Americas lastest act of barbarity revealed

''U.S. oil companies, which indirectly bought some 40 percent of Iraqi oil through the oil-for-food programme, paid the kickbacks (indirectly),'' Halliday told IPS.

Surenderer, the man who made this quote (Halliday), as you have stated, is a member of the United Nations and is attempting to defend that organization. Thats like asking Hussein whether or not he committed genocide against the Kurds....

It is true that some american oil companies did play a role in buying Iraqi oil, no doubt...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=295926&page=1

Those companies that included Chevron and Exon may be indicted. I doubt, however, it was only american companies involved. Secondly, it was the U.N. who was controlling that program and whos job it was to keep companies like this from taking advantage.

Benon Sevan, executive director of the Oil for food program, is being seriously investigated for his major role in the scandal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A48225-2004Nov13?language=printer

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132832,00.html

I think it would be obvious that if the United States was making that much money on the oil for food programs, an invasion would never have taken place. Other nations who were owed billions of dollars (France, China, Russia) had a considerably higher motive to look the other way.

 

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Well, since american policy hasn't changed for decades you could say that somebody has to be responsible. You can blame it on individual politicians of course, but somehow it seems rather structural in american policy.

I guess it is similar to the debate of witnessing a crime. There is a bunch of people on the street. They see someone get robbed. They do nothing. Not even call the police. Are they 'innocent'? Maybe. But let us assume that the robber is employed by all the people on the street. Are the people then 'innocent'? Maybe if it happens once beyond their control, but not if it happens daily.

 

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I cant believe you guys got me arguing this side of this argument

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.... Bush had 40+ million peole vote against him this time and lost the popular vote the 1st time so I would say that it is ridcoulous to hold the American public reponsible....you wanna kill someone kill the press because they suppress information that could enlighten people to the crimes my Goverment commits

 

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well America is blaming Iraqis for empowering Sadam (which is nonsense since he was a dictator :bugeye: )

and America didnt seem to bother too much about the 1.5 million people it killed and then 30 million peoples lives it destroyed with the sanctions which where to get rid of Sadam and WMD's that never exsisted. the ultimate collective punishment.

if Americans dont want to get blown up back home in America or US soldries accross the world dont want to get attacked then its simple. America has got to stop going on the offensive against the Arab world aswell the other areas its surpresses (the carabean)

Americans are responsibile for the actions of their government since they voted for this maniac after being porived a complete liar.

and even if they aren't. 100,000 Iraqis are not responsible for Sadam. the Americans are the ones who supported, trained and financed him. Iraqis dying because of americas aggressive assualt on Iraq are not responsible fo the country's WMD's. oops i forgot Iraq doesn't have WMD's!!

 

Almost ALL American voters (whether they voted for bush or not) profit from the policies of their government. Ex. You think that only republicans drive cheap gas guzzling SUVs? It really is not enough to say, “I voted against this administration therefore I am innocent of all their crimes” .. meanwhile you continue heating your house, work for companies which profit directly or indirectly.., etc.. etc… We sit in our comfortable homes each night and watch the extreme pain and suffering caused by our governments. Then we make a mental note: “I will do something about it! I will get my ass up and vote (against this government) in 4 years!” You try convincing a mother watching her 12 yr old son screaming and dieing on a stretcher with both his legs blown off: “Don’t hate me please, I voted against bush!”
As a citizens of countries which claim to be the most democratic, it is hypocritical to not accept 100% responsibility for the continuing policies of our governments.

 

Hey, I gotta agree with that. I like calling the "news" the "olds" because there isn't anything new being brought to the plate with our media but rather just recycled stories played day in and day out. I feel sorry for the people that were affected by the tsunami (or other similar non-stop stories) but damn, that doesn't mean I wanna hear about it all day long for numerous days straight and nothing else. I wanna keep up with other events too, ya know. Thank god for the internet! I seriously loathe our biased and censored media.

- N

 

Just a quick sidebar, Undecided, why do you believe that suicide bombing, as a tactic, works?

It spreads fear...that's the point of the attacks it has little to no military purpose. Terrorism is not supposed to defeat militaries it is supposed to defeat the will of your enemy. And since Israel has tonnes of emigration and a generally bad economy due to the insecurity, plus the billions needed to secure teh country money that could have been better spent on education, or poverty eradication is spend on stopping these bombers.

I cant see any evidence in the last twenty years that shows suicide bombings have advanced the Palistinian cause. If anything, I belive that the suicide bombing have been counter-prodctive.

I agree with that completely…but that’s only one way of looking at it. One argument that could be easily posed is what is bad for Israel is innately good for the Palestinians…

 

Collective guilt for the US government? This has to be the stupidest, most unrealistic reasoning I have heard in a long time. And with the Bush admin is power, that is saying a lot. What happened to common sense in this thread?

Remember each person is an individual with many responsibilities. A person has to weigh the realism and consequences of his actions. A man with a family cannot grab a gun and attack the US government. It just doesn't work and isn't realistic.

If you want to hold an entire populace, without exception, responsible for the action of their government, then you and Bush share much in common.

 

Surenderer, that quote (Hermann Goering) is over-used, and out-dated. The common people do want war, most Americans want the war in Iraq. The idea that people do not want war was a misinterpretation by fascist nations of democracies.

