What is Freedom?

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by lixluke, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    Dear Gekkou, it has taken me many decades of hard, single minded work to come to the 'perspective' and 'understanding' that I presently 'enjoy'. Don't say 'out there' like it is a 'bad thing'! *__- Any 'perspective' so hard 'won' will always seem 'out there' to all but other dedicated 'psychonauts' and metaphysicians (metaphysicists) that have travelled long and far in the search for 'Truth' and understanding.

    Let me give you a bit of the 'flavor' as I can. Please give effort to understanding. You do not, of course, have to agree with me, nor adopt what I say into your 'understanding'. I am simply sharing 'my perspective as I 'see' it, as I 'live' it. And please realize that this will not be a major spirito-scientific treatise will all references and bibliography. All that happy crappy does exist though.. This is just a very incomplete crude glimpse, so, please, bear with me...

    First, Chaos is not 'disorder'. It is not 'order'. It is 'pregnant potential' in the moment of greatest instability and greatest possibility. The Hindus call it the 'undifferentiated potential' (Bindhu), the Void, long before the Quantum 'gods' uncovered this understanding in their own inimical way, this absolute of instability.

    In Chaos, there are possibility waves, probability waves. 'Waves' of seemingly infinite potential, with no 'existence'. These 'waves' must be touched by consciousness to subsequently 'collapse' into one of many possible 'realities', such as a 'quark', lepton, proton or even a banana or a dollar bill... There are those who know no better that will vehemently and ignorantly claim that this is only true on the 'subatomic particlular' level. This is not the case. It is consciousness alone that brings our omniverse into 'existence' for us. QM has said that it is Consciousness that is the Ground of all Being! Of course, we have heard this throughout the millennia... The 'understanding' of Science is finally catching up. Western minds can now, also, partake of the new 'understanding of reality'. Getting Western emotions and ego to release the current medieval anachronistic concepts and constructs of the mind is another matter. I posit a 'stupid' gene, probably survival related and present in one degree or another in all. *__-

    Choice enters the picture with awareness, mind and consciousness. The magicians, progenitors of the scientists, had found that there are points of greatest instability and least probability where a person's 'Will' can greatest 'affect' the shape of the 'reality' of the collapsing 'wave'. To manifest 'Will' into the 'material world' by 'volition' alone.

    "It just means patterns can not be found or circumstances can not be predicted."

    It means that 'patterns' are created from this 'sea' of infinite potential. And yes, with practice, circumstances can most assuredly be predicted. Not only is this my personal subjective anecdotal for what it's worth experience, but this is being empirically evidenced in many diverse places.

    Chaos is the 'archetypal sea' from which we 'create' the 'dreamstuff' from which our entire 'hallucination' (dream) of 'life' and 'self' springs.

    At this level of 'reality', choices are infinite as are possibilities.

    Oh yes, very much a factor. What is a fact here is a fact. What is not a 'fact' can be 'altered/created' into 'facthood'. For example, before the 60s, the dark side of the moon did not exist. The first man to see it and describe it to others, by that touch of consciousness, brought it into 'being'. Before, it was just Chaotic 'possibilities' and 'probabilities'. Once 'observed', it becomes 'real'. Touched by consciousness. So, in a way, concensus 'reality' is a factor in the equation. Consciousness can 'touch' the visible side of the moon and not do much but observe the already existant consensus 'mental construct'. One cannot 're-create' that carrot in your hand, but one can certainly have been instrumental in 'affecting' the dark side of the moon in its first 'observance'. The observer affects, is part of (one with), the observed. QM. There are also aspects of the 'visible' side of the moon that have never been observed... sooo... perhaps they will find a 'Coke' machine someday?

    I can see what you are referring to. The 'evidence of our senses tells us this much. And thought must certainly be controlled. Not easy, but necessary.
    But our sensory 'evidence' is an 'illusion' within the mind. A dream. All we can know is what is within mind. We can never know if there is actually an 'out there', out there! It is impossible to ever know such a thing. I lean towards the hypothesis that there is no out there out there. Otherwise, why would there be all this 'out there' in here? It is by consciousness (and unconscious) interacting with Chaos that we create the 'out there' to interact with and play in, in here.

    And the moron who kicked the rock in refutation of 'subjectivity' has been thoroughly refuted. Basically, he is relying on more sensory 'evidence'. Actually, it is physically impossible to ever really 'touch' anything. The 'electrons' (negative charges) in our body repel the 'electrons' in the 'rock' and we never actually can touch anything directly. We get pretty close before we are repelled. This 'repulsion' is what we feel as 'object'. Of course, the 'repulsion' might simply be the 'product' of the 'possibility wave's' collapse when we are 'seeing' the rock to kick. A few photons, a bit of a 'charge' and BINGO, a 'rock'... It really doesnt take much!

    Woah!! You must be a perfect being to be able to judge (perceive) 'perfection'. Is that your experience? I'd be happy to accept it if it is. I see nothing but 'perfection'.

    Well, you know what I think of an 'external world'.
    I find all the little exciting moments that Chaos might contribute to the mix to be all part of the 'perfection'. Could we ever 'evolve' from a position of comfort and ease? Perhaps we ourselves provide the 'special horrors' to 'nudge' ourselves out of our 'ruts' and 'grow/evolve' a bit?

