no human being can PROOF there is a god.. i dont care how much you "know" there is or about how you just gotta have "faith" wtf is faith anyways! i think faith = bs and i think that if u beleive in god thats all ur doing.. is beleiving... u dont know ur just BELEIVING u dicks.. ok the point of this thread is that no one knows if there is a god or not... there is more of a chance that aliens made us i think.. ( and im pretty sure they have the knowledge to do so considering all abductee decriptions show there head to be twice as big as humans meaning a bigger brain and with the ways there saucers move and stuff i really think they have been around longer than humans more than likely meaning they have prolly already tapped into there whole brain and dont just use a crappy 10% or so like humans.. im positive there is ET in the universe that could and prolly already has created inteligence.. How do we not know we were not created from another civilization far more advanced than us? how is that not possible? someone please tell me how this could not very well be possible...
Humans don't use 10% of their brain. That's a myth. If you've ever watched PBS, Discovery Channel and have seen shows about the brain, humans use pretty much all of it. How is it more likely that aliens exist than God existing? What is the evidence on both sides here? Ben
That's the thing KB, neither side has solid evidence. Neither side can be dismissed, and niether side can be disproven. Not until we find hard evidence to support either one. Personally, I find the idea of ET's more plausible than one omipotent creator. Humanity's lifetime in the universe is so small when compared to the rest of the universe that it's almost ignorable. In billions of years, in trillions of galaxies, around countless stars on potentially trillions of planets, and we're the only species to acheive intelligence and sentience.... anywhere. I don't think so. IMO at least.
As I have many times said...I can NOT prove a human like supernatural diety is sitting far off in outer space. As for God...I understand He is Life, Existance, the Great I AM. He is the force and energy that creates and sustains existance. The breath in our nostrils. That I can prove...because we do in fact exist and are sustained by energies and forces we can neither see nor define. Based on the fact that existance is such a meticulously detailed and intricatly perfect thing...I would find it absurd to reason that those forces are random and everything is a happy accident...the odds are highly against that possibility. Creation is far to perfect in form and function to be an onslaught of trillions of coincidentally perfect apparitions that all amazingly seem to fit together, follow a well defined pattern and continue working towards perfection.
That I can prove...because we do in fact exist and are sustained by energies and forces we can neither see nor define. What would these energies and forces be, scientifically I mean? I would find it absurd to reason that those forces are random and everything is a happy accident...the odds are highly against that possibility. In fact, the odds are not against it at all. There are no odds right now, there is simply not enough information to form any. Creation is far to perfect in form and function to be an onslaught of trillions of coincidentally perfect apparitions that all amazingly seem to fit together, follow a well defined pattern and continue working towards perfection. I agree, creation is too perfect. It conveniently answeres all our deepest questions while at the same time requireing no evidence or scientific proof. This should set off alarms right away. It's like the Celcius system of heat measurement. After scientists found that water melts at 32 F and boils at 212 F they wanted to create a new system of measurement based on this most basic and important substance. And so, C was born. It conforms to the melting and boiling points of water perfectly, 0 C and 100C. How do we know religion is not an explanation thought up by a group of people thousands of years ago to explain our existance? The perfect answer is not always the right one.
Scientifically I can not prove that you are not an illusion, or a figment of a dream or some other entitys imagination. Are you really alive? Thats as scientific as it gets. We know that genetically humans and animals are amazingly accurate in their structure and design. Every organ in your body...every function of your brain....the ability to adapt and evolve to environment...just the meare fact that all your dna is such a complex yet complete microscopically minute structure. The moons orbit...creation of the tide...the seasons....the earths tilt...it is all from the largest piece to the smallest cingle atom very much a brilliant design. Millions of happy accidents that just happen to "fit" together? "Creation" simply denoted "existance". Weather it be by smoke and mirrors, big bang, star stuff..Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! or genetic mutation...we were in fact CREATED by something or someone. To have a reaction...one must first have an ACTION. We know pretty assuradly that humans are not infinate, nor was anything on the earth...so there must have been an action that caused the reaction of formation of the elements and species and ALL EXISTANCE. SOMETHING MOVED...required energy. The question is...was it a random burst of energy with no purpose or an intelligent energy acting with a purpose or design? I say, it is all to well fit together to be random. All religions do is rebuild and redesign the boxes they chose to place that Power in to in order to make it more understandable or convienient for themselves.
