India's Titanium Windfall (a.k.a. Thank you, Tsunami.)

It seems that the tsunami dumped some 40 million tons of titanium on India's coastlines.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/990210.cms

So. Put your wallet away and if you've already donated, maybe you can get your money back. They're rich and don't need you charity any longer.


Oh. And on a side note, I've just read in Discover magazine that the earthquake that spawned the Tsunami is now thought to be three times as large as was previously stated and is now the second largest earthquake ever recorded.

 

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I actually read about it in the lastest issue of Discover magazine and searched the web for a good link to post on it. (Hmm. Just looked at the original blurb and it references the Times of Inida. So I found the right link it appears.)

The 40 million tons is only an estimate, but the article says that the deposits are 10 feet thick in places.

I don't know anything about the technology involved so can't comment on it.

 

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This is distorted journalism. The researchers assessed the amount of titanium ore on a limited section of beach, then extrapolated that to 500 km of coastline. On the same basis, following a visit to Brighton, I can confidently state that there are 12,384 piers around the coast of the UK.

 

Distorted journalism nothing. They don't know and said so. It could be as much as that figure, but that naturally requires the entire 500 kilometer coastline have a similar deposit depth. Might be more on average; might be less. It's why they said, "it was still too early to project any figure for the overall quantum of fresh deposits."

Distort that.

 

The tenor of the article conveys the sense that there is something approaching 40 million tons. The caveats are not delivered till well into the article, after the reader has been hooked by the possibility of a large windfall. Note Invert Nexus's implied acceptance of this figure with his ironic 'They're rich and don't need your charity any longer.'
Recall the hugely varied behaviour of the tsunami in relation to local geography. The chances of this same enrichment being encountered over the entire 500km coastline is highly unlikely, and this is not properly emphasised in the article.
The absence of any current efficient technology for processing littoral placer deposits is largely ignored.
A scientifically educated pesron can read this article and discard the patina of presumption and implication to get at the truth. Others will go away with the mistaken belief that the 40 million tons is real and accessible. That ranks as distorted journalism in my book. (If you wish to substitute typical for distorted, go ahead.)

 

Sure, it could be less than 40 million tons. Then again, it could be more. What's also interesting is where this titanium came from. They ought to investigate whether there's a lot more where that came from.

 

It is my understanding that titanium ore is not really worth that much. It is the titanium that is valuable. I’m to lazy to look it up and provide any links but I think titanium ore is mostly titanium oxide which is used as a white pigment in paint and very high quality paper.

I have no idea what it takes to turn titanium oxide into titanium but I think this step adds a lot of value.

 

Nodules

Minerals such as calcite, quartz, pyrite, and apatite may cyystallize in spherical aggregates, to develop nodular growths in many sedimentary environments. Most nodules form within sediment, while others grow near or at sediment - water interface. Abundant ferro-manganese nodules containing valuable metals such as titanium, chromium, cobalt, copper and zinc form on the deep sea floor, but so far are too expensive to recover. Other nodules may preserve rare fossils or soft tissues.

 

Actually, I was just being a touch on the sensationalist side myself. It was blatantly clear, I thought, that the 40 million tons was only an estimate. Not even an estimate really, as they made it clear that it was far too early to even say.

So. You can blame me for distorting the facts by not implicitly stating that it's an estimated number in my first post, but the article I linked to cleary states it.

And if nobody could read that in the article then they're just retarded and have no business on this site.

Anyway, as MadDad has said. It could be more. It could be less. Who knows? Only time will tell.

I find it interesting still. Regardless of the final amount. That such a calamity could actually bring material gain to the region.

And as far as the missing technology to deal with the deposits is concerned... Well. Necessity is the mother of invention, they say. And perhaps now the Indians have some incentive to come up with a method of dealing with them. If not, they can just use people power. You were aware that people power is what India is known for, didn't you? You know, cheap labor? Cheap lives?

 

Have you tried to refine aluminium by rubbing it between your hands, Invert?