    "There is serenity in Chaos.
    Seek ye the Eye of the Hurricane."


    Remember, this is just a view of my present perspective of 'life', my 'reality' that I daily (dream) 'live'.

    Also remember;
    "All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense."

    And, a last interesting bit from the Principoeia Discordia;

    So, what greater 'freedom' than this, to Create one's 'universe'? One's 'reality'. Deliberately, creating, tending, enjoying...

    I ask you to 'believe' nothing.

    Just enjoy the ride!

    *__-
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2005
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  3. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Next time a beautiful girl walks by try not to look.
     
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    my queston got ignored...so i'll try again:
    say you have a disease. you have tried all the medical people prescribeand they dont ease your dis-ease. what DOES is a natrual plant yo can grow called the cannabis plant. but you are not allowed to do so, cuase you are not free to do so. now that isn't freedom is it?
     
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  7. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    I guess you can't live in a social community without sacrificing your ''freedom''. If there would be such a thing....
     
  8. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    yes. this is what they teacxh in the schools. but it all rests on whether they have indoctrinated you to believe that!
     
  9. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Not really...it is pure biology. If you continue to brake the rules of a society, you will be trown out.

    That said. A minority within a society could have freedom. But if all had freedom there wouldn't be a stable society.
     
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    that doesn't make sense at all. are you tryting to say we have a stable society now?
     
  11. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    of course...biologically speaking yes...
     
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    what does 'biologically speaking' mean

    what do you mean?
     
  13. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    686
    Freedom is 'options', choices.
    The more 'choices' that (you believe) you have, the more 'freedom'?
    The rich have 'material freedom', the poor do not.
     
  14. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    3,058
    Imagination is a kind of freedom! Lucid dreams too...

    Freedom is to be able to do things without consequences. The natural way is freedom. Much that we do limits our freedom since we make a habit that has bad consequences. We should do things that have good consequences, make a habit of it, a way of life! Then that to me, would equal freedom. Why do people think doing good things is a limit? It's only natural!
     
  15. Gekkou Registered Member

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    12
    First, what? Ok, chaos is just a word and I guess you can use it as a flavor of icecream if you wish, but when you start off defining it as not having anything to do with order, that is to say that you are throwing out my definition entirely (as I see it). I read a book on chaos, and I think I understand the basic principal. That's the limit to my "authority". Anyway, one thing the book did show is that many times where there was thought to be chaos, there was shown to be "order" at a very tiny scale. Bizzare, yes? Physics seems to also happen the opposite way to those who study it (seeming disorder at a tiny scale, but orderable on a macroscopic scale).

    Another thing: in defense of physicists, if their way is inimical it is because they work very hard following rigorous standards of validation which are largely ignored by the rest of the public.

    Really the problem with people like you and me is that we are not actually scientists, so that we jump to conclusions because things "sound good", or so I'm inclined to believe in spite of your protests of hard, single minded work to the contrary.

    Back to the fray...
    Yes, infinite potential is one way one could describe "perfect" chaos or infinite entropy. Therefore why do you acknowledge that and also say "with practice, circumstances can most assuredly be predicted"? Either there is some amount of pattern or order, following of rules, underlying any system or object, or there is a place where "actual" ramdomness exists. Random equates with not being able to predict. Otherwise, it seems you are saying that humans in some way exist outside of or unaffected by the rest of Nature. I don't believe that for a second. I don't believe in metaphysics, there is only physics. In this context I mean that everything exists in one continuum, hence the uni in universe. Of course, I could be wholly mistaken. But it seems to me that if I am it is because humans don't actually have any intelligence just the same as grass does not have any intelligence. Is the universe infinitely complex? Could be. I'll have to admit that just on the face of the question "when did the universe begin?", being wholly incomprehensible, and yet inescapable.

    One statement to close off this particular trend of thinking: spuriousmonkey: "Next time a beautiful girl walks by try not to look." - thank you!

    One statement to close talking endlessly using everyone's terms against them and making up your own to sound smart - in the end if you don't "actually" accomplish something you are full of ***. What did the ancients do that was so smart other than pave the way for the present? Thus, why talk about them as though they were some kind of ultimate authority of wisdom? I know (or so they say) humans have been about the same biologically and thus to an extent intelligently as now for several thousand years or more, but to call upon the stories they made up to deal with their ignorance as some kind of authority of wisdom is a practice that is as ancient and decrepit as the gods half this world bows down to every day. (half in the sense of one way of looking at things)

    I think I need to go check out the ACTUAL science forums now.
     
  16. Gekkou Registered Member

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    Yes, it is so obviously natural that people feel they need to point out the reverse of that lest we should forget the incompleteness of it.
     
  17. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    You are free to grow the plant. You are free to process it. You are free to partake of the processed product. You are free to be arrested. You are free to be fined or jailed. What your question neatly illustrates is that all freedom has a price. Freedom is not free. That is one of half a dozen profound philosophical truths.
     
