At Last - Washington state has a Governor

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    dont they always exploite the millarty???

    i mean that seems to be there stock standered way of doing buiness
     
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  3. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    So the Democrats managed to steal an election. JFK would be proud. Notice the logic. Keep doing recounts until the Democrat finally wins one, and then stop. What ever happened to best two out of three? This was Al Gore's strategy until he was shut down by the supreme court. We have to rid ourselves of the notion that hand recounts are MORE accurate than machine recounts. Counting is what machines do best. Furthermore, they are nonpartisan. The fact that a bunch of democratic party hacks managed to come up with the votes the democrats needed to win in a hand recount is not at all surprising. Hell, I'd go so far as to say we should outlaw hand recounts all together.
     
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  5. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    So they "found" a bunch of new votes from King County and got a liberal judge to allow them. Now the vote count is higher than the number of registered voters. Many "voters" registrations have the same address on them. Dead people ended up voting. The Democrats are proving more and more that the only way they can win is with fraud and deceit. They have lost the hearts and minds of the American people so this is the only way they have a chance.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    "Middle America" - Mmmm, Fewments!

    Why is it that conservatives treat political discourse as if all they need to do is repeat buzzwords and catch-phrases without any hint of factual support?

    I mean--

    --what sort of dignity or respect do we owe such ignorance of facts and due process? After all, the conservative voice overlooks an opportunity to address the electoral system in general in favor of seeking to trash Democrats. We should not be surprised.

    Or this:

    If the poster is unwilling to either consider the facts before us, or at least assert something more detailed as an alternative data set, how can we see this as anything more than the pathetic hyperbole of denial?

    Perhaps conservatives still feel the sting from Florida, in 2000, when they got away with it, but everybody knows what they did. Of course, I don't see why they're so worried about it. As results across the nation show, "middle America" craves fewments.

    Conservatives should consider being more conservative with their pretenses of stupidity. Sooner or later, people will believe them at their word. Or, worse yet, they'll stay that way. Or have we reached that point already?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2005
  8. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa

    If you want me to cite some sources for my statement here they are.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110006139

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002147549_recount11m.html

    If you want to go down the Florida 2000 road again, Remember that George W Bush won every single time the votes were counted. An army of journalists went down to Florida and conducted their own counts. GWB won every time. If Algore figured he could have won with a statewide recount he would have called for that. Instead he focused on heavily Democrat areas to try and fish for new votes.
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    What, do you want me to write your argument for you?

    Let's see ... from your links:

    Oh, yes, the Democrats are certainly trying to hide, aren't they? "Hello? King County Elections? Yes, this is the Democratic Party. Even though it hurts our cause to mention it, you still don't have it right."

    Just how seriously should I take partisan chest-beating and blogchismo? I don't blame John Fund, though. The Thornburgh co-chaired report on CBS came out later in the day, so he couldn't possibly have realized that Rather's great crime was trusting the integrity of his bosses and co-workers. But beyond that, what no conservative accusations have done yet is draw any significant connection between the problems of our state electoral system and the Democrats.

    In fact, even the OpinionJournal article falls apart for the facts that it ignores.

    Conservatives would pretend problems in state-level electoral setups are unique to Washington in 2004, yet of course we hear them defending a Republican Secretary of State in Ohio whose credibility has further come under fire in light of his breaking the law. The fact is that no electoral system in the United States is perfect. Florida, in 2000, for instance, disenfranchised thousands of people. That's what conservatives don't want to talk about in Flordia: what would the final count have been if 45,000 people--mostly Democrats--hadn't had their voter registrations cancelled? In an effort to avoid such a debacle in 2004, Florida put aside its controversial list of "felons". Even without Blackwell's latest infraction of the law in Ohio--it is, after all, superficially irrelevant to the election at this point--it's not as if these last couple federal elections are the first time in U.S. history there's been a problem. It only matters to Republicans in Washington state because it was a close election. But you can't change the past, and that's what the GOP is seeking to do. They're so anxious to malign the past in order to muddy the future they're missing a great opportunity to actually lead some levelheaded election reform. I know it sucks, but until you or the GOP or somebody can make a substantial and indicting connection, you can't blame all of history on the freaking Democrats.

