The horrible fact about Baron's statement is that it is true. Lets face it, to the American Government, 20 marines is worth more than 1 million Iraqi's. What is the term used to describe the dead Iraqi's? Ah yes, 'collateral damage'. Lets face it, when there is a mission during a war and there are no deaths on your side, the Government considers it a successful mission and pats itself on the back and will praise itself to high heaven... regardless of the fact that 20 innocent civilians lost their lives. To the average US citizens, those marines are worth more than 1 million Iraqi's. Lets face some home truths here. Who here does not breath a sigh of relief when the news reports of raid on some insurgents in a town somewhere in Iraq and then says that while 5 Iraqi's died in the raid, there were no allied fatalities? Even a small breath of relief? You're telling me that the families of the soldiers watching the news aren't happy that no soldiers died in said raid? The whole premise of this thread began with a tribute paid to those dead marines in a paper. When was the last time did a US paper pay a tribute to the hundreds of thousands Iraqi's who have died since this war started? Why are no tributes posted when dozens are killed and classified as 'collateral damage' during a raid or bombing? Believe me when I say that the thought of those 20 marines dying in this stupid war is painful. I cannot begin to imagine what their families are going through. But the sad truth in all of this is that the lives of the US soldiers and allied troops are worth more than the Iraqi's. They are worth more to the Government of their respective countries and they are worth more to the population of those countries as well. The Iraqi's, sadly, do not matter as much because if they did... then we would be seeing daily tributes to them in our papers. That is the hypocrisy of this whole damn mess. Do I think it's right? Hell no.. But what you and I think does not really matter in the whole scheme of things.
Fucking apathy- so overwhelming at times. When I find myself slipping into it, I have found relief and inspiration from people who rise above it. By finding some inspiration, and then doing something on my own- even the smallest of actions- there is relief, and a sense of possibility. Tune into the fact that that our actions do affect the lives around us, and even affect the lives (and deaths) of people seemingly far removed. No we can't (very often) individually change the world in a dramatic way, but we can easily discover a connectedness with people of compassion and constructivity, and contribute together to bringing change for the better. Learn about people who actively resist our destructive tendencies to dehumanize. Here are just a few examples: Americans Who Tell the Truth; Joe Carr; Michael Hoffman; Cynthia Banas; Kathy Kelly; Cindy Sheehan; Rahul Mahajan; Michael Parenti; Howard Zinn Then go do something. I feel a little better just putting a sticker on my car, or correcting something stupid said by a fellow citizen. What we think, say, and do does matter in the world outside, and within our own souls.
Hype, I fully agree with you. And in a perfect world, it would be just like that. In a perfect world everyone would care. In a perfect world there would be no war. Unfortunately for us and more so for the innocent civilians in Iraq, this is not a perfect world. You and I might do something about it to feel better about ourselves, to prove to others and ourselves that we care, but do you seriously think that others care? Everyone should care, but everyone does not. The Government does not care at all. Their sole concern is to come out on top, regardless of the consequences. Yes what we say does matter to the outside world looking in. But actions speak a lot louder than words. The outside world knows that you might care, but they also know that the people in power do not care. Here in lies the problem. When you have a government who refers to the deaths of innocent civilians as being collateral damage, a government voted in by the people and representing the people, what kind of overall message does that send to those on the outside? Those marines should not have died in a war that should never have been fought. And the Iraqi's should not be killed by a bomb dropped on their roof while lying in their beds. The outside world looks as we protest against the war and protest against the number of people dying, but they also see a government that does not listen to the people. The Iraqi's see the US making heroes of its dead soldiers and unfortunate collateral damage of Iraqi's. That is the sad truth of this war. Some of us do care and some of us work damn hard to try and stop the war, but the majority neither care nor want to care.
Whose perfect world? Already society is straining to the breaking point, trying to find a big enough outlet for violent impulses.
