i read a great book for atheists, actually for everyone.

Living Sacrifice: It seems as well as not being able to spell or construct sentances, you are unable to understand simple scientific concepts such as the evolution of life or the expansion of the universe.

As well as you praying for God to open my eyes, I pray that you stick to reading the bible and praying. At least that way, you need not open your mouth often.

 

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Ok.

I spoke out loud and said 'God, look, I have a pack of doubts about whether you exist or not but I want to no longer be in doubt. Take those doubts and ... '

Before I finished the sentence I sensed something above my head. The thing I sensed was like a large silky invisible cloth and it seemed to fall onto my head and settle around my body. As it did so i physically let out like a groan of relief and ended up on the floor lying down. I was afraid yet fascinated. The fear was hurting me though on an iner level and whatever the presence was, it knew I was afraid and it told me not to be afraid. The 'voice' was not a 'voice' but rather a 'will' and as it urged me not to be afraid, I became unafraid.
Tensions within my body that would have been unnoticable under any other circumstances seemed to take flight and leave me. I was then told (although this wasn't a voice thing but more of a will) that I was being washed in the blood of the lamb. This particular phrase meant nothing to me at the time but I was left in no doubt as to the importance of this blood and that without it I would not live because I could not live without it. I remember questioning whether the description was refering to my own blood at which point I was shown that my own blood was being purified through this other blood which the presence refered to as the blood of the lamb.
I should add that this did not make sense to me and the presence did not seem to mind that I did not comprehend but rather saw my lack of comprehension as understandable. I did not feel I had the right to challenge the importance of it. That was a very clear feeling. I genuinley felt that this presence was working in me like a very skilled surgeon who knew what I was far better than I did. The presence was 'all powerful' yet at the same time so incredibly tender and gentle. As the presence seemed to have finished the work it was doing within me I did feel a sense of joy and physically I did feel very refreshed. I remember being glad that the presence was glad and we for a moment saw eye to eye but it was more forehead to forehead if that makes sense, like a mutual knowing. I knew God had made himself known to me and I knew that God knew me. The experience was a little like watching a clockmaker fix something that only he could fix, that no one else would even know where to start.

After the experience I felt very refreshed, like the last 10 years struggle had been washed away. I talked to Christians about my experience and they explained why the blood of the lamb was so important to the Christian faith. they also explained that the Holy Spirit had come upon me because I had been honest with God about my doubts and that I had sought Him from a genuine stand point and that had pleased Him and He had blessed me. They showed me scriptural references to the Holy Spirit and what happened when He came upon believers and the description of it all left me in no doubt that these ancient old texts really had something to say.

I know it was not my imagination because I was a witness the whole time. I was present the whole time. I was fixed to the spot watching the events. I could have employed my imagination if I had so wished to do so, I could have thought about little green men whilst I was getting fixed up but instead I just watched and wondered why this was happening to me.

That presence is never far away.

peace

c20

 

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I am an atheist. Better get that out of the way to begin with.

That book sounds like it's taking far too simplistic an idea and blowing it out of all proportion. "Faith" may be "irrational" but the vast majority of its proponents are pretty rational most of the time about most of their actions. Making a link from religious fervour with the WMD and then presuming that non-faith could be any kind of answer basically forgets the history of the last fifty years, which was never - even in America - a fight between faiths, but it was certainly no less dangerous for that. In fact it was the godless Soviets who were the more dangerous - they actually provoked the Cuban Missile crisis, Kennedy (a Catholic) didn't.

Unlike most people here, I actually accept c20H35N3o's experience at face value. He does not have proof acceptable to us that God is responsible for his experience, and we do not have proof acceptable to us that God (whatever God may be) was not responsible. That is not any basis for belittling C20, scoffing at his intelligence or doubting his sanity. This is exactly why atheists have got such a bad rap!

 

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I knew God had made himself known to me and I knew that God knew me.

That's the part I fail to understand. How do you know it was god and not your imagination? Talking to Christians will only serve to prop-up whatever your experience claims, they'll tell you anything you want to hear, as long as its about god. Just because you 'witnessed' the event does not constitute gods presense either. How can you actually know it was god?

 

Because I know the difference between something I imagine and something that happens outside of my control or will. I was left in no doubt. What more can I say?

peace

c20

 

Because I know the difference between something I imagine and something that happens outside of my control or will.

How? Unless you actually saw/heard/felt/whatever a god do something to you, then it can only be your imagination. And how do you know what god looks/hears/feels/whatever? You are merely speculating, at best, that it was a god and not your imagination.

If it was god, then that experience should be known equally and unequivocally to all.

 

Give me a break! Irrational, immoral, and or other detrimental decisions/actions are made by the world's leaders and citizens, regardless of their belief in a God or not. The harmful behavior and attitudes are not unique to the religious. No one is immune to gullibility, we are all a slave to our own perception.

 

I know what speculation is and this isn't speculation. It is conviction. That's just the way it is.