    And what is this complaint about enhanced ballots? For instance, why didn't we hear the GOP hollering about this at the time? It's only become a point of focus after the fact, like every other GOP complaint.

    At the end, as well, the OpinionJournal article shows its faults: "You can expect the new media to talk up that historical example a lot as they seek to instill in the public's mind the belief that Washington state's election for governor isn't over just because after Wednesday someone occupies the office."

    The "new media" of John Fund's article, the conservative talk radio hosts and bloggers, don't aim to deal in facts, but rather to convince people that a certain condition is true. Should we be impressed that the GOP hopes to sell Bibles to the Devil himself? Or should we just acknowledge that Old Scratch is merely helping them along their inevitable way?

    And what are the conservative solutions? Suspend the constitutional right to vote. We've heard that already. Heck, even you've complained that the people's right to vote was recognized. Umm ... throw out due process and give the Republican's a second chance. I had much respect for Rossi's silence until he made that bogus, bratty appeal. If you look above your post, you'll see Madanthonywayne proposing the removal of human oversight. As one Tacoma reader pointed out to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "the subsequent machine and hand recounts were conducted carefully, scrutinized every step of the way by representatives of both parties". This, naturally--according to Madanthony's proposal--means the recount can't possibly be accurate, reasonably accurate, or more accurate than the original count.

    If you see some connection between various and diverse facts that supports your assertion that Democrats can only win with fraud and deceit, by all means put some effort into expressing it. Even your own sources undermine your argument. If you've got a case, where is it?

    Stealing an election? How is it that Republican county auditors and a Republican Secretary of State are helping Democrats steal an election?

    It wouldn't be nearly so irritating if conservatives could put a couple cents' effort into their paranoia, but if you can't be bothered to take what you say seriously, why should anyone else?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Ervin, Keith. "New error found in vote tally". SeattleTimes.com, January 11, 2005. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002147549_recount11m.html

    Fund, John. "Don't Count Rossi Out". OpinionJournal.com, January 10, 2005. See http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110006139

    Porter, David. "Subsequent counts are anything but fraudulent". SeattlePI.com, January 10, 2005. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/207032_ltrs10.html
     
  10. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002103896_evans30.html

    This story came out between the second and the third recount. Note that the second recount had Rossi winning. This story is concerned with the fact the second recount was the most accurate since it used a combination Hand and machine counting system.

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    No matter how careful the hand recount is conducted human error will always be introduced when dealing with such a large number of ballots. Plus the very act of handling the ballots especially punch cards can damage them. In the Florida recount there were chads scattered around the counting tables. Fallen chads can change the entire ballot and make it uncountable. In Washington State many of the ballots were reported to have had white out applied to them. When dealing with large numbers there is always going to be a margin of error. The problem arises when an election is within the margin. Recount 100 times and you will get 100 different numbers. Which one do you go by? To recount until you get the results you want is just a manipulation of the system. After the first count Christine Gregoire should have conceded graciously and tried again next time. Now she will be stepping into the governorship with a cloud over her head. Polls show the majority of Washington residence think she stole the election. She will be dogged by this fact for the next 4 years. She will have her prize but at what cost? It is possible to win and still be a loser.

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    This image is of fallen chads that were found around the recount tables in the Florida 2000 election.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2005
  11. shrubby pegasus Registered Senior Member

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    454
    i disagree that this has to be the case. i mean look back to bush's first election. a significant portion of the american population believed that bush stole the election in florida. miraculously though he was reelected. with a a strong enough spin and propaganda machine you can get media addicted people to believe in anything
     
  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Brutus1964

    I don't quibble with the word "article" in cases like this, but that "story" is an opinion piece. It is written by former Republican state Governor and former U.S. Senator Dan Evans. Not only does the article itself contain distortions important to establishing perspective, but also his endorsement of the ReVote Washington campaign. What Evans fails to do is establish why law and due process should be thrown out in order to give the GOP a second chance. He complains--after-the-fact--about ballot enhancement; why did we not hear from the GOP while this was going on? His account of provisional ballots disagrees with even the GOP's publicly-expressed complaints; Evans seeks to shift even greater burden for human error to King County. He complains about the military ballot, but we must look to those responsible for the security situation in Iraq when mail trucks are getting blown up. He complains about the discovery of additional ballots; the courts have decided which ballots deserve consideration.