Cheap people power has been vastly reduced in importance because of the advance of science. Cheap people power can somewhat reduce the costs of building the modern refining plant needed for such an undertaking, but what is totally necessary is the vast amount of capital and stored technical know how.

 

Why. No I haven't. But. I'm sure that refining techniques exploiting cheap labor can be developed.

Oh? What kinda tripe is this? Why do you think that India and China are the world up-and-comers? Science? Ha!

And these are easy to come by.

 

yeah, we are in a de-industrial revolution.

 

Would you care to name a single refining technique that exploits the use of cheap labour, anywhere in the world.

For two reasons. Cheap labour to provide the manpower for industrial plants that are manufacturing things using recent or current technology. Secondly, a growing (and numerically already vast) middle class to purchase said 'manufactured things'.

 

Well, my my. Aren't you being obstinate?
I would not care to name a single refining technique that exploits the use of cheap labour, dear sir. What I said, my good man, was that such techniques can be devised. Where there's a will there's a way. There's your science for you.

Hell, get enough people together and they could probably seperate the ore by hand with little pickaxes. At least enough to use ordinary refining techniques.

Current or recent technology meaning technology that is outdated in the United States because the cutting edge technology is about robotics not people power.

I mean, sure they use the benefits of science. I'm not saying they're over there in the stone age, but they do use people power. I used to work for a business that got lots of goods shipped in from China and from India. And the owners went to visit the factories where the goods were made and the conditions they described were not full of the marvels of science. They were full of the marvels of people power. Shipping containers being pulled from place to place by hand like the people were goddamned draft animals. The people work for pennies. This is their power.

Cheap labor. Cheap lives.

Sure. It's not about the fact they export their cheaply manufactured junk, it's that they're buying it themselves. Sure it is.

China buys all the dildos it manufactures, right?

Remember that business I worked for? One of the things that it imported was toothpaste. Care to guess the average condition of the worker's teeth in those factories? Hmm? And deodorant. Care to guess what the place smelled like?

How much you wanna bet that this growing middle class you speak of is still poor compared to first world standards and that they work in conditions that would be deemed inhumane?

 

Nope. Try reading some history of science and industry. It used to be done in a ratehr intensive manner, eg. early steel manufacturing, but now its far more efficient and profitable to use capital intensive industrial plant. Science is not omnipotent.

Actually, Titanium is produced by means of the Kroll method. It involves heating ilmenite or rutile with Chlorine at 900 degrees C, which produces titanium chloride, which is then fractionally distilled out and reduced with molten magnesium at 950-1150 degrees C under argon. So, when they breed people who can withstand that sort of temperature, you might be right.

The key points here are that
1) People power is not applicable to efficient smelting operations, and
2) These countries are trying their damnedest to develop, but they are starting from a point at least 40 years behind the rest of the world. Now parts of China are in the 21st century, whilst others are still in the 1950's. Boeing now built much of their airplanes in China. Been flying anywhere recently? Seen a coolie sitting holding the wing together for you?

 

Efficient and profitable to a western plant full of pampered workers with a union and health benefits is one thing. And something else altogether in a plant where the workers can be worked until they drop and then just bring in a new batch from the teeming hordes of unemployed milling outside.

I still dispute this. Despite the fact that people power isn't what actually smelts the ore, it's ridiculous to say that cheap labor isn't applicable.

That's a key point? Maybe in some other thread but not here. This isn't about how they're trying to get caught up with the rest of the world or whatever, it's about their situation NOW.

Yeah. Let me guess.
Hong Kong and Taiwan. 21st century.
The rest (mostly). 1950's.

Anyway. That doesn't matter.

So. What you're saying is that titanium that is washed up on their beaches, no matter how large of an amount. 40 million tons. 20 million tons. 100 million tons. It's all worthless and no one will ever devise a method to extract any value from it whatsoever.
Is that what you're saying? That they should all just give up and go home?

