Americans this is why Katrina happened ?

Good post, Te Jen!

Oftimes we like to yell and scream even when we don't know what the hell it is that we're screaming about!! I've noticed a distinct trend in posts about the storm that teeter on the desire for a socialist govenment whenever any problems occur. Anything that happens, people immediately blame the federal government for something the feds have no business doing in a democracy!

Baron Max

 

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While there is alot of good points in your post, I would like to offer a bit of counterpoint.

Smaller level: First I have been told the government in Louisianna, N. O. specifically, built low income housing at the lowest point in that city. If this is accurate, what responsiblity do the poor people who live in this government supplied housing, due to qualifing economic conditions have, for the tragedy they have endured? Who should have built "hurricane proof" housing for the poor? And what exactly is "hurricane proof"? I think it has been established that virtually nothing was provided for these people to escape the city itself via the government. Its obvious most were in an economic condition that precluded this exodus that other, more economically advantaged persons were able to choose. Additionally, as I understand it, there was no built in method of evacuation this city. I saw pictures of school busses lined up and filled with water. Of course, you need drivers for these busses and they may have been sitting on the interstate trying to evacuate themselves.

Middle level:A significant part of the problem going on there (as I understand it) is the excessive developement. Both for human habitation and for meeting/profiting from oil and gas expectations.

Are you saying every person who has traveled to N.O. as a part of the tourist economy and enjoyed its offerings is responsible? Are you saying every person who has enjoyed seafood that was produced in this region is responsible? All of these economic incentives contributed to persons living there. There are many places in this country which are not suffering from gas/oil interuptions. So they shouldnt be held responsible. Should they?

Huge picture: Some of these problems are due to things going on above the state of Louisianna with the channel constructions/concreting going on (past and present) via ACE (Army Corps of Engineers), which would be hard to blame the government of Louisianna for. While a piece of me says Move this City, I have to accept this fact. We are not going to close down the mouth of the Mississippi river to shipping. So there is a need for established housing, food, energy, medicine, schools, etc to support the workers who do move the massive amounts of product thru this delta region. If this economically driven country wants to keep going as capitalists, then government does bear responsiblity for such an important shipping/oil-gas producing region.

Personally, I cannot find any reason not to hold government on the city, state, and federal level responsible for all the human suffering that has occured in this region. It was government which approved every permit of expansion or denied every request for safeguards in this region. It was ultimately government who ignored all the cries for help long before Katrina made the list of named hurricanes. Years and Years worth of cries for proactive help.

How can we avoid making a political issue out of it, when it is politics which allowed this suffering to reach this magnitude?

 

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Well, I don't know that they actually "built" the housing ...they may have approved the permits? I don't know how they do it down there ...I do know that there are state and federal requirements for building in "flood-prone" areas. So I don't know how NO worked it all out.

However, be that as it may, ...IF the city had NOT approved living in those areas, many people would have complained and bitched and moaned! So it's a two-edged sword ...the people needed housing, but the city couldn't afford to build in other than "flood-prone" areas. So what does one do?

I'll also say that anyone who lives in such areas have the responsibility to provide emergency supplies for just such predicted disasters. The people in that area should have had supplies to last at least five days, perhaps longer. They did not!

Well, yes, they did! I don't know what it entailed, but every city MUST have emergency evacuation procedures and personnel and equipment in place. It's a federal requirement that's been in effect since the 70s or 80s.

And you place no resposibility on the citizens at all? Why not? Didn't they choose to live there in the first place? Didn't they have a responsibility to have emergency supplies on hand for just such disasters?

We don't live in a socialist nation ...therefore, the responsibilities for our own safety and livelihood must be our own.

Baron Max

 

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They're playing politics when they cut budgets like the budget to fix the levees. George W. Bush deserves having it thrown back in his face. I'm sick of the Republicans whining "don't make it a political issue" to slide out from under their complicity in making this a much worse disaster.

 

Since you seem to know everything about this ....please explain in some detail how the budgets for the levees were applied for, voted on, approved by, etc, etc. In doing so, you can explain just how President Bush had anything to do with it!

Baron Max

 

No government funds go anywhere without approval. The fact is that this was done with government oversight and approval. Low income housing has lots of permits and processes that must be approved by government.

Red herring? Strawman? I do mix those two up.

It has been pointed out several times the stuggles for poor people to make ends meet at the end of the month and/or between paychecks. Additionally, there probably was 5 days of food in the kitchens of most of the flooded houses. But then once the waters pour in, flight for life becomes paramount. You did pay attention as some survivors talked about chopping holes in their roofs to escape right? You did listen to stories of surviors saying they were only able to escape with the clothes on their backs right? Some people did bring food to the dome. That was quickly consumed or taken by brute force. Where was the security? Where was the "just in case" food/water supplies?

So why wasnt it implemented by the government of N.O. or Louisiana? I remember the mayor suggesting people go to the dome. Maybe that was the "big plan". Still a failure on the government level. Wouldnt any government emergency shelter include food and water? And the dome became exactly that. An emergency shelter.

I am not interested in blaming the victims of this natural disaster no more than I blame hikers who get hurt when a storm comes in, or mountain climbers that get trapped under the same conditions. I, like most of the people in N.O. and the gulf coast pay our taxes to fund operations such as FEMA, Nat. Guard, police, hosptials, etc. so I do expect a better performance for my money than what has been exibited in this particular case. The government failed in its job all across the board in this one. The blame lies there. Not on the people who are suffering due to the breakdown of government reaction to a disaster. News crews got in and out. People offered to help and were turned back by the "authorities". I am sure my anger is directed squarely at those who deserve it most.