Bells: "but the majority neither care nor want to care." Yes, the majority don't seem to care. But as this war continues to hit home, America inevitably has another think coming. Those of us who do care must keep holding up the truths we share because as this crisis builds, more Americans will pay attention. As this disaster increasingly hits us all (if not in our hearts then in our wallets), and every time an American stops to think twice, it's an opportunity to open their eyes.
For what it's worth, Bells and hypewaders, it's people like yourselves who are, to my mind, the true Americans: living embodiments of the original - the old and respected - America, the America that we would love to be able to love again, peopled by citizens who recognize the fragility of democracy, that they themselves are its lifeforce, the blood pumping through its veins; that blind faith deference - a citizenry standing still and silent - is a democracy unexercised, a democracy unnourished, a democracy shrunk down to it's last visible vestige - a vote; a vote that says, do as you please - I won't look. I won't even care. And meanwhile, the image - the old America - is paraded to a world that knows very well that there's no blood in the veins. These days, someone's pulling the strings.
hypewaders Pay attention to what though? The dollar amount, the amount of US soldiers lost or the cost of the innocent Iraqi's killed? I'd bet that the financial cost and the number of soldiers lost would factor a lot more for the majority of Americans. I mean look at the anti-war protests going on in the US at this present time. Are they protesting to stop the war to save the Iraqi's or are they saying to stop the war and bring the soldiers home because the US does not want to lose any more of its soldiers? To the average American, the life of the American soldier is worth a lot more than the lives of Iraqi's killed in the war. The war is not hitting home based on the cost of Iraqi civilians killed. The war is hitting home because of how many soldiers are dying and how much it costs (financially). To the American Government, the American soldier is definitely worth more than the average Iraqi Joe Blogg going about his daily business. To the average American soldier fighting in Iraq, their lives and that of their comrades is worth a lot more than the Iraqi civilian. Every day I turn on the news or read a paper and I see a report that 20 or so Iraqi's killed. I see reports of whole families being wiped out because they were in the line of fire or the bombs dropped on the wrong place, etc. I never see a a tribute to those innocent Iraqi's. 20 soldiers die however and the tributes come thick and fast.. not that there is anything wrong with that because their deaths do and should continue to matter.. but it shows the mentality of the media and the average citizen in countries involved in this war that they do not demand that tributes be given to the innocent bystanders in this war who are only trying to scrounge a living from the ruin that their country has become. The Americans want to hear about Americans. Not about Iraqi's. Just like the British and Australians want to hear about the British and Australian soldiers and not about Iraqi's. Those of us who do want to hear about the Iraqi's killed are ignored. After all, our governments consider them to be merely the "unfortunate" casualties in the war, but as they keep telling us, those casualties can't be helped.. makes you want to gag doesn't it? It becomes a sad state for any society to think that its members would pay a lot more attention to something as horrible as this when it starts to hit their wallets. MacZ Speaking of wanting to gag... I'm not American MacZ. I'm an Australian looking at the blood leaving the veins of all the countries involved in this disaster. I'm looking at my fellow Australian citizens and wondering when did we all become sheeples like the Americans. Then I look at Howard's image on the screen and realise that we've become sheeples because he's clinging so tightly to Bush's backside that he's beginning to look like the wool that grows on a sheep. I'm living in hope that someone will actually come and shear the little turd off.
I believe that most people, including Americans, are intrinsicly good. But intellectually lazy. And plagued by psychological hangups. Most Americans remain most comfortable assuming that their government is righteous and humane, and are uncomfortable facing a reality in conflict with those assumptions. But reality will of course come crashing in on a people so ensconced as we in our interwoven national and psychological defense-mechanisms. Whether the reaction is a new sanity or a new orgy of carnage depends entirely on those of us who keep hope alive, and keep holding up the better ideals of humanity through the very close shaves ahead. Live in hope, and revel in the tiniest words and deeds that can literally save the world.
