As the primary targets of the insurgency, these guys put their lives at extreme risk for what, US $60 a month, which they begrudgingly take to keep their families just above starvation level because Bush destroyed their economy. Bush just never quits. What a-holes Bush and Republicans are. Do you think these troops should take a bullet for $60 a month? I bet they get great medical care too.
If that were true then why not set the maximum wage at zero? Then everything would be free. Hooray! Can you really think that $60 a month is a fair wage?
No doubt! There may not have been an insurgency to begin with had Bush not made it crystal clear to Iraqis that his dictatorship was to be little better than Saddam's.
Can you really think that $60 a month is a fair wage? are you seriously using this as an argument? have you ever heard of purchase price parity? "When the heat got on, [U.S.-trained Iraqi troops] left the battlefield - that is unacceptable," [Bush] said. yeah.. Bush should've probably said "that IS acceptable" reminds me of the King of the Hill episode where Bobby joins a soccer team and the coach says "it's ok team, we've already got the tie... there's no need to hurt anyone's feelings by winning" your job is to fight and execute orders... if you get scared and leave the foreign force to do your dirty job, to put their life on the line for YOUR country and people, that is unacceptable. leaving your team mates in the middle of a fight is a cowardly disgusting thing to do and has to improve. you can form your own all-pussy army and make your own rules for it, where it's ok to pussy out in the middle of the fight, deserting your commanders and team mates... but real armies are supposed to fight the enemy, not to run to mommy or retreat unless ordered so how the hell can the US army leave this mess of an occupation before the Iraqi army and officers are willing and able to do everything themselves? until they learn to, it's AMERICAN boys and girls who'll be dying in Iraq. the present situation is unacceptable and has to change.
Yeah I've been wondering about how this part is going. I mean, and we must treat this phrase carefully, For all we do for them, we're not doing much for them. This is not intended as a general indictment of the war. That's a separate issue. But the Iraqis are being trained as quickly and minimally as circumstances allow. They're equally-gunned at best when facing the insurgents, and as of the flap about Rumsfeld and armor, they seem to be unarmored. With fifty people cut down in the desert, collected and driven along with no escort or weapons, as the story has it, and watching the Americans get carved when they get hit square, well, it must scare the piss out of them. If Bush really wanted to start a riot in the press, he could have said, "... that is somewhat expected." We had to know these problems were out there. It might have been the recently-disgraced Kerik who pointed out that the Iraqis haven't learned the "next man over" theory of when to flee combat. They'll learn. Sure, it'll cost American lives, but we're spending them, anyway. They will learn. I simply can't imagine what happens next if they don't.
With fifty people cut down in the desert, collected and driven along with no escort or weapons, as the story has it, about that story, i heard that these recruits who were caught and executed one by one, were sort of at fault. they threw out caution out of the window, chose an off-limits route, just because they couldn't wait to get back home to their families. see, it's the same thing -- discipline. they have to be disciplined and they have to believe that what they're doing is vital and important, keeping Allah out of the equation - i.e. they're doing it for the improvement of their life and for their country... not for some virgins or afterlife or a seat next to Allah at the party, which has been the standard line up to now... and before that it was Saddam's "i'll cut your wife's legs off if you don't". this new motivation has to become ingrained in the Iraqi mind... they have to fight for their country, without American help. Americans can only do so much. who do you think is funding this new Iraqi army? France? the debt-ridden current Iraqi gov't who can't even sell oil to fund itself because it's being sabotaged daily? the US taxpayer... and his patience is running out... of course the funding can always be bigger (by the way the guns the recruits do have are outmatching the insurgents') but Rumsfeld was right with what he said - you fight with the army you have, not the one you wish you had. (btw, it doesn't mean the question posed to him by that soldier was off target). so you get that army, and you fight with it If Bush really wanted to start a riot in the press, he could have said, "... that is somewhat expected." now that would be bad. it would demoralize and demean the recruits. Iraqis haven't learned the "next man over" theory of when to flee combat. They'll learn. Sure, it'll cost American lives, but we're spending them, anyway. They will learn. I simply can't imagine what happens next if they don't. of course they'll learn. humans are interesting that way - they adapt to situations quicker and easier than they think. lives will be lost, and more cowardice situations will happen, but they'll learn eventually. don't give up yet
In the case of the Iraqis, I agree. In the context of his original statement at the time, I think it's a bit more complex, and as far as I can tell the real question comes back to what did Bush know and when. It's ugly.
Yes. It's a good one too. Yes. It makes my point, not yours. How about you answer my question instead of dance around it? Yes, it’s a job. That pays a wage. As always, you get what you pay for. Paying a soldier to fight his own countrymen to establish a US dictatorship for a mere $60 a month, agreed to under duress, will not get you a soldier who sticks around when the bullets fly. You can wish all you want for unlimited courage for a song--it won’t happen. These soldiers consent to be traitors for the money they need to keep their families alive. They are mercenaries. They are not paid for bravery. Academic. The US is there permanently. The Iraqi soldiers will always be mercenaries. Irrelevant. Obviously the Iraqi soldiers would prefer that those who die be American. You’re well expressing Bush’s viewpoint, but haven’t shown that you can see it from the Iraqi soldier’s perspective. And it is easy; all you have to do is imagine yourself in their shoes and see that you would do the same. You can rationalize all you want here, but I don’t believe you would bravely risk death for a foreign occupier for a subsistence wage. Until Bush likewise empathizes, those soldiers will continue to desert in time of need. It is not the soldiers’ problem. It’s Bush and Rumsfeld’s problem.