  18. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    686
    The first part of my response... Is this whole thing going to be like this? Are you trying to understand me?

    Yes, your definition is not relevent here as it was I who brought up the subject and the term 'Chaos'. I have studied the implications of this 'just a word' for decades so it appears that I might have a 'different understanding' than you do. You really don't seem to be interested in understanding, but just arguing. Nik, nik, niking over everything and making no effort at understanding. Why waste my time? Entertainment? What kind of idiotic nonsense in saying that it is just a word and then proceeding to argue it from your ignorance?

    Well excuuuuuuuse the fuk outta me for that ignorance remark. You read a book and think that you understand its basic 'principle'. (a 'principal' is the head of a school') What book, by the way? Perhaps I read it? Perhaps I wrote it?

    Then it behooves you to listen carefully when I speak.

    Either you misunderstood, or the book was 'poor'. There is no 'order' in Chaos. There is NOTHING in Chaos beyond 'potentials and possibilities'.

    Huh?

    Chaos at the 'basic level', apparent order macroscopically.

    You don't need to defend physicists, they are just comming into the 'light'. Just pay attention for the next ten years and see if the 'new paradigm' that they will present doesn't ring a bell.

    Actually, I am.

    You speak for yourself.
    Why not simply admit your ignorance in this, my area of 'expertise', and learn something. You already know everything? Like to argue, no matter about what? If Einstein was on this site, speaking here, you would be arguing with him also. Sounds like a juvenile ego out of control to me...

    Hon, you were never in the 'fray'.

    Well, thats the way the QM physicists, the metaphysicists, the mystics, the 'enlightened', me, and anyone else on the 'cutting edge' of thought on the subject. But I'm not asking you to 'believe', particularly not on 'celebrity endorsement'!

    Why do you ask a question and then proceed to answer it for yourself? You already know what you think...
    The short answer; If I can, by the touch of consciousness, materialize a 'chicken' out of the Chaos, than I can predict 'eggs' and 'clucks'! Capisce? Don't get hung on the words, I could have used 'lepton' as well... We all know what a chicken and the allusion still holds.

    No patterns or rules, these are artificial concepts with no meaning at the 'level' being discussed.

    Dropping the balls down the board with all the nails sticking through it, to the bottom. The balls bounce and fall in individually unpredictable ways, but the final bell shaped curve of the 'mass of balls' can be predicted.

    Sigh... Which part of your dream at night is more real than another part? Humans and the rest of the omniverse are all ONE. No place where one 'thing' ends and another begins. Thinking otherwise is delusion.

    That you would utter such an absurd statement tells me that I am wasting my time. You might as well say that you don't 'believe' in mathematics, philosophy, astronomy.. Try looking up the definition of metaphysics (and physics) as you obviously havent a clue other than as an 'anathema of your faith'! What you learned in high school science is all nonsense now.

    No one believes this anymore. Hence the 'omni' and 'meta' in omniverse and metaverse.

    Not 'mistaken', but arguing from antique concepts no longer held by 'thinkers'.

    Hahahaha... Ahh, you are rich!! So, you are saying that if you don't understand, it is because humanity in total is devoid of intelligence like the grass that you presume to paint with the same brush?? Hahahahahaha... is this arrogance and denial with sprinkles?? Hahahahaha... I am feeling really foolish continuing here with you... But, sometimes, I am a fool.. Hahahahahah...

    Define 'infinite'. Poor word. No meaning. How about 'really' complex? Your universe is as complex as you wish it to be. Or as simple. Physists bring their 'particles' into existence by the very act of looking for them. The dream can be a 'complex' as you like.

    YOUR universe 'began' when you first became conscious of it.

    Hahahahaha... Monkey had shown me that he(?) is clueless regarding what I am discussing. Your agreement with his statement, finding value there, indicates the same of you. Not that you haven't expressed your arrogant cluelessness a dozen times to me already.. I didn't respond to that expression of cluelessness from Monkey because I am not able to make his state of 'understanding' any different than what it is. I would have to mentor him for years to 'bring him up to speed'. The work is his/yours.. I did mine. And you argue with me? Thats ok though.. but, between the arguements, I hope that you do a bit of 'thinking' too.
    Perhaps, through the egoic juvenile arrogance of youth, there is still hope that 'thought' might evolve in you, though, I have seen no evidence as of yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2005
  19. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    I quite understand that you don't understand what you actually are.
     
  20. Fafnir665 You just got served. Registered Senior Member

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    Theres a science to that...

    I cant find the formula, but the time you stare varies proportionally to the amount of time since your last orgasm, and wether or not it was self induced. This goes along with how well you can concentrate, and what time of release you got from the other party, if one was involved...
     
  21. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    686
    Looking or not,
    is all the same,
    she only exists within your brain.
    If you like, you can
    play the game,
    but to take it seriously
    will make you insane!

    "There is serenity in Chaos,
    Seek ye first the Eye of the Hurricane."
     
  22. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Freedom is never free.
     
  23. SoLiDUS OMGWTFBBQ Registered Senior Member

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    I'll take another stab at this question...

    Freedom is being able to live on other people's work efforts without producing anything of value yourself. How's that ?
     

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