Immigration policies

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Xerxes, Mar 14, 2002.

  1. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Considering the events of Sept. 11th etc, what should immigration policies be like. (toughened, completely closed, completely open.)

    I personally believe that all borders should be completely open, since it is wrong to take away someones right to move freely within reason, that is. Nationalism cannot work because suppression is always overcome, with sometimes, well....not so good results for those countries, (eg Germany).

    What do you guys think? what should immigration policies be like, do you have any UNIQUE idea's to back it up. We all know the economical and social effects, but I'm curious at how it really affects people.
     
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  3. This is an issue which has particular importance to us Australians at the moment because we're currently going through a refugee crisis.

    I agree with you that borders should be open. No country "owns" the land which they inhabit. Here in Australia many people have a "send 'em back to their own country" attitude. But for f*cks sake, pretty much all of the people who harbour that opinion are descended from immigrants anyway. Some are only second generation Australians.

    The only people who have any right to that argument are the Aborigines who were here first (and still happen to be treated like dirt).

    As for the benefits, well like you said the economical and social. I would add to that cultural as well. Australia is totally multicultral, you name a country, we have people from that background. It makes life interesting for a start, it opens your eyes up to the amazing diversity in the world. Growing up I had asian friends, greek, italian, sudaneese, european, indian etc. Going around to their houses and seeing their traditions was great, much more interesting than the everyday vanilla culture I came from.

    That's how immigration affected me personally, but I don't know if it's unique like you were asking for.

    Io
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2002
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    MORE IMAGRATION but can we exile pauline hansan to the US im sure the wont even notice her
     
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  7. Raimon Registered Member

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    And speaking of Australia, and apart from that 'devastating refugee-crisis', what's your opinion about the expensive, time-consuming and overall difficult-made immigration procedures for the so-called 'skilled migrants'?

    And, it's by no means only about obtaining some pr-visa. In fact, the necessary procedures to actually get one's skills re-acknowledged can be much more of a subsequent problem.

    And in many cases, and amongst several other 'inconveniences' this often involves several months of absolutely unpaid so-called 'practicum work'.

    Perhaps it's all much more about gaining benefits from such forms of 'modern slavery' instead of getting really skillful people into the country... who knows?

    Or - who would you bet on would really waste their time and efforts for going through all these hurdles?

    Really highly skilled professionals??

    Or could it perhaps rather be some sort of 'clever pretenders' who would have enough time on their hands for all that hassle?

    --Raimon--
     
  8. kmguru Staff Member

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    Restricted immigration is the best policy. Care should be taken to integrate each batch before bringing in a fresh batch. Here in US, at the professional level, we imported a lot of Computer people in the last 4 years primarily because they were cheap labor (50%) and willing to stay inside a major metropolis where most of the major corporations are located. The result was a disaster. Eighty percent of the projects failed. Now, native computer people are out of work, a lot of imports are out of work and it is causing a lot of resentment among the population.

    If one manages the immigration properly (a co-operative effort by government and industry like FCC) then it can be a great thing for the country. Fresh blood provides fresh perspective and enhances the economy and quality of life.
     
  9. betavoltaic future-shock-rider Registered Senior Member

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    I would like to know more about your take on Nationalism and why you think it can't work. Also why you lump Nationalism in with suppression.

    Personally I am a strict anti-globalist. I also believe that spreading over someone's borders with hundreds or thousands of refugees should call for a military response. It is like an unarmed invasion. Just because they don't carry guns with them does not mean they will do no damage later. Not to say refugees should come under fire but the military would need to handle the situation and be prepared for anything.

    Borders have to be controlled for security reasons. Tighter restrictions don't need to be visible ones though if technology is applied to the problem with a multi-tiered interoperable system.
     
  10. justagirl Registered Senior Member

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    closing the border makes more sense than war. It's cheaper, less judgmental to the world community, and is a good vaccine once the sleepers are located. We can't cure crime and history all over the world and in our own country proves it.
     
  11. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    Im in agreement with you on this one. I think we should have stricter immigration policies. I mean it sucks, but it should be done. This land is made up of immigrants, true, but that was along time ago and things must and always do change.

    Groovin'
     
  12. Raimon Registered Member

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    Thanks for confirming that as the only main reason!

    And that really did surprise anybody????????

    But exactly those idealistic and/or visionary thinking people are seldom coming in settings which mainly only attract some sort of 'cheap labour'

    --Raimon--
     
  13. Raimon, I'm not here to debate with you on whether immigration is good or bad.

    Elbaz asked how immigration personally affected people, and I gave my answer.

