Challenge from the Learner

Well horseman42, if you just read my post, you know the one that’s like 8 pages full of nifty little tidbits, there is no need for me to put statistics and odds, because if you just read you would automatically know that the impossibilities are quite obvious. As for being spoon fed, I tell you when I was spoon fed I was an atheist, and a hater of God. I first started out by just looking for something to use, to deny the truth written on my heart, all for the sake of being liberal, but when I did much sin to the point of complete shame, sitting desolate in my sin like a harlot who has been violated from anything and every thing, then I searched for answers and found more questions, until I found Truth, and my eyes where opened. I was blind, but now I see. What do you want me to do? Is it my desire to keep you in the dark? Jesus said; "this is the judgment, a Light has come into the world and men love darkness rather that Light because there deeds where evil, he who does evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, least his deeds be exposed." Which makes me wonder, what are you hiding from?

 

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M*W: "Atheism" means "lacking belief in a god or gods." Lacking belief in a god or gods does not set the framework for a religion. Atheists worship nothing, but they have a strong desire to live right and do right in their lives. We follow no rites nor rituals.
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M*W: No, this is not a "religious statement." Atheism is not a religion. Atheism has no deity, no creator, it is not supernatural, has no dying demigod savior, no salvation, no holy book, no heaven, no hell nor other supernatural location (limbo or paradise), no original sin nor fall of humanity. We believe in respecting and caring for everything in creation. We do not spread lies, we speak the truth.
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M*W: Then you don't know many people. Atheists don't hate something that doesn't exist.

 

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Just one verse in the Bible can give sufficient proof that God exists.

Let's forget their query about the existence of God, Jeff. It's already finished and christians already proved to them as you can itemize this from http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/does-god-exist-c.htm

Let us focus our attention to their accusation towards the God of gods as they knew Him being evil and not good. :bugeye:

 

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You are talking simple nonsense. To not have a belief in a god or gods is about as religious as not having a belief in Lenny the leprechaun. For us to be even recognised as 'atheists', someone had to posit the claim that a god or gods exist - a claim to which we have no belief in - much like Lenny the leprechaun.

Then they were not 'atheists' so to speak. An atheist does not believe in a god or gods and thus cannot be non-existant being haters. While they can argue the case from your side, (i.e if you stated Lenny the leprechaun kills kids on weekends, a non-lenny believer could state that such a being would be considered 'evil'), but they still would have no belief in Lenny.

You really don't seem to know much about a subject that you are hopelessly trying to pretend to be clued up on. Please, do not bother posting again until you have taken the time to learn the subject matter. Thank you.

Actually it can't, and I shall quickly explain why using your own book..

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So you see, there is no way you can 'prove' anything, for god has blinded us from seeing it. The only possible way us unbelievers could become believers would be if god personally made it happen. While I hate to upset you, you are completely worthless in the grand scheme of things. Everything and anything you say regarding god is inherently meaningless to an unbeliever and there's nothing you can do to change that because your god made it that way.

All your preaching, all your religious website links, all your time is for nought.. for god blinded our minds from seeing it.

Your job as someone who attempts to convert people has now come to an abrupt end - unless you happen to specifically like wasting your time?

You are useless and the bible is useless. The only way to change me from being an atheist is if god personally wanted to 'un-blind' my mind.

The inescapable conclusion is that I am an atheist because god wants me to be.

For once I would ask that you muster the courage it takes to be honest, (with yourself if nobody else)..

While you will often hear atheists and non-religious people say that jesus was wise, and loving, and indeed a great man, (although not a godly entity), you will never hear a religious man point out that god has indeed slaughtered many humans that did not deserve slaughtering in such style.

If you are going to be honest you have to appreciate that the bible holds not only peachy clean stuff that you constantly spew out, but a lot of shit that you seem more content to just sweep under the carpet in the hopes that nobody will notice, (you included). If we're going to talk about the bible and the god of that bible, it is only pertinent to accept that we must be thorough.

The fact is that you all despise Hitler because he killed millions of jews while bowing down to god for killing even more. While you can argue that killing his creation is his express right, that in no way concludes that he is by definition: "good".

From a biblical perspective your god has killed more humans than any other being in history - I think it about time you find the courage to acknowledge that biblical fact. From there we can then debate the moral aspects of human annihilation.

