The woman created before Eve.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Dinosaur, Aug 15, 2005.

  1. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Does any one here have an opinion the woman created on the sixth day?

    If you read Genesis carefully, it seems to describe two different woman being created, one on the sixth day and one created later.

    Early in Genesis there is a verse or two about the creation of a man and a women on the sixth day. Later, Adam is described as being alone in the Garden of Eden, while all the other creatures had mates. To remedy this, god created Eve from a part of Adam. I do not think the original text specifies a rib.

    Due to the above two sections of Genesis, there is some Jewish-originated mythology about a woman sometimes called Lilith. I have read some very interesting fiction about her descendants.

    Is there any Christian-originated mythology about the woman created on the sixth day? How about Islamic mythology?

    Is there any mythology which uses some name other than Lilith?
     
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  3. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Interesting that you should refer to Lilith. I was reading a poem the other day by Dante Gabriel Rossetti which can be said to refer to Lilith, but more generally, the femme fatale.

    Mesopotamian traditions have the name lilitu for a night spirit which preyed on children. I'm not sure if the Hebraic version names Lilith as one of the mothers of the Nephilim. Islamism does not mention Lilith, who I am sure originated as a way of scaring little children.

    Soon afterward the young son of the king took ill, Said Nebuchadnezzar, "Heal my son. If you don't, I will kill you." Ben Sira immediately sat down and wrote an amulet with the Holy Name, and he inscribed on it the angels in charge of medicine by their names, forms and images, and by their wings, hands, and feet. Nebuchadnezzar looked at the amulet. "Who are these?"

    "The angles who are in charge of medicine: Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof. After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air. Adam stood in prayer before his Creator: 'Sovereign of the universe!' he said, 'the woman you gave me has run away.' At once, the Holy One, blessed be He, sent these three angles to bring her back.

    "Said the Holy One to Adam, 'If she agrees to come back, fine. If not she must permit one hundred of her children to die every day.' The angels left God and pursued Lilith, whom they overtook in the midst of the sea, in the mighty waters wherein the Egyptians were destined to drown. They told her God's word, but she did not wish to return. The angels said, 'We shall drown you in the sea.'

    "'Leave me!' she said. 'I was created only to cause sickness to infants. If the infant is male, I have dominion over him for eight days after his birth, and if female, for twenty days.'

    "When the angels heard Lilith's words, they insisted she go back. But she swore to them by the name of the living and eternal God: 'Whenever I see you or your names or your forms in an amulet, I will have no power over that infant.' She also agreed to have one hundred of her children die every day. Accordingly, every day one hundred demons perish, and for the same reason, we write the angels' names on the amulets of young children. When Lilith sees their names, she remembers her oath, and the child recovers."

    - From the Alphabet of Ben Sira​


    And of course, we can't have a rational discussion without admiring Collier's depiction:

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    Homena homena..

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  5. Pi-Sudoku Slightly extreme Registered Senior Member

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    You could do with getting out a bit more.

    I always thought that Adam must have done more than eat an apple to be cast out of the garden of eden, maybee he killed his first wife!
     
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  7. The Gaour Registered Member

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    In Egypt , especially Ur, amongst the Canaanites, Lilith has been known as Baalat, the "Divine Lady". She is said to fly around the night searching for newborn babies to kidnapp and strangle, and apparently slept with men, seducing them into providing her with demon sons.
    Often, Christian myth calls her the Queen of Succubi (succubi=harlot of hell). Early celebrant monks apparently slept with one hand on their genitals and the other clutching a crucifix, attempting to fend her off.
    I've also seen her referred to in several books as an ancient form of a blood drinker, somewhat like the early vardoulacha, or vampire. Most likely ancient superstition.
     
  8. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    SouthStar,

    The properties of the pic look like a valid path, but I never saw it from the beginning. Maybe you copied it wrong or something. It hasn't been edited.
     
  9. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Click on show picture. Why is it doing that?
     
  10. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    SouthStar: I think the picture is being supressed by some browser security setting. In many contexts, I often see a small box with a red cross instead of a graphic. In some contexts, there is a clickable option to enable viewing the graphics.
     
  11. Light Registered Senior Member

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    There's no second woman or great mystery either. The story is simply told twice. Read it all carefully again.
     
  12. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7991/1332/1600/Lilith873.jpg

    The page that hosts the pic is probably having bandwidth issues. I've seen this type of behavior before. Sometimes the pic will show. Sometimes it won't.

    Sexy.


