Cold War II

Discussion in 'World Events' started by supernova_smash, Mar 18, 2002.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Hating th US is not instintive. These people have issues with the "WEST" that should of been addressed YEARS ago. Then we wouldn't BE in this stupid mess. We didn't adress their issues though so they felt they had no choice but to try to escalate the situation. Which they did. Now insted of addressing their issues so this can NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN we go to war and what do we do we kill more civillans than THEY DID. It ok for us because its "CALATERAL DAMAGE". Do you really think the people whos familys and friends are dieing CARE what we call it. to them its just another example of why they SHOULD hate us.

    You will note i included Australia in that because aslong as little johny is in power we will side with the WAR insted of siding with peace
     
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  3. ICARRYALOTOFBULLETS Quit smoking...:) Registered Senior Member

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    And what issues are these??? I want you to name every issue they have against us prior to 9/11
    If you respond to something I say make sure you read and understand it first, which you apperently didn't, again.
     
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    I can't possably do that because i am sitting in my home all the way down the bottem of the world and it would be wrong of me to say i knew them all anyway.

    Just 2 might be Israil (potentually a big one from what i have herd) and Iraq. I don't know if these are issues for them but i could see how they might be. Maybe its globalisation (a hell of a lot of countrys have a problem with that one including US people).

    Don't you think we should ASK them why before labeling them "hopeless religiouse fanatics" and blowing them up.

    if anyone here actually knows it would be good to post it because im just speculating on it.
     
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  7. ICARRYALOTOFBULLETS Quit smoking...:) Registered Senior Member

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    You should know what they are, before you throw acusations.
    It's our support of Isreal dude, that is why they hate us, the only reason. They don't like jews, and they would rather kill them all, like some other country tried. Which one was that...hmm, can't remember. This is the thing, if America renounced Isreal today, this hour or a minute ago, everything would be forgiven. If we served Isreal on a big silver platter, they would be our best friends. The middle east would turn into the land of Oz with Sadamn as the wizard. People would throw flowers at each other instead of missiles, all races will come together and sing we are the world until the sun set...

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  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Do you know a FACT that israil for is there only problem with the west? (id like to see your sorce of that infomation)
     
  9. ICARRYALOTOFBULLETS Quit smoking...:) Registered Senior Member

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    Ya I think its a fact, since its the only thing that keeps coming out of their mouths. On Cnn they kept talking about American policy this and that. What policy? Guess...
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    Yeah, the Isreal policy.

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  10. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    So your sorce is CNN?
    an AMERICAN news sevice thats fairly represents world view?
    when i was looking for Infomation on world opinion AGAINST Australia about our handerling of refugees i found it helpfull to look at a news service OTHER than Chanel 7.

    If im wrong and you have other documentation then i would be MORE THAN happy to look at it
     
  11. supernova_smash Registered Senior Member

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    reply to an old post of asgaurd's

    I know this was an old post but I just can't help replying to it:

    I agree with this to a certain extent. But at the same time, how a government (or the President) acts is not soley based on what the voters REALLY want! The leaders, although voted in by the public, are not predictable and the voters can't be held responsible for all of the leader's actions. Many of the desicions are made based on the President's personal view, at least the way I see it. Out of all the people that voted for Bush, it is possible (but very unlikely) that not one of them approves of the action taken since Sept. 11. It's sad but I don't think the average citizen has much power in the US, even in numbers. I have a hard time thinking that Bush would stop the military campaign even if 75% of America was against his actions.

    I suppose in a way the voters ARE technically responsible for their country's actions because they voted him in and allowed him to excersise his power. But how a president responds to something like this is almost entirely left up to his own character, which is a difficult thing for voters to predict.

    But this is only a Canadian interpretation

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    .
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    that might be true in the US especially because of the length of time between elections and the fact that a presadant can only run twice. In Australia the Labor party and the Demacrats (both are left wing partys don't know if you call the partys by the same wings but as i understand it bush is right wing in our terms) bag the goverments actions alot and make sure the media knows when the goverment is doing something wrong and puplic opinion drops (it hapend resently that a senitor used parlamentry privlage to defame a high court judge, the PM was forced to cut him lose because he was bad for there image) also the demacrates have a habit of blocking bad bills in the senit.

    Maybe the people of Australia have more power over there palaiment.
     
  13. supernova_smash Registered Senior Member

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    31
    hehehe

    Are you saying this is a bad thing?

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  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Not when Little johnys in power its not

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  15. ICARRYALOTOFBULLETS Quit smoking...:) Registered Senior Member

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    I stand corrected,

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    , hey at least I can admit it. Anyways their are a few reasons why they hate me, but I bet you I was right about the number one reason...there more, a lot more sites on the web, but I gotta get ready to go...peace.