Decko, There are many thousands of gods that have been defined by man, which definition would you like proved? Ok, let’s assume, for the sake of argument, you mean the Christian god, in which case, NO you don’t want proof. The last thing we need is for such an atrocious concept to be actually true. Christianity is based on an authoritarianism terror regime, this god rules by commanding his creations to do as he says or face brutal eternal punishment. What might be acceptable is a being that teaches and guides and where his omnipotence means that no one can ever fail and where hellish torture and torment are not needed. Taken I don’t think you can prove that either. Here is an article by Nick Bostram (Yale) who argues that there is a large probability that we are only simulations, e.g. The Matrix, The 13th Floor, Permutation City, etc, see web site - http://www.simulation-argument.com/ You seem to be stretching the term ‘existence’ to represent a whole host of things. The question is about the existence of a god not about anything else. Either god is an entity in its own right and the universe is separate, or if god is the universe then let’s call it the universe and divest ourselves of the meaningless term ‘god’. And ‘meticulously detailed and intricately perfect’? What do you mean by this? Most of the universe is in a state of massive destructive and creative chaos. Stars are exploding and new ones are being created, galaxies are colliding and black holes are absorbing all matter in sight. Is this your idea of perfect? If you are talking about the basic laws of physics then you might make more sense, but these tend to be very simple and depend on the four basic forces (strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravity), which we have defined although we have yet to understand all the implications of their reactions. Are there other forces? Maybe, let’s keep looking. But it would appear that the material universe has no choice but to react according to the attractive and repulsive forces that we have discovered. The effects may seem intricate but the basics are not. DNA, for example is yet another example of simplicity, it contains only 4 nucleotides (adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G), and cytosine (C)), but repeated in different combinations. Consider also a house made of bricks. The basic unit is a simple brick. Put them together in different arrangements and you can create apparent complexity. Exactly the opposite. Given infinite time in an infinite universe and a very small set of basic attractive and repulsive forces then everything we now observe is inevitable. Creation? Perfect? Simple basics, plenty of time, and attractive forces, should be adequate to account for everything. But the final results are a mess. Most living things decay and die. We suffer from terrible diseases and many are born with serious deformities. If we were designed this way then the designer seriously screwed up. But if you consider a long evolutionary process consisting of many mutations and adaptations then that easily explains our current imperfect biological forms. No. You are reversing cause and effect. We evolved because the circumstances were appropriate. Find another similar environment elsewhere among the trillions of galaxies and a similar result is likely. We are the end product and not the cause. You are claiming a fact again based on false assumptions. Something that evolves cannot be said to have been created, but if we were created by someone then who created that creator? If you follow that whole chain of reasoning then the conclusion has to be that something is infinite, i.e. has no beginning, and hence had no cause. The simplest explanation is that the universe is infinite. Imaginatively creating a fantasy concept of a supernatural realm is what is really absurd. Cris
Christianity is based on an authoritarianism terror regime, this god rules by commanding his creations to do as he says or face brutal eternal punishment. What might be acceptable is a being that teaches and guides and where his omnipotence means that no one can ever fail and where hellish torture and torment are not needed. I agree.
Decko. Why do you want proof of something that you don´t believe in anyway? If you want proof then you must in some way have left the option open that there actually is such a phenomenon. Otherwise, why care? :bugeye:
Just a simple fact of mathematics. We have encountered life. We have not however encountered any form omniscience. Our planet is only different from the other planets in our solar system to a degree. Planets exist outside our solar system. There are simply too many stars to believe that not one of those other stars can maintain life. Such a belief can only be viewed as ego-centric and petty. You aren't like the rest. The only other person I have known to express this view is my grandmother. This is a complement in that she is the most wise among any I have yet to encounter. She appreciates every incarnation of life. It is closer to my position than any religious-based philosophy. This position is one which I can respect. This is the difficult aspect of our differeing views. It is deeply rooted in a subtle superiority complex. You wish to distance yourself from all that is around you. For some it is more limited to forms of life. For people like you the line is drawn at inanimate objects. From my perspective we all have the same basic ingredients. We are all matter and energy. It is a position strengthened by a fear of death. We are at odds with our instinctual programming. We need to survive, so we procreate. Is that sufficient? Apparently not, so we find ways of extending our lives and look for answers regarding our status after death. We never realize that we don't need a soul or afterlife, however. I find it enough that I will simply return myself to that which I have heralded from. Perhaps there is confusion about what constitutes consciousness. There is also a misunderstanding about who we are. Remember that your body recycles itself on occasion, meaning we are never the same person. From this view we are merely an aspect of the system of life, which as a whole has either no consciousness or a shared consciousness. Actually it is not. Consider the appendix. At this moment it serves no function, but it has potential to burst killing the host. That is far from perfect. We can only see in one spectrum. We are forced to murder in order to supply for our consumption and there is often supreme chaos among the masses of people. Perfect this ain't.
Taken, While you're talking about the "perfect" design of human beings, you might like to consider this: In the human eye, the light sensitive cells are <b>behind</b> the blood vessels which supply the retina. Any sensible designer would surely put them in front. And in fact, some animals, such as octopuses, <i>do</i> have them in front. Does that mean God designed octopuses better than human beings? Does it mean we're not perfect after all?
I would find it absurd to reason that those forces are random and everything is a happy accident...the odds are highly against that possibility. Everything we have discovered with modern physics points to a completely random and chaotic universe. What you may call "empty" space, is actually a sea of virtual particles appearing at random in matter/antimatter pairs only to annihalate each other a split second later. None of Newton's clockwork laws of physics can be used to explain anything at the quantum level (subatomic level) simply because it is all random chaos. Things like Heisanberg's Uncertainty Principle simply add to this random chaotic nature of the universe. It seems the universe is far from perfect, so why is it so outrageous that a completely random and chaotic universe was created completely at random? I say, it is all to well fit together to be random. First, it doesn't all fit together well. There are a multitude of exceptions to rules and anomilies in the universe. But even if it did, why would we expect it to do anything other than fit together well? If it didn't, we wouldn't be here to ask that question.
