Wow... Prime example of the ignorance that is commonly associated with neo-conservative Christians. The funny thing is that you wonder why there are so many that are trying to remove the words "Under God" from the pledge that is recited by our children in the public school systems? Thank you for this excellent display of stupidity... I especially enjoyed the use poor of grammar (where). I hope that you remain childless... the world is a much better place without you further contaminating the gene pool.
Well i want to give my opinion I am 18, i go to high school every monday have to say the pledge, the whole school I am the only one in my class that sits down, I wont even stand up for it. I have been able to restrain from peer pressure and even the teacher has put pressure on me to get up. I wont say the pledge cause "Under god" is in it and i think its best that it does get removed not just for people that dont believe in a higher being but also for all the other religions that dont believe in the christian god cause everyone knows what they mean by "under god" is the "christian god"
Have you even read my posts in this thread? "The funny thing is that you wonder why there are so many that are trying to remove the words "Under God" from the pledge that is recited by our children in the public school systems?" I wonder ??? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! READ MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I AM AGAINST GOD BEING IN THE PLEDGE. "Thank you for this excellent display of stupidity" I hope you feel very embarassed? Hey delete your posts and i will delete this one ok. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! All Praise The Ancient Of Days
************* M*W: If you are an American going to an American school, I believe you should stand when the pledge is recited. Whether you recite it or not doesn't matter. After all, unless you're in a private school, your education is being funded by American funds. Since you don't even want to stand during the pledge, you might be more comfortable in a foreign or parochial school other than Christian. However, I do agree with you about the "under God" clause. During all my years in public school, "under God" was said. I don't remember anyone balking at it because, in those days, we just complied with what was asked of us. Further, we lost some 25 classmates in Viet Nam, and I think of them everytime I have the opportunity to say the pledge today. It was a different and difficult time then. Usage of the "under God" clause pertains more to the strength of the unification of the USA and not to a specific higher power. Even the founding fathers didn't embrace Christian values. Why should we? "Under God" was added after the Korean Conflict during the "Cold War." I think it should suffice to say "one nation, indivisible," but the "under God" may have been added to reinforce our unity and strength in an uncertain world. I believe "God" to be a generic higher-power and not the Christian god. Although my generation arose from the soldiers, sailors and airmen coming home post-war, we were taught to take pride in our country and to protect it. Such a small price to say the pledge for those who died for it. Since it's been said that "there are no atheists in fox holes," I don't mind including the "under God" for those we left behind.
I find his courage mis-applied. As an American the message I would receive from his action is that he doesn't support the country. As he is still a child IMO, I can forgive him. If he was a fully fledged and educated adult then I might petition to have him kicked out of the country.
Why the fuck should I stand and respect a nation that does not respect me? Why should I pledge my allegiance to a nation that has become corrupt and decrepit, a shadowy memory of it's original ideals? Why?
Lets reverse that statement, Hapsburg. If you show no respect and loyalty to the nation and refuse to think of yourself as part of it, why should it owe anything to you? Why shouldn't it just class you as foreign to itself or, better yet, a traitor? Doesn't it owe service only to those who in turn serve it, as is covered in feudalist law? Pardon my playing devil's advocate.
************* M*W: Why do you think our nation does not respect you? I think we should show respect for our country regardless of the state of the union. Our country is only as good as its people. It is up to us to make it better. When I was your age, I wore your shoes. The statement of our generation was "Don't trust anyone over 30." When I turned 30, I couldn't understand why I was one of the untrustable ones. I gave my time and my life to the USAF in a MASH unit in Nam. I would do it again if they needed me. My country respected me enough to put me on the front lines to make a better world for people like you. Allegience to one's country is infective. You're lucky we no longer have the draft. That was a normal part of what my generation expected, and we lived with it. Once the draft was gone, young people lost respect for our nation. I believe in bringing it back, but anyone who doesn't want to go shouldn't go, because their heart is not in it. We've lost pride in our homeland. We need to regain that, and if it takes repetitively saying the Pledge of Allegience in school, then that's what it takes. If you think this country is so bad, you should try living in Iran or Iraq or even Western Europe. They haven't progressed beyond the 1930s and 1940s. This is no way to live. The American Way is the best of all possible worlds -- pledge or no pledge. I would hope that if you were sitting next to me at a ball game, and the national anthem started to play and you didn't stand up, I'm afraid I would jerk you out of you seat. You may not respect your homeland, but I do, and if you cannot stand during the pledge or national anthem, you need not attend functions that display it. And you might end up sitting next to a veteran who risked his/her life to give you the freedom to not respect your country.
once the draft was -gone- people lost respect for the nation? you clearly were not paying any attention to the lack of respect people had during the Vietnam war--in spite of, indeed BECAUSE of the draft. also: it is horribly pretentious to assume that you, or any other veteran, are somehow responsible for my freedom. i have respect for what they have done--but you're kidding yourself if you think that they made me free. most of the ones that could perhaps lay claim to that title (and even then they were merely a millimetre of the blade that defended this nation) are now very old indeed, if they live still. you were a grunt in an army of grunts. you were one of thousands of others doing the same thing. how did you, specifically, enable me to be free? furthermore. even if you have done something worthy of respect, this does not somehow mean that the country is deserving of respect. congratulations, you did something that i would be unwilling to. this doesn't change the fact that i don't respect the government as it stands. nor should it.