    Similar agitated scapegoating of Israel was to be found in a September 17 piece by Gary Kamiya, executive editor of the online magazine, Salon.com. Kamiya insistently demanded that Israel comply with Arab-Islamic demands. “As long as millions of Islamic and Arab people hate America because of its Mideast policies, we will be in danger,” he explained.

    Spare America – take Israel is the thrust of Kamiya’s petition in a rambling, contradictory argument about settlements and Camp David. “There will be no peace for the U. S. until we convince Israel to make peace with the Palestinians,” he states, ignoring that at Camp David, despite Israeli concessions and the importuning of President Clinton, it was the Palestinians who refused to make peace.

    The Boston Globe’s Derrick Jackson asserted in a rageful September 21 column: “If Americans really want to understand why Americans might have been targeted for catastrophe in New York and Washington, we can no longer ignore the fact that we are helping the Israeli police and military to outkill Palestinians by more than a 3-to-1 ratio.”

    The BBC’s Teheran correspondent Jim Muir outdid even these finger- pointers in a rabid September 19 report entitled “Explaining Arab Anger.” Muir declared that “many people in and from the region had a deep gut feeling that decades of accumulated poison somehow found expression on 11 September 2001.”
    The “poison,” as he presents it, stems from Israel’s conduct toward the Palestinians since its “creation in 1948.” He states, “Although there are many other issues, Washington’s enabling alliance with Israel may be the biggest element in the Arab and Muslim anger, hatred and despair which are focused on America. For them, Israel is a terrorist, gangster state which has usurped Palestinian land and water, demolished Palestinians’ homes, and stopped at nothing in pursuit of its interests and enemies, including torture, murder...”

    USA today:
    But beyond that, say scholars and other experts, the reason hatred, resentment or deep dislike exists in one degree or another among many Muslims in the Arab world, lies in a complicated web of U.S. policy, repressive foreign regimes, poverty, religious fundamentalism and, even, American naiveté. There's resentment over U.S. economic, military and political power. There's disgust from many in the male-dominated Muslim world over the strong role women play in America and the "suggestive" way they dress. Then add on top of all that the way U.S. culture dominates the world, often steamrolling religious and cultural institutions that have existed for thousands of years, and there is fertile ground for anti-American fervor to take root.

    "Part of the fury is that the United States is the sole remaining superpower, and we are the magnet for hatred," says Jessica Stern, a terrorism researcher at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government, in Cambridge, Mass. "People feel deprived. They feel that their lives have not gone the way they should. We are a convenient symbol of the 'other.' "

    1)Israel and the Palestinians. Despite many attempts to be a mediator, the United States still is perceived by Muslims to have unfairly provided years of unstinting support for Israel, causing widespread grievances through the Muslim world, even in countries far from the Mideast. The collapse of peace talks last year and the election of conservative Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon earlier this year have fed the agitation. "There is a real disaffection from the United States because of its policies in Israel," says Terence Taylor, Washington director of the London-based think tank International Institute of Strategic Studies. "This won't be put right in the next few weeks."
    2)U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. Placed there just before the Gulf War with Saudi Arabia's blessing to protect that nation and to serve as a staging point for taking back Kuwait, the troops have never left. The U.S. Air Force has about 5,000 personnel in the country. Their presence enrages some Muslims, who regard the country as holy ground because it is the birthplace of Islam, and has given bin Laden a crucial rallying cry. "For bin Laden, it has been the critical thing," Taylor says. (In 1996, his followers bombed the American military barracks there in Dhahran, killing 19 servicemen.)
    3)U.S. economic sanctions against Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Iran. Such sanctions, aimed at states the United States says have sponsored or harbored terrorists, have centered almost entirely on Muslim countries. For Americans, there is a tendency to paint all Muslims with the same broad brush, experts say, but to Muslims, these countries are different — and in some cases even enemies. "To the average Muslim in the street, it appears the U.S. is targeting them," says Said Aburish, author of several books on the Middle East. Aburish lives in Nice, France.
    U.S. support of repressive Middle East regimes and feudal monarchies. For fear of alienating strategic allies, the United States often ignores abuses of civil rights in countries such as Saudi Arabia, experts say.
    4)U.S. military tactics. The long-distance missile strikes on Iraq, in particular, have caused resentment. "President Bush calls ... attacks on the United States cowardly, but from the Mideast viewpoint surgical long distance bombing is cowardly," says Mary Kaldor of the London School of Economics. To many Iraqis, the death of civilians and the destruction of the country's infrastructure, from bombing during the 1991 Gulf War and attacks since then — as well as from economic sanctions by Western countries — constitute terrorism