Xelios, <i>Everything we have discovered with modern physics points to a completely random and chaotic universe.</i> No it doesn't. There would be no derivable laws like F=ma if the universe was completely random and chaotic. All physics reflects regularities in the universe - order and non-randomness. <i>None of Newton's clockwork laws of physics can be used to explain anything at the quantum level (subatomic level) simply because it is all random chaos.</i> No. That's not true. Newton's laws were just found not to apply to things at the quantum level. But we have a very nice non-random theory called quantum mechanics which explains the quantum level. <i>Things like Heisanberg's Uncertainty Principle simply add to this random chaotic nature of the universe.</i> The uncertainty principle is a consequence of that nice quantum theory mentioned previously. <i>First, it doesn't all fit together well. There are a multitude of exceptions to rules and anomilies in the universe.</i> Such as?
Proof of God..... This seems to be a very wish of a great many people. If God could be proven to exist, many of the religious would at least have confirmation that the religion they worshipped and the lives they lead were right or wrong. What I dont understand is why would God not interact physically with his subjects? He is all powerfull and able to perform miracles, then why hide from us? Why does he enforce rules and punish the wicked all from beyond the clouds and beyond the prying dieing eyes of his subjects? Proof of his existance would do wonders for the human spirit and for the basis of our lives. Surely if God see's us as his children, the thought of walking talking and sharing our lives with us in person would seem a good thing much like you and I feel about and enjoy the company of our creations,... our children. God Came, he created, then left quick smart and hasnt come back.... wonder why? cheers RazZ:bugeye:
it's depends... I think someone become belive or not belive to God depends on: - his/her religion, - his/her way to get information about his/her religion, - God himself want him/her to become belivier or not. The point 1 & 2 we have way to solve it: On problem (1) you should change your religion, after you study as many religion's "holy book" as you can. compare it to another. choose one the most make sense to you. On problem (2) you should get the information about the religion itself from the most experties you can found. On problem (3) if God don't want you to be His servant, well... what you can only do is to prepare to go to da Hell :-D
Everything we have discovered with modern physics points to a completely random and chaotic universe. No it doesn't. There would be no derivable laws like F=ma if the universe was completely random and chaotic. All physics reflects regularities in the universe - order and non-randomness. Sorry, I was thinking of quantum physics at the time but failed to write it down. Below the subatomic scale is a seething sea of probability and chaos, there may be glimmers of order on which we establish formulas, but overall the emphasis is on chaos. No. That's not true. Newton's laws were just found not to apply to things at the quantum level. But we have a very nice non-random theory called quantum mechanics which explains the quantum level. So, Newton's laws cannot be used to explain anything on the quantum level, right? Quantum machanics is still only explaining those glimmers of order in the sea of chaos, while I admit it is doing so very nicely, it is hardly predicting the exact location of any particle at a given time, due to the HUP. Probabilities and odds are still the only thing that can do that, which suggests the nature of the quantum universe is random. Such as? For example, virtual particle pairs. Remember, energy cannot be created or destroyed. These virtual particles seem to pop up from nowhere, "borrowing" their energy from space itself, then annihalate each other. All the forces in the universe seem to come together at one point, except gravity. For some reason it is way off balance compared to the others. Just a couple of examples.
Brownian movement defines a random set of behaviors at the atomic level. This is where chaos is introduced. Also there is that famous quote from Einstein: "God does not throw dice." that was rebutted by Stephen Hawkings "Not only does he throw dice, but he puts he hides them in places where we can't find them." The laws of physics define a set of rules which are unbreakable. Within the context of those rules, there is a degree of random activity. Not every piece of matter is dispersed evenly. In a way you are both right.
razz: God was, He created, we rebelled, He wrote us a book, we ignored, he sent His Son, we killed His Son, he rose again, many still reject... But despite this, he still loves us! Decko: Erm... Who made the aliens? Even more advanced aliens? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ~Caleb
Caleb So... you have met God or Jesus in person and they told you they loved you?......... No? Maybe he sent you a fax? or a parcel by courier? What proof do you have that Jesus and God existed.....Besides the bible, which also can't truly be varified since christians in general dont believe in science. You have never met God Nor ever physically had any Contact with his son..so how do you know for sure God even exists in the first place? As for who made the aliens... Id say Evolution, or may even and alien manufacturing plant outside universal star cluster 12. In all seriousness there are literally infinite possiblilities how life began not all of them have to begin with your God. cheers RazZ
So you all just decided to neatly ingnore my little comment there... And what is even more astounding is that you give personal characteristics and made up personality traits to the assumed God that you still claim to have no belief in. Get a grip of yourself, people! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