    If we have differing opinions, no amount of debating will change either of them.

    Io
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Oh PLEASE let us send Paulin Hansan over to the US. I mean shes no worse than Bush so no-one will notice. we will even through in little Johny as a Bonus.

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    Then maybe we can get good country leadership like Labor or the Democrats (even the greens would be better than those 2)
     
  15. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Well from what I've expected and I am seeing, most anti-immigration people live in the U.S. . Although it comes as no surprise, I wonder what your parents would have said if the doors were shut on them when they tried to enter the U.S. .

    I find that the reason most foreigners dont particularly like the US, is there hypocritical monotone on world peace and stability. I mean just take a look at the world, the U.S. has a clear trust on many major industries, and if there's a threat, then outrageous tarrifs will be enacted, so as to keep business (and thus) money into a country of stupid lazy bums.

    Tight immigration policies prevent wealth from being spread through other countries, when globalization could really be doing alot to even out the world scene. So either way its big fish eat little fish until there is a dominant nationalist world country, that has freedom to do what they want to the other countries, even if they dont realize it irritates some people (ie bin laden) who eventually split the world into two groups with some surprising sidings. This eventually causes world war three and enormous amounts of people die.

    I dont think it was wise to elect yours truly, GI George, king of the rednecks to the royal throne.
    Now although I dont support terrorism, I really believe it was a serious mistake to start a war and build even bigger gaps. It could have been prevented which connects to immigration policies if you'd examine the roots.

    Thats why nationalism cannot work and thats one of my reasons for leaving open doors (withing reason ie no known terrorists allowed in).

    Disasters happen because of poor planning. Goverment should help create jobs and infrastructure while still protecting the population from threat.
    Thats my reasoning. This issues really needs alot of peeling to get into the juicy center......
     
  16. betavoltaic future-shock-rider Registered Senior Member

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    These stupid lazy bums as you call us have made our country a great nation. Not from being stupid or lazy. We did it by being smart, innovative, inventive and by working our butts off night and day. My work day is about 16 hours and I run the company.

    You don't become the most powerful nation on the planet by being a bunch of stupid and lazy people.

    Why exactly do you think it is better for everything to even out as you say. Why should our standards be lowered. Why not raise your own standards to that of our own. Maybe then you would have the same standard of living that is enjoyed by the US.

    My family came over from Ireland and Scotland more than 140 years ago. Back then the only way in for us to get here was to be an indentured servant for someone who was rich. Sound familiar.

    Nothing is changed just a lot more crowded now. The crowd has to be managed that is all I am saying. There was not this kind of crowd when my ancestors came over. It is unfortunate that we are not able to accommodate everyone in the world over hear but it is the fact.
     
  17. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    Elbaz

    Why would you even say something like that?? Im not a stupid lazy bum and neither is anyone I know. Talk about stereotyping. I dont think anyone should stereotype a whole nation into 1 thing. We are a very diverse and unique population which Im proud of. Yes, we have some lazy people here that dont want to work, but Im sure country has the exact same problem. I think we should have open borders, but as the events in the past took place, my mind changed. We stress the importance of birth control here, because we are getting overpopulated, so why keep letting tons of people in when we cant control are own population. Im sure Japan or India would feel the same way, if 1,000,000+ people were trying to get into their country every year.

    betavoltaic

    I think you pretty much summed it up in your post. Thanx.


    Groove on
     
  18. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    qwell, well, well, I guess I found the red spot......
    Firstly I never said everyone in america was stupid and lazy. I appologize if I've hurt anyones feelings. I said (or meant rather) is that there are alot of people who act that way because of the things they say concerning immigrants and their tendancies. Is it fair to stereotype immigrants into saying that they are undereducated or poor or all terrorists? I dont think so. And thats what I think alot of you guys are really getting to saying, which is getting on my nerves.

    I cant say I dislike your country, because it really is a nice place for those who get there, but what provoked me in the first place to insult your countries people, was the things that were being said in terms of how foreign people drain the economy and also how they pose security threats. If the real problem is population control, then go for tightening laws (not completely though). But if you want to take away someones right to move freely because of what they can supposedly do to an economy or security, then your pushing nationalism, and thats a place of lose-lose situations.

    Am I completely wrong in my previous post, however, in that nationalism this is creating is a bad thing, and immigration around the world should be as open as possible within reason ? Other than overpopulation, which I'll admit is a very good point, shouldnt doors be kept open for everyone( ie non-criminals )?
     
