The "ignorant American" - a fair prejudice?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by GRO$$, Jan 7, 2005.

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  1. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    In your experience. Yes.

    And this is where it gets debatable. From studies I've seen, including some that have been linked to this forum in the last couple of years, while the percentage of Americans that have a good understanding of both geography and history, including their own, is indeed fairly low (much less than 50%), the same studies show that less than 50% of European students have a good understanding of geography and history. Higher than Americans, yes, but not significantly. So from where I sit, according to my experiences and studies I've seen, you can realistically say more European students have a better knowledge than their American counterparts. Not most.
     
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  3. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Rather than continuing back and forth through every point, let's cut it down to what's relevant, which, of course, is you're still missing the original point.

    You think I am missing the point while I am not, I understand your premise but the premise is wrong. Roosevelt was not important enough to be compared to Bismarck, Wilson was. Wilson was the first true 20th century American president. Bismarck is significant to American history because Germany is important to American history, it would be en par to learning about Washington. If it wasn’t for Bismarck’s creation the US wouldn’t have become a world power in a long time, and the British Empire may still be around. If Roosevelt was shot mid-way through his term…history wouldn’t really care.

    Not really.. From the prespective of an American student, as far as understanding 20th century history is concerned, it is really only necessary to have knowledge of Germany from the time of Wilhelm II's ascension.

    And to understand his reign one has to understand how he did things that were against Bismarck’s plans for peace and stability.

    and imperial rivalries had caused interests to shift between the players by 1914 anyway.

    Because of a mismanaged alliance system…
     
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  5. path Militant wiseguy Registered Senior Member

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    Right I didn't mean it must be 8 I simply meant a longer period of time long enough to be immersed in a culture not just visiting or studying but really living ie. working paying taxes speaking the language socializing etc.
     
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  7. Lava Let discovery flow Registered Senior Member

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    I'm sure you would easily have figured it out if you'd stopped to consider it. Unqusetioned assumptions keep tkaing people to the wrong asnwers.

    The use of a human keyboard is causing me typing problms.

    Lava
     
  8. Zero Mass Registered Senior Member

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    Ask any American who is the President of Mexico and see if they even knew Mexico had a president. Ask any European who is the President of their neighboring countryn and they will know. Also they could probabbly name a few of america's high ranking officials to boot. Again ask any American who the Sec. of State is, or the N.S.A. and they will most likely draw a blank. But if you ask any American about how they feel about France then you get a rather base opinion without any facts to back it up...

    That's how we are here in America, we form opinions based on things we hear as opposed to hard facts or sound information. Of course I am not talking about everybody, but damn near an outstanding majority.

    -ZERO MASS
     
  9. hotsexyangelprincess WMD Registered Senior Member

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    I would have to agree with most people here that the average American is a miserable, unknowledgeable dumbshit. But I also think that can be good. A small percentage of American students will be taught far more than the standard student, and will learn much more. These will be the people who go on and lead, and make enormous and important scientific discoveries. The rest of America are the ones who will blindly use the tools and systems created by the intelligensia, and do the grunt work. Those people are the soldiers and workers, the proles of America. And we need them. They are the body of the country, the small other group being the fleshy brain organ needed to organize and design.

    I'm a junior in high school, and right there witnessing the american school system like you people can't. Im in IB, and we spent the entire first semester talking about Napoleon and Bismarck and Marx and Mazzini and Cavour and Garibaldi, and I figure I know a helluva lot more than the average 16 year old student, in America, and elsewhere around the world. All the non-IB students in our school are extremely unintelligent. In case you didn't know, IB is the international Baccalaureate, some sort of world school program that emphasizes internationalism. You can visit their website (don't know what it is) but its kinda European and annoying sometimes, but overall, I think that I am receiving a far superior education than the average human. :m:
     
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Is there a reason why soldiers, garbage men and mechanics can't be intelligent and well-informed people? :bugeye:
    Is there a reason you think they aren't?
     
  11. hotsexyangelprincess WMD Registered Senior Member

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    yes. there is a reason why they have to be unintelligent. why would you be any of those jobs if you could possibly comprehend all the other wonders of science and math? Its for the ill-informed and under-educated. :m:
     
  12. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Your pseudo-intellectual elitism astounds and saddens me.
    I happen to know quite a few highly intelligent, well informed and well educated laborers and craftsman.
    Much moreso than many of the educated people I know.
    Many top mechanics acyually have quite high IQ's.
    The reason a lot of the educated people ARE educated is simply because they look down on the jobs that these other people take.
    Many of the educated people I have known hated their jobs and when they got past their silly prejudices they pursued the jobs they wanted to pursue and were much happier.
    What about carpenters and other skilled laborers?
    Do you assume they are all dumb-asses as well?
     