They thought that democracies were weak, and therefore would have to significantly lie to their people to get them to fight.

The truth is the opposite, democracies fight harder because they usually fight with people who agreed to go to war, while totalitarian regimes typically fight with people who want to destroy the regime they are pressed in fighting for.

 

So basically you haven't read my posts and are calling me an idiot now?

 

OK I got it now so if the dutch govt does anything untoward in the world then the disgruntled party is correct in targeting you, your family or any dutch citizen regardless of politics or actions of said person.

You don't need to use germany as a case study just look at history, how often ANY people carry out armed rebellion against their govt. More to the point how often do people carry out armed rebellion against a govt because of foreign policy.

Well you might want to take that up with the allied heads of state from the time because it seems they forgot to put about 60 million people on the witness dock at Nurnberg. I would also contend that it was exactly this type of collective punishment that lead to the articles in the treaty of Versailles and opened the way for the nazis to take power in the first place.

The rule?

I agree that there is some collective responibility but I think you are being overly simplistic about where you lay it.

Well that is convenient for you isn't it

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The Declaration of Independance is an outline of ideals and as with all ideals they are difficult and costly (in human and economic terms) to realize.

Well in my 40 years 10 of them spent overseas this is the first time in my life that I feel ashamed/embarrased of my country. I felt good when the US intervened in Bosnia in the face of european apathy, and (to a lesser degree because lives were lost) when they intervened in Kosovo again because europe was too weak or unwilling to lift a finger.
The main problem with your position is that it paints all 300 million americans with the same brush regardless of political affiliation or personal actions. It in effect targets everyone similarly which can only succeed in forcing those who are friendly to you into an alliance with those who don't give a shit about you.

Perfect example you have got surrenderer defending the US

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part 1

There is a collective responsibility of all american citizens for their government. That is the essence of a democracy. The government is the chosen representation of the people. Obviously we all know that a real democracy doesn't exist, but amuse me by agreeing that the government is the representation of the people.

If the US government has been responsible for attrocities for decades, couldn't we then say that these attrocities have been accepted and approved by the people who are represented by their government.

Unless you want to claim of course that in fact the US government is not a representation of the people, but a dictatorial institution. Then I quite agree that the american people are innocent.

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part 2

Of course you now use the argument that part of the american people are innocent because they don't agree with their government. I'm afraid that t is obvious that in a democracy people will disagree with their government. That is because the government is chosen by a fraction of the people. And indeed individual innocence can always be claimed. But not that of the people. Therefore there is not such a thing as the innocent american citizen persee, because citizen refers to my mind as the collective, the abstract citizen. The abstract citizen has chosen for their government. It could be that the left leg of this abstract citizen is innocent, but the arm still plunged a dagger into another citizens heart. Should only the arm feel guilty? Is the leg to blaim? Is the leg truly innocent?
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part3
You keep refering to the Dutch government and the actions I should take. But the dutch government isn't very agressive compared to the US I am afraid. Also there is nothing like the declaration of independence which urges the dutch citizens to fight an oppressive government. Personally I do not agree with my government.
Would I have a responsibilty to do something if the Dutch government would do something to the world. Yes and No. Yes, I would need to do something if I would want to call myself innocent. And no I wouldn't call myself innocent. I would not be innocent. I am not innocent. I fuck over many countires everyday by just being a citizen of the Netherlands. I am quite aware of this. And the Netherlands don't even fuck over so much o the world as the US does. You cannot be on top of the world and live a comfortable live without fucking over other people in other countries.
The only thing I can feel innocent about is that my government isn't responsible for genocide, torture and some of the other nastier stuff. Well, not in the last 50 years that is. Don't ask what we did in Indonesia. At least we learned something.

 

I dont know if it's overused or not so i cant comment on that but this is the exact strategy that Bush and Co has used to pacify the American people. Democracies may not be weak but Republics sure are. The people didnt want this war the politicians did......are they(the politicians) in any danger? their kids? nope. Has the Republicans told protesters that they are "aiding and helping the enemy"? Have they said that those who protest are unAmerican? Have they lied to the American people? Has their been any accountablity?......If that quote is incorrect please show me how :m:

 

if he lost then how come none of you killed him for his fraud??

your press is controlled by your government, you wolud have to kill the government to fix or kill the press

 

This really is the stupidest bunch of crap I've read in a long time. Intelligent community? Bullshit. Extremists of any stripe can be brilliant in certain ways, but are almost always idiot-savants. Very narrowminded and blind to to the complexities of the real world. Collective guilt? You are insane. Talk about the real consequences of your statements. Think!

 

Since when can an intelligent mind not come with a counter argument other than to say that the other one is stupid and insane?

 

Call it what you wish. Making extreme statements to stimulate a discussion is one thing, but certain stances being seriously persued here can be seen as rediculous by any rational person (Americans excluded - we're not rational).

 

So with other words, you don't have any viewpoint to offer yourself.

 

No. None whatsoever.

 

It is good to hear that you never thought about your own responsibilities as a citizen.

And it is also good to hear that you are highly intolerant of any viewpoint other than your own.