 

Thats fucking stupid, even including the fact I agree with you alot, and Like your opinions, this is insane. It degrodates anyone who supports your side of the argument on any subject now, all because of this fucking stupid accusation. Huricanes have hit the american coast for millenia, Not only this but since 1994 when the kyoto protocol became strong, nothing america would have signed would somehow lower any immisions, and would have ZERO effect on the ozone in an proportion to somehow stop hurricanes doing somthing that they have been doing since our atmosphere molded itself into this shape. For fucks sake, how could you even think of that brian. This is some shizophrenic bullshit.

 

Yeah, people move into hurricane ally, or tonado ally, or right on top of a fault line, or right below a volcanoe, and then complain when the inevitable happens. I don't get that.

 

I was using the Kyoto as an example , super hurricanes like this are a fact of global warming . And dont tell me this Super hurricane was a normal occurence .

 

Global warming could not have been prevented by the US joining the Kyoto protocol 5 even 20 years ago! The kyoto protocol dos'nt clean our atmosphere, nor does it reverse global warming, all it does is TRY to prevent it from getting any worse, which still isnt working, we still polute and still cause more greenhouse gas effect with every passing year. Why are you blaming the US for not stepping into kyoto, we can just as effectively blame any industrial country who have ever released green house gasses into our atmosphere.

 

You are aware that greenhouse gasses don't really need US to aid them in accumulating in the atmosphere.. right? Us or no us, they seem to be cyclical in accumulating significantly enough to raise the global temperature to significantly higher levels that it is currently.

 

Explain in detail why you willfully ignore facts that are in today's news for everyone to see.

 

Sorry, Brian. This "Super" Hurricane was indeed a normal occurence.
Look up Galverston, Texas, September 8, 1900, for example.

If a thing hasn't happened for quite a while, that does not mean it will never happen again.

 

Easy! The news media tells us exactly what they want us to hear/see/read. Believing everything they say is nothing less than total ignorance and stupidity.

Baron Max

 

I'll remember that the next time you ask me to believe a statement made by the conservatives.

 

I seldom, if ever, ask anyone to believe anything I say .....and it's damned seldom that I make any statements on this forum. But I do ask a lot of questions of those who DO make statements!

Some on these forums might take some lessons, ya' know?

Baron Max

 

Is that right?

 

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Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has blamed Hurricane Katrina on The United States refusal to ratify the Kyoto Protocols on global warming. You can read his remarks in the <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/afor-they-that-sow-the-_b_6396.html">Huffington Post</a>. Not surprising it happens to be the same site that is hosting Cindy Sheehan’s rants.

Here is a list of Hurricanes Since 1886 that could have been prevented by the Kyoto Protocol according to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

<a href="http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/satellite/satelliteseye/educational/cat5hur.html"><em>Hurricane facts</em></a>

<em>Category 5 MONSTERS!

To qualify as a Category 5 hurricane on the </em><a href="http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/satellite/satelliteseye/educational/saffir.html"><em>Saffir-Simpson hurricane intensity scale</em></a><em>, maximum sustained winds must exceed 155 mph (135 kt). Through 1998, only twenty-two Atlantic storms have reached this intensity, and only eight were of category 5 strength at time of landfall. Of these 22, only two made U.S. landfall: the 1935 Florida Keys hurricane and Hurricane Camille, which hit the Mississippi coastline in 1969. The table below lists all known category 5 Atlantic hurricanes since records began in 1886.
List of Category 5 Atlantic Hurricanes (1886 - Present)
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Interesting Facts
Note that several infamous storms which struck the U.S. are listed in the table above, but no entry appears in the "Landfall" column. This is because the storms had weakened to below Category 5 intensity at the time of U.S. landfall. Hurricanes which had reached Category 5 intensity but had weakened by the time of U.S. landfall include: hurricanes of 1928, 1938 (New England Hurricane), and 1947, plus Donna (1960), Ethel (1960), Carla (1961), Beulah (1967), David (1979), Allen (1980), Hugo (1989), and Mitch (1998). Though it was an extremely strong Category 4 storm, even at landfall, Hurricane Andrew never achieved Category 5 status.
Most Intense At U.S Landfall:
1935 Florida Keys
892 mb/
26.35 in/
140 kt
Highest Winds at U.S. Landfall:
1969 Camille
909 mb/
26.84 in/
165 kt
Most Intense Atlantic Hurricane:
1988 Gilbert
888 mb/
26.22 in/
160 kt
Longest as Category Five:*
1980 Allen
899 mb/
26.55 in/
165 kt
* Hurricane Allen reached Category 5 intensity three times along its path through the southern Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico: twice these periods were of 24-hours duration and the third lasted 18 hours.
1) With the exception of Camille, no Category 5 hurricanes have ever existed north of 30 degrees N nor south of 14 degrees N. 2) Four oceanic areas have experienced Category 5 intensity hurricanes twice: (26.5N, 77W), (18N, 86W),(24.5N, 96.5W) and (28-30N, 89W) (the path of Camille)!3) Areas which have never experienced a landfalling hurricane of Category 5 intensity include: the U.S. East Coast, Cuba, Jamaica, nor most of the Windward or Leeward Islands!
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If only the world had thought of the Kyoto Protocol in 1886. We could have avoided all of these hurricanes. Oh the Humanity!</div><div align="justify">
Robert F. Kennedy’s assertion that the Kyoto Protocol could have prevented Hurricane Katrina has as much logic as the line in Monty Python and The Holy Grail “Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes?”