    In endorsing the ReVote Washington campaign, he's calling for the state to abandon its own due process in order to give his party another chance.

    As to the article you provided, his point about the accuracy of the hand/machine count does not account for human error that limits the count. As with the GOP argument about ballots and due process in King County, the only viable solution is to suspend people's right to vote.

    When Evans writes, "The truth is, every legitimate vote has been counted, by the most accurate means we possess," he is, in fact, incorrect. His point depends on the suspension of due process for voters. This argument even landed in court, and because of that, 722 ballots were given due process where they had not been previously. His statement is intended to create the false impression that giving properly-cast ballots due process is somehow illegitimate.

    We should not be surprised that this point echoes the GOP in Florida, 2000, and the actions of Ohio's Republican Secretary of State.

    To reiterate a prior point: "This election may have been a hell of a mess, but the GOP are more interested in getting a second chance than they are in working toward reform."

    Just like the Democrats got the short end of the stick in court in Florida, so it is for Republicans in Washington state. Just like Al Gore sucked it up and shot down every well-intended challenge to the 2000 election according to procedure and duty, the GOP should consider respecting the rules in place.

    Reform? That need has been widely acknowledged already (see #736620). "Retroactive" reform, however, designed to give the GOP another chance to win the office at the ballot box, would be at least as corrupting as the GOP asserts the outcome of due process to be.

    As to your own argument, Brutus, I wanted to make a couple of points clear:

    There's nothing about those sentences that is accurate. Wait, almost nothing. I agree with the bit about 100 recounts and 100 results:

    (1) You go by the last one, or at least that's what the law says for now.
    (2) The law in Washington state provides for the initial recount, the second recount, and an optional third recount at the provisional expense of the party requesting it. If the third recount still showed Rossi's favor, the Democrats would have been out of cards to play.
    (3) After the first count, Gregoire should have conceded graciously? State law mandates a recount when the first count is so close. Why do conservatives disdain law and due process so much? The question should be reform, not abandonment.​

    The word "stole" is a giveaway. Nobody has provided the connection that takes this messy election and puts it into the league of one stolen.

    Possible, but if conservatives make that their focus for the next term, it will only confirm people's suspicions about what's really important to the GOP and its supporters.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Evans, Daniel J. "Governor's race hand count would be inaccurate, unwise". SeattleTimes.com, November 30, 2004. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002103896_evans30.html

    Evans, Dan. "Statement of Governor Dan Evans". ReVoteWA.com. December 31, 2004. See http://www.revotewa.com/endorsement.htm
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Just a brief irony, and nothing more:

    An image from the Seattle Times website:

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    Protest: "Steve Linderman of Bonney Lake yesterday gives a thumbs-down to
    supporters of Christine Gregoire and urges a revote. Gregoire supporters and opponents
    gathered outside the Capitol in Olympia as the Legislature certified her as governor."
    (Ellen M. Banner/Seattle Times)​

    • • •​

    In an article previously featured in this topic, State Senator Pam Roach (R-Auburn) was considering the possibility of compelling every voter in the state to register anew, and create a fresh roll. I mention this because problems with this election seem to circle 'round absentee votes, provisional ballots, and out-of-date voter rolls.

    Now, just look at the picture above. Read the sign. Read the caption.

    Bonney Lake is in Pierce County, not King. If the gentleman lives in Bonney Lake, as the caption says, he's part of the problem, or at least according to his sign.

    Not that such a fact would, in the end, diminish his complaint should some condition of fraud on the part of Democrats be established, but it is ironic, nonetheless.
    ____________________

    Image Credit:


    See Also:

    Thomas, Ralph and Andrew Garber. "Two sides rally on eve of inaugural". SeattleTimes.com, January 12, 2004. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002148486_leg12m.html

    Kamb, Lewis and Angela Galloway. "The clear winner? Most likely, it'll be election reform". SeattlePI.com, December 22, 2004. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/204795_governor22.html
     
  14. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,777
    Better a cloud than a Republican governor. In four years Rossi would have caused major irreversible damage to the environment in the process of paying off his supporters--that's what Republicans do.
     