    Anyway.
    That picture brings to mind the idea of the old matriarchal religion which was supposedly simply reversed by the patriarchs of the hebrews. The old earth goddess was often linked to a serpent as her husband. The serpent stood for knowledge. Magic. (Tree of knowledge...) When the ancient hebrews reshaped the old religion to make themselves a 'people apart' then they made the god male. The serpent evil. The tree of knowledge as the root of all sin. The woman as the perpetrator of that sin. Etc...

    All of this is spoken of in Joseph Campbell's Masks of God. I highly recommend anyone interested in the progression of mythology to read them. Even though I've heard that much of it is highly speculative, it's still very interesting as long as one takes it with a grain of salt.



    As to the story. Yeah. I haven't read in a while. But it's common knowledge that the books of Moses are at least three different versions that were just smashed together at some time. Many parts are told twice with varying details. Noah's flood, for instance. In one it's 2 pairs of each animal. And the other it's 7 of every clean animal and 2 of the unclean (or something like that. Again. It's been awhile since I've read and I'm not really motivated to go get exact details.)

    I wouldn't be surprised if this thing about Lillith is the same thing.
     
  13. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Now that is my kind of woman.
     
  14. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Now now superluminal.. no spills on the keyboard please.
     
  15. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Dominant theory is that she was fired and fell from grace because she refused to submit to Adam. She felt she was an equal and we just can't have that, can we.
     
  16. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    If you read Genesis really carefully, you'll realise that this is the first of many stories in the Bible which is repeated with slightly different details. Check out all the stories which seem to have contradictory details and you will be able to split out at least two distinct stories which have been intermingled, or which just follow on from each other. Then if you read extra carefully, you'll see that one version of a story always refers to the Supreme Being as "the LORD" and the other version always as "God".

    And you will have had your first glimpse of what is now known as the Documentary Hypothesis. There were three authors of the first four books of the Bible, known to scholars as J (because God is referred to by the tetragrammaton, JHWH), E (because God is called El or Elohim) and P (these parts of the books are devoted to Priestly matters, law, ritual, dates and genealogies - Leviticus is P virtually in its entirety). Then Deuteronomy is the first book of "The Deuteronimistic History" which unites Deuteronomy, Joshua, Samuel and Kings, and whose author is known as D.

    My favourite bit of story doubleting seems to me the clearest example of all three authors having a go, because the one story appears three times in three different places in Genesis.

    J tells the story as if it happened to Abraham in the days when he was still Abram.

    Genesis 12:xi-xx:
    11. And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:
    12. Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
    13. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
    14. And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
    15. The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
    16. And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
    17. And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
    18. And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
    19. Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
    20. And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

    Then E tells his version of the story, this time happening to Abraham (and the king involved is Abimelech).

    Genesis 20
    1. And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
    2. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
    3. But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
    4. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
    5. Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
    6. And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
    7. Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
    8. Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.
    9. Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
    10. And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
    11. And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
    12. And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
    13. And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
    14. And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.
    15. And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.
    16. And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
    17. So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
    18. For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

    Finally J tells the story all over again, only this time it happened to Abraham's son, Isaac.

    Genesis 26:vi-xi:
    6. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:
    7. And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.
    8. And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and, behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife.
    9. And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife: and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.
    10. And Abimelech said, What is this thou hast done unto us? one of the people might lightly have lien with thy wife, and thou shouldest have brought guiltiness upon us.
    11. And Abimelech charged all his people, saying, He that toucheth this man or his wife shall surely be put to death.

    It's also fun to pose questions like, "How many of each animal did Noah take into the ark, and then laugh when they say, "Two". Sometimes it's two. Sometimes it's two of the unclean and of the clean by sevens (possibly seven pairs, but they were needed for sacrifice in any case, and possibly "sacrifice" just means for them to eat!) Seriously, Fundamentalists question science and have careful ways of interpreting the Creation, but the quickest way to destroy the faith of a Fundie is (or ought to be) simply to get them to read the story of the Flood and then tell them to tell you how many days were the waters on the earth?
     
  17. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Light: You posted the following.
    • There's no second woman or great mystery either. The story is simply told twice. Read it all carefully again.
    The following is what I have read. After describing the creation of animals on the fifth, Genesis 1: 27-28 describes the following as happening on the sixth day.
    • So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    Then Genesis 2:20-22 describes the following.
    • And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
    The first account seems to describe creation of man and woman at nearly the same time, while the second seems to describe the creation of Eve somewhat later. There is a definite implication that Adam is alone interacting with god prior to the creation of Eve.
     
  18. The Gaour Registered Member

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    i've read another myth that says he married lilith because he grew tired of mating with the animals...

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