Would that be the true Americans who consistently killed the Indians, stole their lands, drove them from the country, killed all of their game, burned their fields of corn? Would that be the true Americans who bought and sold black slaves to work the fields of cotton and tobacco? Would that be the true Americans stole lands belonging to the Mexicans? Would that be the true Americans who fought half their own people in the south to force their own ideals onto them, killing millions of Americans in the process? Would that be the true Americans who consistently discriminated against blacks, indians, mexicans, Irish, Jews, ...? I can't help think that you've conjured up "true Americans" in some dreamworld of your own making ....ignoring totally the brutal, violent history of the United States of America. How can you do that? Baron Max
Ahh, but YOU are the epitome of "great American", huh? Don't you think that's pretty elitist of you, Hype? And we talk about democracy, yet we're the first to complain when it doesn't go our own way! The vote is in, the leaders have been elected by the people .......ahh, but you don't like what Americans elected and what the leaders have decided, so you place YOURSELF above it all. And worse, you make nasty allegations about the Americans who don't see things your way. That's not the way this great nation was built nor is it the way it was founded. We have a voice in how the nation is run, but don't we have a responsibility to adhere to the voice of the people? Your favorite candidate didn't win, so you're now crying in your milk. Would you have others do that if you candidate had won? I think I'm going to barf!! Such high-fuckin'-ideals ...without one shred of substantiating facts to back it up! Just bullshit pscho-babble that means nothing at all, nothing! Just idle dreams for idealist who have nothing better to do and much too much time on their hands. Baron Max
Baron, I hope you know that your proving Hypewader's point even more. He didnt even mention anything about candidates that he wished to have one, or that everyone else is wrong and he's right. He's got a genuine concern for America, and its APATHY and ignorance that seems to be prevelent amongnst its citizens. Well I'll second that he is a great American. He is some one who realizes that everything isn't fine and dandy with our government and with the overall mentality that America has.
Orestes, you've misunderstood my post. I wasn't talking about any specific election or candidate, but the VERY PRiNCIPLE of our democratic system. "We, the people" elect our government officials to run the nation. It's a system that basically means that we've turned over the operation to those who we think are best qualified to lead the nation. If we don't or can't abide by the decisions of the electorate, the people, then we're only turning the system into "Government by Protest" or "Government by Mob Rule". If we, the people, can't abide by the elections, then all we're saying is that the elections are worthless, that our votes are worthless and that whoever protests the loudest or the most fervently should lead the nation! Hypewaders is NOT a great American! He's advocating "rule by protest" or "rule by mob" in the most strenuous terms. Because HE doesn't like the way the voters voted, HE wants things changed! HE is not willing to abide by the will of the people and, worse, he's advocating an overthrow of the government .....even though it was duly elected by the people. What does that make him? Not a great American, that's for sure. Baron Max
This "mob" of which I speak is motivated by a common desire for something someone once described as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of Feeling Like Snoopy Doing His Happy Dance" (OK so I paraphrase). So get the fuck out of our way, you and your mentally-handicapped amatuer heir-President, and all his self-serving dinosaur cronies too. That's right: Just as fast as you can fuck up the economy, we're voting your crooked bastards out. So just keep fucking up. Better yet, deny that you're fucking up- That's the ticket. Kiss it. -Goodbye. "HE doesn't like the way the voters voted, HE wants things changed! HE is not willing to abide by the [present fear-fueled (but sputtering) knee-jerk] will of the people and, worse, he's advocating an overthrow of the government .....even though it was [highly contentiously] elected by the people." P.S:that's all true, by the way.