  15. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Zanket

    I am glad I do not live in Washington State with a new Democrat governor who will impose excessive environmental regulations that will stifle the economy, and cost jobs. Housing in Washington State is expensive enough. It will rise even more with a liberal governor who will stop new housing development in the name of urban sprawl. Your taxes will have to be raised even higher to make up for all the losses when business leave or go under. Have fun in your liberal, highly taxed, no jobs to be found, can’t afford a descent place to live utopia!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2005
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    I happen to be eating fettuccine alfredo, made with the last of the half-and-half. It is for this reason that your post reminds me of the other night, when I used the rest. The pasta matched up well with the '01 syrah (Ste. Michelle) that was the only bottle of wine in the house at the time. And it is that absolutely delightful wine that actually comes to mind when I read your comment. Most certainly, our grapes are not sour enough for you up here. That I can promise.
     
  17. shrubby pegasus Registered Senior Member

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    brutus you sound like a commercial, just throwing around those GOP buzzwords. it is shame there is no actual correlation between those buzzwords and reality. it sucks that youve been suckered so much. right on about the sour grapes
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Gregoire and the Grumblers

    Gregoire Takes Office
    Rossi grumbling as Gregoire pitches to the middle

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    "My heart goes out to you". Christine Gregoire is now the governor of Washington, but Rossi hasn't quit yet.
    (Cartoon by David Horsey, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 12, 2005).​

    Governor Christine Gregoire was sworn in today, although the GOP candidate Dino Rossi believes he hasn't had his final say about the matter. In a statement, Rossi asserted, "Most people believe that Washington does not have a legitimately elected governor". In her inaugural speech, Gregoire offered empathy: "My heart goes out to you."

    She also appealed to the middle, promising to keep regulatory streamlining and small-business tax cuts near the top of her agenda. Both were central issues for the Rossi campaign. Of the "blizzard" of regulatory paperwork facing small businesses, Gregoire said, "No business in Washington should have to put up with all of that."

    Despite the campaign-related grumbling, Republicans had to give credit where due. Bellevue Republican Senator Luke Essler said, "She will not have any trouble building bridges to move forward on those ideas."

    But Republicans did show skepticism regarding cost-of-living pay raises for teachers, long-term education funding, and increased college enrollment. The notion of a $1 billion "Life Sciences Discovery Fund" to finance medical and agricultural research also failed to excite the GOP.

    This next term should be ... ah ... an interesting time. In the proverbial sense. On the one hand, it's nice that Gregoire intends to make the demonstration of reaching out, but with the GOP complaining about the idea of paying for teachers, education, and science, it's business as usual on that side of the aisle, at least.

    • • •​

    The Democrats have already sued a Democrat in this post-election brawl; will the GOP dump on a Republican? Senate Minority Leader Bill (Seriously) Finkelbeiner (R-Kirkland) did say he accepts Gregoire as governor, and planned to work with her in the spirit of cooperation. He also said he is leaving it to the courts to decide if a new election is needed. In the end, the GOP will necessarily have to dump a good portion of their ire at the door of Secretary of State Sam Reed, a fellow Republican, who has certified the election and has stated he does not see issues of fraud. I'm waiting to raise a toast and dedicate a song to the GOP until their court challenge ends, but we can lay out the first couple stanzas:

    Here we go again
    Hands making circles
    That you can’t turn back again
    Sky turning purple
    At the funeral of a friend
    Who wasn’t ready for the ending yet

    He made a giant mess
    Sloppy disaster
    And he left it for the rest
    To clean up after
    Now the lawyers do their best
    To try to divvy up
    What ever's left

    In the ending you can bet
    Everyone feels cheated ....
    _____________________

    Notes:
    Horsey, David. "Dino, Get Over It". Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 12, 2005. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=1141

    McGann, Chris. "Gregoire sworn in amid legal challenge". SeattlePI.com, January 13, 2005. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/207695_governor13.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2005
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Irrational

    Irrational
    Petition filed to recall Secretary of State Sam Reed

    Gee, do you think they're upset? Fed up with not getting their way, a yet-unnamed group has filed a petition to recall Washington Secretary of State Sam Reed. The petition was e-mailed to the state yesterday by Martin Ringhofer, who ran a failed campaign for Seattle School Board in 1999.