  13. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Be a garbageman if your area has a good union. In every way, it is better than being a teacher.
     
  14. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    There is something that is very fulfilling that stems from working with your hands and having something solid to show for it at the end of the day.
    There is a great sense of pride that comes from analyzing, trouble-shooting and repairing a mechanical problem or coming up with a creative solution to mechanical problems.
    There is a lot to be said for working a 9-5 manual labor job outdoors all day in nature and coming home to read and further your knowldge and understanding of the world in your spare time.
    Have you ever built something beautiful that you designed with your own hands?
    Many of them simply do not want to "work for the man" and would much rather be self-employed doing what they truly enjoy.
     
  15. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

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    Stole the words off my tounge. I'd stop there, the rest is self-evident (or not worth my time).
     
  16. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

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    Your pseudo-intellectual elitism sickens me.
     
  17. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    While I agree there's some pretty ignorant people here in the U.S., the same applies everywhere though. I don't feel "an ignorant American" is a fair prejudice because we're just as "ignorant" to you as you are to us. The reason why you know more about international news is because your nations aren't that big to have much news about yourself so you learn more about others. That right there is the #1 reason. To brag about your international knowledge just shows your lack of perspective. The "neighbors" you know so much about aren't really your neighbors as they're part of the same European Union.

    What you know about the countries/states in your European Union, that's like instead of me just getting news about California, I get news about other states here. Our national news is equal to European international news in regards to how much we have to learn. And so while you may know a lot about your neighbors, I know a lot about my neighboring states and even non-neighboring ones. How much do you know about our states/countries or Russia's broken-up states? It's pretty easy to keep general tabs and know so little when everything is lumped up all into one, eh? You know about the U.S., we know about the EU. You know about New York, we know about the UK. You know about California, we know about France. You don't keep tabs on all of the U.S. individually except for the major states, we don't keep tabs on all of the EU individually except for the major countries.

    I don't know all the governors of the U.S. as I don't really care what goes on in all of them. I could care less what happens in rinky dink tiny Rhode Island or the hillbilly South as I just pay attention to the more important states and the same applies to me with countries. I guess "only the important states" must be that whole "self-interest" thing we Americans are always accused of. Yes, but sorry, I care not to know about every single individual country; I prefer to bunch up countries into regions and just worry whats going on in that region as a whole rather than having a slew of unimportant information about every single country. Basically, I just lump everything into: U.S., Canada, Mexico, Central America/Carribbean, South America, Africa, Australia, SE Asia/Indonesia, Japan, China, India, Middle East, EU, Russia, and that's about it. And then there's the bigger countries I pay individual attention to which fit into those general regions such as Brazil, UK, France, Spain, Germany, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc, but usually I just care what's going on in that area as a whole and lump em all together. Oh and yes, I know the leaders of all my neighboring international countries as well as most of the powerhouses or countries of concern.

    So basically, if you're not a powerhouse, I don't pay much attention to your politics (well, some I still do, you peons just aren't worth mentioning

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    ) and I'm sure the same applies to others than myself. You're all just tiny little countries not worth knowing about and you should just combine forces and form a bigger country. Sorry, Uruguay, Uganda, Qatar, U.A.E., Bangledesh, Laos, Moldova, and all you other little countries, I know of you, but I'll never know who your leader is! You countries are my Rhode Island! Go strike oil or create a basketball team and then maybe I'll pay attention to ya. Whoops, sorry, there goes my Americanism again.

    As far as being able to name a few of our high officials, well duh, that's an easy one seeing as how we're the evil American empire always being watched and on the news about something. Now if you were talking about Costa Rica or some other small country to show your "international knowledge", then I'd be impressed. Otherwise, if you count the countries in Europe and lump them into the EU, we probably know the same internationaly as you do. Again, our high officials are easier to remember because we're one huge country. For the invidiual countries in the EU, that's a whole lot more to remember. We know as many of all your officials as you can name of all our govenors which is not many for each of us. Pretty even. If you turn into one huge EU run by a few high officials then you'd be on par and we'd easily know all your high officials as easily as you know ours. If you wanna compare your so-called "international knowledge" while calling us ignorant, you need to at least put things into perspective.

    And for your last part of:

    "But if you ask any American about how they feel about France then you get a rather base opinion without any facts to back it up..."