Hehe, this error is deliciously ironic. How familiar are you with the workings of the US government? This post says "not very". The soldiers and Marines fighting the GWOT in Iraq and Afghanistan did not choose to go to war. The politicians that sent them chose to go to war. Our servicemembers are American citizens. Regular people, no different from you or I (and until a few years ago, I was one of them). Unlike their civilian counterparts, they have opted to serve their nation's defense by swearing to defend the Constitution, with their lives if necessary. The lifestyle is a hard one. The pay is sub-standard. Mortal danger is an everyday reality. Yet these people will leave the safety of their homes, their families and their regular civilian jobs, to pick up the mantle and answer the call of duty. Volunteer national service is one of the noblest professions that exists. What is inherently wrong with it? You might not approve of the war in Iraq, and that is fine, but that's not really relevant here. The point is that PEOPLE died, people who, under a different set of political leaders, could very well be deployed abroad in a different country, doing something you would approve of. The same soldiers and Marines fightiing in Iraq were, a little over a decade ago, bringing food and medical aid to the people of Somalia, for example. Rejoicing in or acting cavalier and nonchalant about their deaths is beyond reprehensible. You should be ashamed of yourself. Next time you should turn on your brain and think about what you are about to post before doing so. You will probably save yourself some embarassment.
Yes, perhaps. But would you give the same right to some OTHER "mob" whose motivations were distinctly different to your own? And if their methods of gaining political power was more successful than yours, you'd willingly allow them the same right as you'd expect of your own "mod"? I wonder ...if another "mob" decided to use terrorism, killing and death to attain the same political power that you espouse, you'd approve? From your post, I'd have to assume that you would. May the "mob" with the most powerful methods win, huh? ...LOL! Baron Max
[edited back, because you're responding to version before I edited that beginning out: Don't overdramatize (like I'm one to talk)] Yes, another mob than mine has been thus far successful. It has been a mob feeding on American ignorance and fear. Your mob achieved 8 years of Dubya. As a result, there has been much unnecessary killing and severe undermining of our economy. But will Americans remain as fearful and ignorant as to continue trusting present leadership? Look around carefully, and you will see a turning on the neocons- Democrats, Republicans, independents, swing voters, even the other 2 branches of government. Ask some everyday people you meet. It looks like require rivers of blood, sweat, and tears will still roll on before our country abondons the nocon mob, but I have no doubt that the policies of the Bush Administration will yield deaths and downturn in sufficient measure. It's going to get much worse for all of us before your masters are utterly discredited and we have lived through all of the violent blowback and economic disaster they will have precipitated- But I also know you are ultimately going to lose because you are operating in negligence of established norms of behavior for an advanced, powerful, and modern democracy. All that remains to be decided is how far down your neocons will drag our country before your grip on power is removed through disaster, activism, education, and the democratic and judicial processes. "May the "mob" with the most powerful methods win, huh? ...LOL!" Let it be so. -Bobby Zimmerman
Hype, I don't think it's over-dramatizing at all. It's exactly what you've been espousing in your posts ....basically ignoring the very principles of American democracy in action. "We, the people,..." means much more than just having your own party or group of politicians elected. It means that even if yours are not, that you'll abide by the decisions of "We, the people,..." If not, we've reduced American democracy to "mob rule" or worse. And what becomes to America if that's permitted to continue? What happens if every special interest group is permitted to change the governmental system whenever they chose to wield their power? Baron Max
I'm sorry for editing while you were replying, my ISP is crawling this morning, and I didn't see you there. I don't know where I have advocated against democracy. Can you please direct me to a post? I think it would be much easier to find posts wherein I have pointed to the undue influence of special interest groups, served by intense corporate and Israeli lobbying. These have been in effect able to change the system in their favor. They have been successful in implementing major US policy that the public remains entirely baffled about. I doubt that you can take the democratic high ground relative to my position in these discussions of ours. But we should work this out and then move on to less personal and distracting attacks. You're the only Bush supporter around here who is making any measurable effort, so I would value our moving onward in our discussions. Maybe if you can (or cannot) find and indicate in context some anti-democratic quotes of mine, then we can move on. I think it's a really waste of time, but if you're going to effectively label me antidemocratic you could back up the accusation a bit with examples.
Hey Hype, just drop it. It's a lost cause. Afterall: "For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ." - Ronald Reagan "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand." - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior for Reagan - N