Matthew 7:7-8 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. (NIV)

I genuinly knocked on the door even if a little clumsily. The fact that I thought no one would be home, did nothing to stop the door from actually opening.

peace

c20

 

yeah well i was looking for proof and i didnt find it. i think that "inner winess" is a synonym for "i fooled myself into believing". i guess we just have different criteria.

 

I read your experience here and I wanted to comment a few things.

First off I prayed to god when I still believed and asked for some sort of sign that would indicated his presence and I recieved nothing. So I suppose I'll just go on being an atheist.

Secondly in your post above you never mentioned how precisely you knew it was a god who gave you these revelations. Honestly you're only making an assumption that it came from a god, and no less a Christian god.

 

LivingSacrifice,

It's not because I don't want to believe it's because I cannot believe in god without releasing my sanity. It would be like believing my chair was a horse, and trying to feed it!

Pure and simple there is no proof that god exists. You cannot deny something you do not believe exists.

Let's just supose I believe what your saying here. Where do you believe the universe came from then?

Yes we are still evolving.

How would this be proof of evolution? What is a half ape anyways?

So this is your theory? Because the world is amazing god must exist? Talk about being illogical.

Don't try and show me that ID theory crap. It's all been debunked so many times over it isn't funny.

I looked and did not find anything.

 

Well i actually find it harder to believe so many people are delusional and hallucinating.

How come we do not all get delusional and hallucinate at random?
Which people are normal?

Are we really to accept all these people are nuts?

No i go with the neurological explanation,that it is a real and physical system created by brain bio-chemistry,it's not simply a delusion or wishful thinking, it is only described as that by "normal" people who lack any understanding of something they have not experienced.

 

Mental Illness is a lot more common then you think. Illnesses are best thought of on a continuum rather than saying someone is ill or not.

There are plenty of mental illnesses society actually thinks of in a positive way. For example someone who has an obsession with their work (and if it's truely benificial to society like a brain sergion for example) is rarely thought of as being mentally ill.

 

however someone who's hears voices in his head is usually deemed, crazy, but a religious person with the same symptom, is not go figure, and some are made saints.
I believe that everybody in the world has some kind of mental querk, but this does not make them dangerous but religion does.
they kill because of these inane beliefs, it's there guiding light, and what so irrational about it, is they believe they are doing good, by killing there fellow man, go figure again.
you only have to read the holy books to see how evil their gods are, and they all follow by example, these imaginary things.
hell they would even kill you or me, because they believe, they would be saving our imaginary souls by doing so.

they are all complete mental cases, we have to somehow irradicate religion from society, and the human mindset.
if you saw someone stick a needle in his arm, you would try to talking out of his self abuse, but religious nuts, are whiping themselves with bushes, cut bit's of the flesh, even setting fire to themselves, etc..
and this is thought of as normal behavior.
if you wish to live a long healthy life, keep away from the religious, as best you can, they are dangerous.

 

I know what speculation is and this isn't speculation. It is conviction. That's just the way it is.

Yes, it is an unshakable belief, we probably already agree on that. But it is a belief based purely on speculation, since there was no way for you to tell whether or not god had done something to you or you simply imagined it. At least, you haven't stated how you knew it was god. You merely had a bunch of feelings and you assumed they were from god, or you simply wanted them to be god.

Again, there is nothing you've said that has any indication that gods were afoot. It's all in your mind.

 

you are taking the argument out of context. everyone knows that there are people who are irresponsible of their own accord without needing a boost from faith based decision making. harmful behavior happens sometimes, its just a fact. what i was talking about is the role that faith plays in unrealistic decision making on a political stage. osama bin laden is a more than average man whose destructive behavior is driven by his faith and nothing else. he has even admitted that he has no personal grudge against his so called enemies but carries out his actions for the sake of islam. george w. bush is similarily deluded by faith in the christian religion and though his decisions in the foreign policy arena do not always reflect what many people consider to be the accepted christian "ethos" of turn the other cheek...etc. , he has characterized nations with policies in opposition to US will as an "axis of evil" while stating that the hand of god guides his actions. in addition to this, the dangers of his "faith" are reflected in many domestic policy decisions ranging from his choice of supreme court nominees to his positions on faith based initiatives, abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, and legalized euthanasia. these are only two leaders amongst a large group whose decisions regularly effect the lives of billions of people, and almost everyone in this group purports to take their "faith" very seriously and thinks it plays a serious role in the way that they make decisions. few, if any of them are blatantly atheistic. most world conflict, even at this time in history can be broken down into a clash of faiths. the arab isreali conflict is a prime example. so is the india-pakistan example. possibly the only ones in modern times that have not been overtly motivated by religious faith are wwi, vietnam and korea. i have excluded wwii because if it had not been for hitlers "faith" that the germans were chosen by god to create and perpetuate a master race on earth, wwii may not have ever even happened. the absurdity of allowing faith to play a part in serious decisions that require deep levels of critical and empirical analysis is extremely dangerous. im not talking about some drunk that gets behind the wheel and accidently kills someone, that happens often enough without the assitance of faith. what im talking about is when our president sees himself as an agent of gods will and then proceeds to make decisions that result in massive restrictions of freedom for people in our country and massive body counts in other countries. i hope you can see that more clearly now.