 

Thanks Jeff for the list of interesting animals and your hastily supplied, presumptory conclusions. Of course, the animals you listed are not quite the mystery you propose them to be. Even if they were the argument merely boils down to an argument from ignorance and is thus logically invalid. But the main error you commit is as follows:

The answer is No.

The fact that you equate evolution with mere chance only demonstrates that you have no idea what Evolution is about. Darwin did not propose the theory of Chance but the theory of Natural Selection which is an extraordinarily powerful process. Mutation (what you are referring to as chance even though most of it is not strictly a random process) only provides the raw material. Natural Selection then filters this raw material resulting in the order and complexity that you mistake for intelligent design.

~Raithere

 

I'm totally butting in, but wanted to offer my two cents...

I say that the earth existed in the "beginning".

The beginning of what? The beginning of the Bible...a recorded "history"...in the most shallow sense.

It "was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

No one can say what had taken place on the earth prior to this, from a Biblical standpoint.

And, it sounds as if the earth and just about everything on it will be destroyed in Revelations, and then repopulated. So doesn't that offer a possibility or even suggest that it's been near destroyed before and repopulated? What did God say to Adam and Eve? "To go forth and replenish the earth".

replenish - to replace used items; to restock depleted items or material.


Considering what words like infinity and eternity and omnipresent mean, doesn't it seem a bit short-sighted to assume that the Bible encompasses the entire history of mankind or creation? I believe that we are told exactly what we need to know, but that you'd have to be an idiot to think that we are told everything there is to know...not in this life anyway. No way.

And the bottom line is this. I've always appreciated science because of it's objectivity....and math too. I love law. And....I've had God interact with me in such a way that I can in no way possibly deny His existence and direct involvement in my life. So....I know that God and His word, and science can in fact be reconciled. I don't claim to know how, and honestly, I'm not sure if I really care at this point. Not that I wouldn't want to know, mind you...it's just that it seems kind of trivial somehow, in light of this spiritual interaction. You know Him and it's like, He's got it all under control, what do I care? I'm just blessed to be alive and to know Him.

And, God has in fact interpreted scripture to me personally...revealed prophecy even. And I'm telling you that there is no way in hell I could have ever anticipated, by intellectualizing, or theorizing...I don't care if I had a degree in theology, or was a monk for God's sake. There is nothing that could have prepared me for what was revealed to me in His word by the Holy Spirit. Nothing in this world takes the place of His Spirit. The Spirit is the author and the interpreter. The only true interpretation, that can not be anticipated, not in the wildest dreams of the flesh. That's been my experience anyway. He keeps you humble while He blows your mind. It's so cool.

 

Atheists, I may guess, hate those they can't conform with.

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typo

What do you think about the Bible? Is the bible telling
a. pure truths
b. mixed truths and lies
?

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If you can't answer then I guess I will stop replying to you.

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1) What do you mean 'stop' replying to me? You haven't even started. You've actually avoided my post altogether, while asking a question that should be so obvious that it was never worth asking.

2) It is a collection of texts written by ancient man to exlain how he understood the world. While there are certainly some factual aspects, only someone with astounding ignorance would even consider answering (a). Much like the Epic of Gilgamesh, which too has factual parts to it - but I do not consider half man/half scorpions or ogres as real creatures.

Having said all that I wouldn't answer (b) either. It is not a case of 'truths' and 'lies', but an explanation to things that these people simply could not understand. How for instance would these people have explained Katrina? There would certainly be no science to explain it for them. How could they explain death, famine, disease and other such things that even you and I would be at a loss to explain?

Then we need to also look at tradition, and the inevitable changes in already existing stories that get handed down with time. This is most certainly true of a large part of the OT, and perhaps even the NT - that only a dishonest man would try and deny, and something that needs to be recognised when reading ancient texts - be that the bible, the koran, the vedas, and so on.

So while nobody in their right mind would state the bible, koran or other ancient texts as "pure truth", I wouldn't specifically expect anyone to call it a "lie" either. A better term would perhaps be: A misinformed representation of the world and how it works.

Happy?

 

I have read some of it and I know what you are trying to say. You haven't given us any numbers or odds though. You don't believe that the organization and design you see in nature came about by chance. However what you haven't answered yet is how assuming the existance of an entity that is more organized and designed solves this problem. To me it only compounds the problem. Anyone who looks objectively to the problem of intelligent design can see this. Intellegent design theory is not an argument for god's existance, trust me people (most people) here are not buying it.