    The problem comes when people aren't able to tell the difference between talking about a country in general or when talking about a country's government. The people of America have just as good reason to dislike the French government as the French government does of us. Neither side is basing opinions without facts if talking about the government. I don't blame countries for hating our government cause we have shady people in charge. However, when people start talking about the country as a whole like saying French people suck or Americans are ignorant, that's when we have a problem. And if you haven't noticed, it's the Europeans that tend to make the most mistakes by acting like snobs and targetting Americans as a whole, the people, as opposed to the government.

    - just some ignorant American

    P.S. Any "you's" are in general.

    edit: For the original point of the thread, in regards to history, yeah, I think Americans are undereducated when it comes to that. History is just boring to most people here. I'm sure it's the same for kids in other countries too though. History is a subject that many don't learn in school but do once they're older and see the light. I rank history right up there with philosophy and poetry. It's an acquired and learned taste.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2005
  18. BlueMoose Guest

    You got some good points NEILDO. Just couple of questions.

    -What your take on that: How those SHADY dudes got elected ? Stolen elections or
    why does majority of voters allow power to them, and why is that so ? Was is it like;
    Bush is tough guy compared to Kerry, did voters identify themselves easier to Bush than Kerry. You know, the goofy Bush, the guy from next door, but least he is trying
    to do hes best. It is nice to know that our Prez is just a common folk as we are. Or was it ignorance, or they didnt just care those miss-use of powers by Bush ? Or was it the fear-campaign of Bush that did the job ? No offence intented, just curious.

    On the otherhand, I´m from Finland, so maybe you dont care to bother...

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  19. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    To neildo:
    It doesn't really matter that the US is a big country and has several large states.There are other big countries out there in the world. It projects to the rest of the world that citizens of the US don´t care about the world other than what is in the interest of the US. As if there isn't a world outside the US, that the US is the world. As you said, you are only interested in powerful nations. This is a typical American attitude; just interested in the players, not so much in the world.
     
  20. Lava Let discovery flow Registered Senior Member

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    Lets get a reality check on hsap's points: if a garbage man could get a job in a warm office, not having to exert himself all day, and getting more money, he would - in most cases. Sure not in all cases, but mostly yes.

    I agree that smart folk do what they choose to, but lets be real, not very often is that garbage collection. Most people that do jobs that are looked down on like prison guards, garbage collection etc, do it because its their best shot, because they have not managed to get a better job

    C'mon, lets be honest.


    As for hsap's attitude, thats another thing. Sometimes intelligence counts for plenty, but most of the time it doesnt count for jack. And a person's worth is about a lot more than just iq, trust me.


    Lava
     
  21. Lava Let discovery flow Registered Senior Member

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    hotsexyangelprincess:

    >> Im in IB, and we spent the entire first semester talking about Napoleon and Bismarck and Marx and Mazzini and Cavour and Garibaldi, and I figure I know a helluva lot more than the average 16 year old student, in America, and elsewhere around the world.

    GRO$$:

    > Your pseudo-intellectual elitism sickens me.

    Half the American population knows more than average, I'm not sure why thats sickening.


    Lava
     
  22. Lava Let discovery flow Registered Senior Member

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    QUOTE one_raven
    "There is something that is very fulfilling that stems from working with your hands and having something solid to show for it at the end of the day.
    There is a great sense of pride that comes from analyzing, trouble-shooting and repairing a mechanical problem or coming up with a creative solution to mechanical problems."

    agree, agree


    "There is a lot to be said for working a 9-5 manual labor job outdoors all day in nature"

    So what is there to be said for it?

    Freezing cold, day after day, your fingers hurting and going numb with cold,
    cleaning is an unfulfililng uncreative job



    " and coming home to read and further your knowldge and understanding of the world in your spare time."

    most poor paid workers dont do that, theyre not interested, thats why theyre poorly paid.


    Lava
     
  23. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    hotsexyangelprincess, you self proclaimed your self to be of superior intelect but you lack the experience of life. Don't you comprehend that when you have a population as diverse as ours and many ingnorants living in that society it becomes easy pray for socialism, fascism, communism, as is the apparent current affair in our nation? This is were you lack experience, if we had had an educated public, at this moment the monster that is residing in the oval office would have been impeachead within the first four years of his reign, the intelectual downfall of this country would be the end of freedom in our lands, for only an "elite" would deem themselves worthy of leadership, and when you have this disparety of self proclaimed intelectuals, thinking they know best for everyone it becomes an oligarchy, not a democracy.

    Godless.
     
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