    Reed, a Republican who was sworn in for a new term yesterday, was not worried. "I haven't seen what they filed, but what I've done is upheld my office and complied with the state laws for Washington ... I would have to say that no one in the course of this has asked me to do anything improper or unfair."

    According to state law, once the petition has been received by the office of the Secretary of State, a Superior Court judge from Reed's legislative district must certify whether the charge is sufficient to warrant recall. Such a ruling would not speak to the truth of the charge. From that point, petition supporters have 180 days to collect over 342,000 signatures in order to secure a place on the state ballot.

    Rhetoric such as "malfeasance" and "violation of oath" swirl around Reed's certification of Democrat Christine Gregoire as governor. While acknowledging irregularities, though, Reed has said there was nothing significant enough to keep him from certifying the election results.

    • • •​

    How many examples must we endure? Once again the conservatives turn logic on its ear, this time accusing malfeasance in the act of complying with the law. This election season has seen this odd distortion in many forms. Washington state Republicans argued that due process was served only by suspension of the federal constitutional right to vote. Homophobe traditionalists in Oregon charged that democracy was suspended when county officials complied with the law. John Kerry is unfit to hold office because he voted against a bad appropriations bill including several specific military programs, but Dick Cheney should have no conflicts for sitting in front of Congress and explaining why those very programs should be terminated.

    As Zell Miller showed with his GOP convention speech, the only way to get an audience with Republicans is to lie.

    As this election shows, the only outcome Republicans find fair is one by which they win.

    It's time for the GOP and its supporters to let go of the past, and look to the future. If this election doesn't demand reform, then I have no idea where in the Universe the boundary lies. Yet conservatives won't look forward to reform as long as they think they can look back and beg for another chance.

    And they're wrong to do so. This blue state may be out of touch with "middle America", but it's not out of touch with reality. Our Republicans are, but that's the price, apparently, of playing to "middle America": oppose the U.S. Constitution, reject due process, and whine like petty children whenever you don't get your way.

    Pulling a rabbit from the hat won't help the GOP at this point. They need to be able to find an elephant in there. Pink, white, or polka-dotted, it doesn't matter: it's just not there.
    _____________________

    Notes:
    Arnold, Kyle. "Group seeks recall vote on Reed". SeattlePI.com, January 13, 2005. See http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/207617_reed13.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2005
  20. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    shrubby pegasus is right, those are just GOP buzzwords. They want you to believe that so you won't complain as they rob you. I used to live in Idaho, much like Utah. Talk about a stifling economy! Thanks to liberal leadership I have a much higher standard of living here in Washington. Things do cost more here, but the average wages are higher to more than offset that. Other people know that, so they want to live here, so employers big and small want to be here to tap that labor. Consequently on any given day you can find pages and pages of help wanted ads (or screens nowadays) whereas in Idaho, a solidly Republican state, I was lucky to make rent. Taxes? There's no state income tax here and the sales tax isn't that much higher than Idaho's. You are woefully misinformed about the quality of life and the job situation here.
     
  21. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    608
    I can give you a heck of a lot of liberal buzz words if you want to play that game.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    If you think it will help, sure. In the meantime, a substantial argument will suffice.
     
  23. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,777
    Here’s what else liberal leadership gave me: Used to be that I had to switch health insurance when I switched employers. Not only a pain in the ass but also if I ever had a bad health problem I’d be stuck with my employer. Our new governor Gregoire, when she was the state attorney general, told the insurers that they needed to offer individual insurance or lose their license to do business in Washington. Naturally, since they make obscene profits anyway, they relented. Now I pay a reasonable rate for health insurance that is not tied to my employer. In a Republican state the leadership would fight to deny me individual insurance, because that would generate campaign contributions and kickbacks. Republicans are private servants. Liberals are public servants.
     

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