 

living sacrifice.

are you named after a really bad christian metal band?

you athiests are funny, its not that theres no evidence of god, there is tuns, lots of it everywhere, its just that u DONT WANT TO BELIEVE. u think u have it all in ur puny minds, but u have to realise that i fight for a cause greater than myself, u are caught up in ur selfish ways, self-indulgence, u are caught up in materialistic things, the ways of this world, u are content with what u have, you dont want to change, so u deny god. you are blinded, caught up in your pride, u have to have it all in your head, but god is soo much more than anything we as humans can comprehend. christianity is a relationship not a religeon, its not about works in order to gain eternal life in heaven. its gods gift to us. he accepts us as we are.

give me evidence that there is a world other than this one, and then we can begin to discuss the lack of evidence for god, an afterlife, and arguments against religious belief in general. its not a matter of not wanting to believe. its a matter of not believeing due to lack of evidence, whether that evidence appears in physical form, or as a type of mental awareness. i do not accept the argument that god reveals himself to those who can accept it/him into their lives, i think thats just a fancy way of saying, "we have no idea why we're the only ones that know about this god, so were going to make a guess about it to attempt to legitimize our absurd belief". i submit to you that you take religious belief seriously because you WANT TO BELIEVE.

some scientists, imean they say we evolved from apes, and that
the universe came from a bigbang, which came from nothing,
which goes against the laws of physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction
so therefore every reaction cames from an equal and opposite action
how can a big bang be a reaction of nothing? nothing caused it, there is no action to
cause the big bang. does that make sence

first of all the big bang theory does not state that the universe was made out of nothing. it is a model that attempts to explain the creation of the universe from the time that it was 1/100 of a second old. as for preexisting conditions, there is much speculation but not a lot of ways of getting evidence, assuming it still exists after about 6 billion years. and as for its ability to explain existing conditions in scientific terms, it goes very far in substantiating things like why space is expanding, leftover or "relic" radiation that exists in space, the origin of light elements, and a framework for understanding the formation of galaxies. the bible doesnt really say much about that except for "oh yeah, god did it." by the way im not sure if you know this or not, but the same laws of physics that apply on earth dont always apply in space. so yeah, i think it makes sense, at least a lot more sense than the alternative explanation, but if another theory were to come around that had good solid support i would take that into consideration too.

thay say we evolved from apes, we arnt still evolving are we,
are theere any half apes half humans walking around? or any superhumans? there SO called proof of this
is a tiny fraction of a skull they have, which is so called to "be millions of years old"
from this fraction they have constructed an apeman skull. pfft.

we are more ginetically incomon to pigs,

who told you this absurd lie?
there is more than a fraction of a skull that constitutes evidence of evolution from ape to man.
as part of the theory of evolution we see that there are factors that play a role in its speeding up or slowing down. homogeneity among populations has a role in speeding up the process of evolution because in that way evolving gene traits are continually perpetuated in one small population until that particular group (after many many generations) all exhibit the same trait. the human population at this time no longer exists in small isolated groups that have limited contact with other groups of people. our population has become incredibly heterogeneous, necessitating many many more generations of breeding in evolutionary traits before a majority of people actually exhibit them. what you think of as the end of evolution may just be its extension or its slowing down due to population factors.
we do not have more genetically in common with pigs. the human genome is approximately 98% similar to that of a chimpanzee. however there are other animals that do exhibit some human traits. pigs for example have similar skin and lymph systems, and their insulin is usable as a substitute for humans with diabetes. dolphins exhibit some of the ability to communicate with each other and form heirarchical social constructs, much in the way humans do, but pigs do not do this. however the fact remains that primates are the most similar in physical composition and approximations of human behaviors.

this world is soo aamazing and sophisticated, imean everything u can think of, is made up
of atoms and molecules, which fit together in perfect harmony, life is truly beutifull
when u look at nature you see beuty,our earth is positioned just in the exact right spot
in our galaxy to sustain human life. YET the most AmAzing thing out of all this is US
HUman beings,We HAVE SOO MUCH POTENTIAL, to learn, to grow, to love, we have feelings,
emotions, a concience. anyone of those things itself is the most amazing thing there is.
to be honest its illogical to believe that there is no god
god is the only logical explanation for us
He loves us, life is beutiful, god is life, we are from him.

i dont know what to say to this, its more of an argument from emotion and belief than anything else. you may see beauty and love as evidence of god, but i see them as evidence of the creative capacity of the human mind.

we have to take teh first step in seeking god, u cant prove god isnt real.
but ucan prove his reality if u want to. if u take the first step out and try to find god
and put away your pride, trust me if you look hardenough u will find him.

thats ridiculous. many people have sought god and not found it. many people have asked for gods assitance and been hopelessly abandoned. you cant prove god isnt real, because you cant prove that anything isnt real, especially if it lacks any definite characteristics. all you can do is recognize that there is no proof whatsoever that a god or many gods exist, and then if you want to believe after that, wait for some.