Huh. Like you said, the laws of physics are broken again. I agree with you. We fucked up sometime after WW2, stopped being the good nation we were, and became far too involved in global politics...the whole communism thing, you know...meh.
I would argue that because CK is going to a public and American school he absolutely has the right to sit down during the PoA. Freedom of speech includes the right to abstain from speech just as freedom of religion includes the freedom from religion. The idea that you have a right to say something does not take away my right to walk away from your presentation, shaking my head in disbelief of your ideas. As I understand it, several times in the past the courts have ruled that because public education is mandated, the students are a "captive audience" and therefore any mandates by public schools are bound the same way other government entities mandates are bound. Meaning, the school entities cannot infringe on the individual rights of the students. Standing during the pledge is a part of saying the pledge itself. People do not sit at their desks. However, because of CKs situation he is prevented from walking away shaking his head in disbelief. CKs sitting during the pledge is also a freedom of speech issue as it is also a reflection of the right to free assembly, meaning he has a right to abstain from this assembly. He is exibiting peaceful dissent from the whole of the mandated pledge by his actions. This example also shows that while some people claim that if you dont want to say the pledge you can abstain, its clear there really isnt a tolerance for such methods in CKs experience. CK states he has been pressured by both classmates and his teacher for doing what is claimed by the pro-PoA side as an option for those who do not share the same idealisms reflected during the recital of this pledge. CK is an atheist and is partaking in several of our rights with his example during his mandated PoA. He is "standing up" for his rights, and everyone elses when he sits during this controversial school requirement. He has also drawn attention to this matter for his teacher, and his classmates who may or may not have ever encountered someone who feels this way about the phrase "under God", and hopefully, they will take the time to reflect on this matter from a point of view other than their own. Contrary to whats been said: http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/about.php
I would hope that you would have respect for the person who paid his money to see ball being played and his/her right to participate or not participate in what is essentially a side note of the actual event they paid to see. Should you ever follow through on such an act, I would hope the end result would be your being removed from this public arena. You do not ever violate another person physically, for the crime of "just sitting there", no matter what your privately held beliefs/past works are.
I agree with the bulk of your assertion and would myself assert the biggest part of the problem stems from there being little to no engagement between the people and the government. This has turned a society which at some point was inter-dependent into a very counter-dependent one.
************* M*W: For the record, I wasn't a grunt, I was in the USAF Medical Service. Not only did I pay close attention to what was going on in the 60s, I was a product of the 60s. And, no, there was nothing I personally did to ensure your freedom. Maybe you should ask some of the grunts who with my help were able to return home to their loved ones.
************* M*W: Let me clarify: I may have my opinions and reverences, but if I were actually at a ball game and the punk sitting next to me didn't get up, I certainly wouldn't lay a hand on him, even though I may question why he didn't stand up. This is still America, and if some people here don't want to pay allegience, they should leave. Ultimately, I understand the parameters of freedom. If the punk sitting next to me had no respect for America, the flag, or the team, maybe he should be attending a soccer game in Krzygstan where he wouldn't be expected to show reverence for America. And these punk kids will be running our government when we're old.
so where the hell do you get the idea that the draft somehow increased public concern? people hated the draft. still do, in fact. i would do everything in my power to dodge the draft if it affected me. so you were only indirectly involved--you probably helped 'fight for my freedom' in vietnam less than your average taxpayer did. congratulations. and by the way, Vietnam was in no way threatening our freedom. nor was Korea. nor was Iraq. nor were any of the other countless wars going on. allow me to explain to you one of the key principles of a democracy. democracy is founded on the idea that if the people disapprove of the government, they have the right to dissent. they can sit down, cross their arms, and say no. (here is the part where people point out that we are not a democracy, but a republic--which is a representative democracy. cheque, please.) so long as they abide by its rules and pay its taxes, there is no obligation in a democracy to owe it some special allegiance. it is, in fact, encouraged not to accept the status quo. 'our country, right or wrong' is the worst possible belief to hold. and if i think this country is corrupt, i am not going to pledge any support for it until it has ceased to be corrupt.
