that but it was more to open the door for greater possibilities not allowed for with conventional linear thought

    the conflict with this discussion is that personal view on existence is always going to be fundamentally different for people who follow an organized religion and/or take religious literature literally. while i'm contantly astonished that anyone can take organized religions seriously, i recognize that people would rather have a definitive answer rather than attempt to live with an unsolvable question. for me though, i will believe what can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but more importantly, i will believe things that make sense given current knowledge. at this point, not that i'm speaking on behalf of any of your beliefs, angels and demons and heaven and hell just really doesn't make a whole lot of sense in light of what we know of the nature of existense. human's are not and will never be as centered in the grand scheme as people of religious denomination might like to think. civilization's 50,000 year stint is essentially nothing when compared to 4 billion years of life, or 15 billion years of the universe. we will eventually evolve to become something else.....you all know that (please don't come back to this comment with a creationist response, thats honestly really rediculous). the point of this is that the 'shape' of life is not human. its more complicated than that. so any story about angels, or jesus as a son of god, or anything where human characteristics are used in describing some aspect of religious explaination for existence should immediately trigger some doubt about that explaination's credibility.

    im heading out on tangents. but i think the main reason for bringing this up, is that the religious view of everything is so short term and simple....and really resembles a fairy tail.... and while i know there's no hard fact supporting some of the recent physics, its ability to expand peoples' notions of what existence encompases is worth pursuing. but, if someone is going to blindly accept facts said to be the word of god as dictated by religious literature that has so clearly been fabricated then there is no argument that will be able to convince them of something with a more grand scope.

    if you want. please please ask me why i stated how it should be obvious that literature like the bible is absolutely not the word of god, but a complete fabrication for reasons i'd love to expand on. i warn that my response may take a while or come in sections because the discussion is not a short one.
     
  23. ExPlOrE Registered Member

    Messages:
    13
    “ Originally Posted by ExPlOrE
    This is impossilble and completely false. Infinite time necessarily means that anything that could happen, will and has happened. A unique event could only be possible under a finite quantity. ”

    there are two possible types of outcomes of a set of possibilities within infinite time.

    1. there are an infinite number of possibilities resulting in the never ending occurence of unique events. for example we can count for an infinite amount of time. numbers never reach a limit so they are infinite in nature. if we start with 1 and only look at a forward direction of infinite, then infinite numbers will be counted in an infinite amount of time. moreover, each number will only be counted once and therefore will be a unique event.

    2. there are a finite number of possibilities resulting in the never ending cycle of all possible outcomes. my original quote stated that unique events in our universe were not possible which implies the set of possible events in our universe is finite. the reason i hold this to be true is because, unlike numbers, there are limitations and finite borders (not in the literal sense like a country's borders). those limitations are on the number of particles within the universe. the expansion/inflation of the universe implies a finite set of matter and we know that looking past a certain point of the universe matter ceases to exist. therefore, if the number of particles within it are finite, their must be a finite number of possible outcomes to their interactions. given an infinite amount of time and the relentless cycle of expansion and crunch or perhaps just expansion....all possible outcomes occur eventually (even if it takes a near infinite amount of time)
     

Share This Page