I get the feeling Bush is paving the way for withdrawal. He will insinuate that the unsatisfactory state of affairs in Iraq stems from the shortcomings of Iraqis. This dissolves his moral responsibility to Iraq and makes withdrawal more justifiable in the minds of americans. We'll see if Bush's cronies start pushing the sterotype of the incompetent Iraqi who just asks for money and won't help himself in the new year. And another thing: Bush is actually talking about battle-shy national guardsmen? The US taxpayer does not have that right to thinning patience. The US taxpayer must reap what he sows. It is the US taxpayer who invaded Iraq. It is the US taxpayer who dissolved the Iraqi army. It is the US taxpayer that can't create order out of the chaos it created. It is the US taxpayer who voted for president assmonkey, despite the manifest incompetence he displayed in his first term. Iraqi civilians, OTH, have the right to get tired of getting their limbs blown off.
The odds of the US withdrawing anytime soon are nil I think. The purpose of the invasion is to annex the country for Bush Oil profit. If the US withdraws then $4 trillion in future gains are lost. There will be a draft and tens of thousands more US troops killed before that happens. Well put on the thinning patience. Hard to believe anybody could think this is the common Iraqis’ fault.
are you seriously using this as an argument? have you ever heard of purchase price parity? GDP (PPP) per capita Iraq (2003): $1,500 Iraqi soldier (2004): $720 Deficit: $780 how the hell can the US army leave this mess of an occupation before the Iraqi army and officers are willing and able to do everything themselves? until they learn to, it's AMERICAN boys and girls who'll be dying in Iraq. the present situation is unacceptable and has to change. They did it before in Vietnam I don’t see why they wouldn’t do it now. The present situation is not bound to change for another 3 years as one American commander said it would take that long to re-train the Iraqi army to do anything of significance. Once the US leaves Iraq (whenever that is), with the “Iraqi security forces” will probably be split in the civil war that will ensue, and sectarian violence will spread around the country. Americans are already dying in Iraq for nothing… they have to be disciplined and they have to believe that what they're doing is vital and important, keeping Allah out of the equation Well typical othian quote here, always making the Arab as nothing more then a messianic Zionist. But in reality the Iraqi soldiers have no reason to be disciplined, if anything I suspect many are more sympathetic with the insurgency then the American forces, if anything the Americans give the money, and we know that the “security forces” have informants for the insurgency in their midst. There is no Allah equation here, that’s in your warped Zionist propagandist mind, the “security forces” don’t want to kill fellow Iraqi’s, also you are wrongly assuming that all those in the forces are Islamic, I am sure there are Christians as well. they're doing it for the improvement of their life and for their country Abu Gharib would indicate otherwise, and who knows what other horrors in Iraq. What you are suggesting is for the raped woman to stop complaining, so everyone benefits (except the raped woman). Of course this is the old imperialist mindset, the White man’s burden to the brown people of the world, they will have it whether they like it or not. They will improve their lives on their own accord, isn’t that the democratic way? If you think this is a purely Islamic expression, then you obviously know less then you indicate. see, it's the same thing -- discipline. Like Zanket alluded to mercenaries are paid to do their job, the problem is this is America’s war not the Iraqi’s.
The most perceptive and relevant remark made in any of the many threads on Iraq. Any posts that fail to recognise that as a starting point are ....pointless.
firstly many Insurgents and loads of sympathisers have infultrated the Iraqi police and other services. Also many Iraqis basically want the money and nothing else. they dont want to kill Iraqis and they dont want to help the invaders, they just want money. put yourself in their shoes. lets just say I was in Iraq and i enlisted in the Iraqi army, then i would just join for the sake of the money (70% of iraqis are now unemployed, as result of the invasion - water, cooking oil, food etc. has becaome much more expensive) so in order to surivive i would need a job and there arent much of them around. so id join the army but i'd do fuck all, I'd sit on my arse collect the wages, pretend to follow orders and not to do what im told in any case possible and i'd leak out information and help insurgents. hey who knows i might even use the training the US gives me to help me be an insurgent or i could even betray the army and sabotage something or murder some Americans if i get close enough. and Oth, that stupid zionist way of arguing is getting boring now. Yes there are thousands of Jihadist out there but there not all fighting for 72 virgins, that repeated quote has been killed and buried by now. and yes there are Christian insurgents, aswell as bathists, sadam loyalists, bored kids, frustrtaed Iraqis etc.
Heck, Bush wouldn't take a bullet for his country when he had a choice during the Viet Nam War, why should any one take a bullet for him?
You almost made a good point there, but you did make a STRONG point. Even before watching ferinhight 911, it was quite clear that the army targets low income individuals.... for any army... not just american poeple. How does this get us anywhere? We are exploiting the poor... and for what cost... We let these poor poeple in our armys, just so they can get by in life, and/or support thier family... Is the risk of death..... murdering in the eyes of god, human moral injustice, really worth it? Americans are very extreme patriots. But going to war to make some cash from your government... it is not the answer.... Fight your government, not other countrys.... Why attempt to help others if you cannot help yourselfs first?