When I was a Christain I did exactly the same thing. In the end I had no choice but to believe god does not exist, or at least say from the evidence I have looked at all proofs of god existing lead to fallacy, so I can no longer assert that he does exist. If you look at the evidence too you will see the same.

I am not hidding from anything. I assure you if I looked at the evidence and found proof of god's existance I would still be a Christian. However this was not the case.

 

Enton,

Went to your link posted here, to see if it actually contained anything worthwhile. Much as I suspected it doesn't, and is the usual dismal display of apologetics that most Christian sites display. Just so you're aware Intelligent design theory and the Moral argument have all been well refuted many times over. Your link offers nothing but dead arguments.

If you want a more thoughall refutation of the moral argument or ID theory please look here. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/design.html, and here for the moral argument http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/moral.html

 

Hitler and Stalin were not Christians.

I never said that, I said they were religious, however Hitler's beliefs were very much aligned with Christianity.

You don’t know anything about the Word of God.

True, but shouldn't we also find out if you know anything about the word of god?

I suspect you either do not know the word of god, as everyone else in the world does not, or you are the only human alive that does. Each individual has their own interpretation of the word of god and each individual will argue his view against anyone else's view, that has been shown here on many occasions. None of them, or only one of them could possibly be right, just like only you could possibly be right. We'll never know and neither will you.

However, you could take a stand and claim that you do know the word of god, do you?

He had different motives, just like the Popes who slaughtered many Judeans for political reasons, which also displays there rejection of Gods Word.

Those Popes claimed to know the word of god, just like you presumably do. It was their perception of the word of god which caused their motives. And please remember, they were Popes, the closest ones to god, therefore their knowledge of god would be far more advanced than yours.

I did much sin to the point of complete shame, sitting desolate in my sin like a harlot who has been violated from anything and every thing, then I searched for answers and found more questions, until I found Truth, and my eyes where opened. I was blind, but now I see.

That can also be viewed as one who simply cannot deal with reality and must turn to fantasy in order to 'tune-out' reality.

 

That's your personal ignorance to assume that Hitler's beliefs were very much aligned with (I guess, you should replace Christianity with Catholicism since there was recorded in the History of the World about Papal order of Inquisition). :bugeye:

 

Right. And Catholics aren't Christians?

 

They are pagans.

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That's your personal ignorance to assume that Hitler's beliefs were very much aligned with (I guess, you should replace Christianity with Catholicism...

You can read 'Mein Kampf' to confirm his beliefs. He wrote it.

 

So are you.

In any case, it's stupid to say that Hitler WAS a Christian, Catholic or whatever. He just SAID he was, that doesn't mean that he really IS.

 

He just SAID he was, that doesn't mean that he really IS.

Then, can we believe anyone who claims to be a Christian, Catholic or whatever?

Should we believe you or the Pope?

 

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M*W: Why would we hate someone who believes differently from us? That is not our intent. Atheists react differently to theists depending on how the theist presents his argument. When the believer approaches an atheist in dialog, the atheists is clearly receptive to the theist's case and will listen and discuss both sides of the argument. When the theist approaches the atheist quoting bible scripture, maybe even some atheists can tolerate that. I'm not one of them, however. When the theist approaches the atheist with threats of hell, fire and brimstone, you can be assured that we don't want to hear it. Theists have never been able to provide satisfactory references for their argument. Generally, the theist will approach us in a condescending manner indicating that we are inferior to theists. The sad fact is that theists wear blinders and refuse to think their religion through. Atheists have already gone the gamut of thinking religion through. That's another lost cause. Some atheists prefer the company of other atheists. Certainly, religionists prefer the company of their like kind. Theists vs. Atheists is like combining oil and water. They just don't mix. It always confuses me why theists come to sciforums when they are definitely not science-minded. I think that theists come to atheist forums out of curiosity but, most of all, to convert the rest of us. The likelihood of converting atheists to christians is zilch to none. Religionists won't find much solace here.

 

Jeff the Learner,
Hi, how are you?
I accept your challenge. Now, please define for me, in scientific terms, (since that's how you want to prove it) what God is. Pretend that I know nothing about the mythology associated with Him.

(please ignore my aviator, I will try to be unbiased)