  19. justagirl Registered Senior Member

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    well your right if we could just figure out how to get those terrorist and criminals to list "terrorist or criminal" on their immigration entry *shrugs* in the mean time there are terrorist that admit they want to throw around dirty nukes and I say close our borders and stop using war as a tool. I sincerely feel islolation is our best choice right now and when other governments of the world step up and stop that shit in their own country maybe we can talk about new immigration laws. Of course thats my humble opinion and Bush doesn't have a track record of checking in with my views.
     
  20. betavoltaic future-shock-rider Registered Senior Member

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    Dealing with Socialist, Communist, and Theocratic Nations

    I think we should have open borders only with those nations that share our ideals. To have open borders in this day and age with every nation is political and economic suicide. If a country is run by Socialist, Communists, or by a Religious State I think that immigration with those countries should be sharply restricted and monitored very closely. That is just the big net, The smaller and tighter net should be an electronic curtain on all of the US borders. We have a lot of this in place already and the trend is likely to continue.

    The US is a large country and it's Northern border is mostly unprotected having Canada as a neighbor is not a very tight seal against infiltration from possible terrorists. Canada does not have much of a police or military infrastructure having the US to call upon for defense and having little crime there is not much need to build up either sector.

    The Mexican border is more controlled having a majority of our military bases in the region and having a customs and INS presence due to very heavy traffic of goods and labor with the Southern region. It is still a problem but we have greater assets protecting that border.

    Control of the border is not sealing the border. It is just better control to maintain a higher standard of security. Students from any of the countries that have a high concentration of anti American sentiment are let in still today but this should be looked at more closely I think as well it should. If the US had better control of it's borders than this war might have been avoided all together.

    The US certainly needed better control of our skies. This would have made a difference as well. A remote activated lockout of the flight controls that can be commanded from the ground as a fail safe might have helped as well. The problem with all of this is that the US tends to relax when not attacked and recoil and strike back when struck. The US does not have a standard for security for our nation that is consistent.
     
  21. Barney_TRubble Banned Banned

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    Justagirl...

    An ostrich sticking its head in the sand is begging for someone to walk up behind and kick it in the bum.
     
  22. kmguru Staff Member

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    And I agree. The work needs to be done on two fronts. Proper domestic integration with severe punishments for hate crimes. And improving quality of life elsewhere so that demand for immigration is reduced to friends and families and special cases.

    It is one of the issues that always bugged me.

    Drug War: Why spend billions of dollars to send people to jail, why not spend that money to create an environment that reduced the need of drugs in the society? In the greatest country on the earth, people should be happy without chemicals....

    Abortion: Why fight the ethical issues? Reduce the cause to begin with.

    Ill feelings towards us: The money we spend in just one year to prevent problems can be used to find the root cause and drastically reduce such activities...

    Trade disparity: Why not use those economic summits to hammer out an equitable commerce so that we do not have a tariff war....

    There may be others. Someone has said: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - or something like that....
     
  23. joemartin1 Registered Member

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    Immigration Policy

    It is a bad idea to let even more people from non-western countries into any westen country. Physics, genetics & human nature don't play the game of politics.......it never has.
    In NYC things have been deteriorating ever since the late 1960's, of course we have our ups & downs...but without doubt the trend is downward. It's a shame to see my city filled with people that don't share western values/culture.......but above all...morals & ethics.....that is the main difference between 'empire builders' & cultures that have contributed almost nothing to mankind in terms of innovations, inventions, power, technology, etc.

    Who invented concrete, ball point pens, sneakers, cars, motorcylces, bicycles, planes, helicopters, utilities, basic indoor plumbing, lightbulbs, TV, radio, telecommunications, etc.?

    Who conquered the skies, land, oceans, goes to the deepest depths of the ocean, artificial satillities (dominating our atmosphere)......heck....who goes beyond this Earth & puts a western countries flag on the moon, beating out other white people...the Russians, who explores other worlds/planets, looks beoyond our solar system?

    The answer is a very unique group of individuals....only a tiny part of our human population....and no....they are not 'multi-cultural' by any stretch of the imiagination.

    After what I have seen in the U.S., being a native New Yorker, 'multi-culturalism' simply means the death of western values/morals/ethics. I am part Colombian, fluent in Spanish, integrated much more w/ Hispanics than Americans because well......there are NO Americans here. The general attitude among the people here is....'We will dominate because this is a democracy and the majority rules'.

    Tough subject, especially when white people don't know when to say 'enough already' and take back what they have built.

    It's a topic that deserves much attention but I just wanted to have a little influence on people that have never experienced 'multiculturalism' at its true nature...after all who else is more Cosmopolitan or 'multiculturalist' than NYC?
     

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