You give me this thing about how titanium is processed (which doesn't state why it's not able to process the deposits on the beaches, by the way) but completely glance over the fact that I've already conceded that I don't know about the technology used to extract titanium. I don't know why it can't be used on the deposits on the beach. I don't know what would be required to process the deposits. But I do know that ingenuity is the mother of invention. And that where there's a will there's a way. And that people power could easily make a process that might seem uncostly in first world countries more cost-effective in a land where people work for pennies.

 

Not exactly. There is some benefit, but the largest cost, as it has been for over a century, is in the plant and the technical know how.

It is midly applicable, but is not the driver, hence your cheap shot about cheap labour is not erally sensible or anything.

LIke I said, Boeing are making aircraft parts there, and they arent doing it in Hong Kon. (no room) China was the worlds largest single consumer of cement last year, because of the electronics factories etc being built in its southern enterprise zones. and so on.

No, that any cheap comment about cheap labour and necessity somehow overcoming simple economic and physical facts is unworthy and pointless. If the nodules are present in enough quantitites that they can be picked up, they might earn some labourers a little cash for doing so. But that wont jump start any kind of Titanium processing system or cause any locals to somehow become the kind of industrial genius who can replace a processing system that has been in use for over 50 years without being replaced. Intellectual and physical capital counts, its taht simple.

Not exactly. The cheap people power merely might make such an operation cheaper compared to western countries, but doesnt excape the simple unavoidable fact that you need large amounts of industrial capital and knowledge to get the Ti processing up and running. Have you tried to invent your way out of a mud hut, with no prior education and knowledge?

 

And that's why we're outsourcing jobs in the states. Because it's the plant that's expensive. Not the workers.
Riiiight.

Cheap shot?
There's your real bone of contention.
You don't like it that I'm being truthful about the cheap labor in the third world
"Come on, guys. They're way behind but they're trying. Let's all give them a big round of applause for being such good sports about their miserable overpopulation and backward ways. Hip hip..."

Cheap labor affects every facet of the operation. Not only is manual labor cheap but so too is the more technical jobs. And even if the technical jobs are better paid than the manual laborers, having such cheap costs in one area of business means that you can spend more money in another area and still be cost-effective.

Again. This is completely off-topic, except in your righeous quest to defend their honor or something.

I don't care how much cement they bought. How many radios did they buy? That's the question. Or how many 747's?

Cheap comment. Invert Nexus, you're a bad boy for badmouthing those people that are trying so hard.

Irrelevant.
Take your heroic defense elsewhere. I'm not interested.

I'm not saying that it will overcome anything. Only make things that wouldn't be considered cost-effective over here more cost-effective over there.

Yes. And with the possibility of profits because of cheap labor in both the manufacture of any plant and the workers in said plant would draw investors from all over. Genius is a dime a dozen.

Now it's you who are downplaying these poor downtrodden people. They can have no innovation as they're all ignorant third-world savages, says Guthrie. There is no Indian equivalent to Edison and never will be.

Shame shame, Guthrie boy. How could you be so derogatory of such a stout-hearted people. I mean. They're trying their best.

 

The team scanned 4 spots along India's Eastern coast, each segment being 10-12 klicks. That means they scanned at least 2/25 of the total, and the four locations they scanned at were pretty far apart.

As the article also stated, most titanium ore deposits lie on the 10-15 meters under the sea bed where it would be hard to dig up, as India lacks the industrial equipment to do it.

Scraping up titanium ore and smelting it in a factory requires very little techinical know how. You have to heat steel to 3000 degrees to smelt it, and that's old tech. Surely it wouldn't be hard to build a big furnace. Besides, lives are cheaper in India. The envrionmental and safety regulations are much less enforced there than in the West. It would probably be pretty cheap to make titanium.
Don't forget that the Indians are an up-and-coming nation brimming with technical know how and the people power to boot. It's like you think that India doesn't even have a saw mill there. It's a fucking industrialized nation. If they can make nukes, they can melt some metal. The issue with Titanium, as with most ores, is feasibility of mineral extraction. And right now, it's very feasible.