    "We feel outraged by what happened in the United States, but we want the world to feel the same about the daily Israeli killings of Palestinians, the demolishing of houses and the humiliation of the people," said Wafa Mohammed, a shop owner in Jordan. "If the United States had sympathized with the Arabs, the destruction that took place in the United States wouldn't have happened," said Mohammed Tohami, a 22-year-old Egyptian frame maker. "There's a feeling among Arabs that the United States is totally responsible for what's happening in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict," said Imad Shueibi, a Syrian political analyst.
    The Palestinian-Israeli clashes began one year ago today. The spark, according to the Palestinians - or the pretext, according to Israel - was a visit by then-opposition leader Ariel Sharon to the holiest and most disputed site in Jerusalem, which Jews call the Temple Mount and Palestinians Haram as-Sharif.
    Since then, 642 Palestinians and 177 Israelis have been killed. Many of the Israeli casualties were civilians who died in Palestinian suicide attacks against discos, restaurants, markets and train stations or shootings with machine-guns and mortars. The resulting resentment cannot be ignored as President Bush, who has threatened to punish Afghanistan's Islamic rulers harboring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden, assembles U.S. forces for a retaliatory strike. Bin Laden has portrayed himself as the champion of Muslims and Palestinians.



    http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/oncamera/ocscape.htmlhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/19/cover.htm#more http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2001/10/10/17673.html
     
  16. Barney_TRubble Banned Banned

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    Asguard, The Labour party in Oz, on a scale of a 30cm ruler, sitting at about the 13.5cm mark. The libs are at about 16.5cm. Neither can truly be classified as left or right-wing, they're just slightly left of centre or slightly right. And regardless of what you think about labour, they only expose liberal , er... "stuff ups" because it helps them get in power at the next election. when they're in power, the Libs will be doing exactly the same to them.
    I'm guessing you havent had exposure to the political world here for all that long. This is not an intended slight to you, but one thing you might realise in time is... no matter who you vote for, The Government gets in. That just about sums up Oz politics, and I'm fairly certain it applies to most of the world

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    And for the Palestinians to say the US is the cause of all their woes is ridiculous... The Arabs and the Jews have been at each others throats since oh, way back when Jesus was around, and a long time before that (You know the biblical Philistines? who do you think THEY were?). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US as a nation wasnt around back then? And what would happen to Israel if the US WASN'T around? BOOM!! Thats what. The Arabs have already tried it a couple of times in 1948, '56, '67 and '73 and luckily for the Jews they had enough European and later US-supplied hardware enabling them to survive. A couple of these wars were pre-emptive strikes by the Israelis, true, but if you look at the background immediately prior to the war's beginning you'll see why they felt they had no choice. Once you know there's no way out of a fight, make sure you get the first punch in if youre the little guy.

    The dumbest thing the world did after WWII was to carve out the Jews a big chunk of the Middle East and say "here ya go fellas,... a place to live in Peace" without asking the Arabs first. no end of s*** started from that... but we're stuck with it now for better or worse and we'd better find a way for them all to get along fast or they're gonna start something fairly major soon. Sure the Israelis are an argumentative, stubborn, martial sort of country but given the fact they're totally surrounded by traditional enemies, who have made no secret of the fact that if they had a choice the whole of Israel would be carved into chunks, you have to give some benefit of the doubt. It was the WHOLE world who drew in those lines on the map after the war... and we've been paying for it ever since. Israel, it would appear, most of all.

    Picture if you will... the world deciding to give Melbourne and everything around it for a 300km radius to the Zubwillahs, because they need somewhere to live in peace. Australias vote isnt considered. You dont think Australia would be just a wee bit annoyed about it?

    The Middle East are just as adept at playing the propaganda game as anyone else, and you unfortunately seem to have fallen victim. Dont think I'm on the side of the Israelis or the Arabs.... the israelis use their "big brother" to pull of a lot of crap they wouldnt be able to get away with otherwise, and the Arabs given half a chance would blow the whole country away. Both sides are as bad as each other IMNSHO.
     
  17. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    No i haven't been VOTING long but i have been studing politics since i was 10 because its something important to my family. You are right in MOST cases Labor or Libral dosn't matter but i still think THIS time it would. There are differences between the partys even if those differences are miner. This dosn't garentie im right but its more likly our forces would be at home if Labor was in power.

    You are right the oposition job is to bag the goverment. Look at Victoria at the moment.


    SO WE SHOULD ALL VOTE DEMOCRATE. I did
     
  18. Barney_TRubble Banned Banned

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    Yeah but if we all voted Democrat then they would become The Government... See?

    I know what you are saying As, but i am simply too cynical to believe that changing parties in the next election is gonna solve anything... its a failing of mine

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