Regarding this 'fantasy' world- We give this fantasy all the meaning it has. Take a cup of water. Describe it. All your descriptions will not contain its truth. Take that same cup of water to another. They will describe the same cup completely differently. A thirsty person one way, a sated person another, a blind person yet another. In this inexaustable set of values for one specific item demonstrates the permutations of this fantasy. The whole time your are defining your world in this way you are not seeing that God is with you right now.
I'm not sure I understand how the bible comes into play, and why, in a logical , non-denominational discussion, we have to assume the bible represents anything at all other than human will. But what does that have to do with an impartial God who has no good or evil design for us? I absolutely insist that, if we didn't have free will and choices, there would be no reason for our world to exist. "God" is letting the world unfold the way it wants to unfold -- that is, choices (yes/no) happen through physics (or, say, human will), and so the world goes where it goes, and "God" doesn't force His hand. Creating a world that is necessarily "good" would mean he forced it. Again, what does the bible or man-made religious concept (of "hell", sayPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) have to do with a discussion of a Creator? Do you mean to say that either the bible represents God, or there can be no other concept of Him? Exactly. We made choices. God didn't create an "evil" world. I don't understand that last sentence, but I do agree with the rest of that paragraph, mostly.
There cannot be good or evil. It's just our animal reaction perception of an event. Take away this perception and everything is pure. Thing is, Love is generally built on events of positive natures when formed from reactionary perception. So the key is to Love without any 'reason' to. Pure Love Power.
Insanely Elite: You are constantly with God. As God is constantly with you. You are reminded of His presence when truely connect with others. The course calls this the Holy instant. The fantasy exists when you believe you are apart from God. How could you be apart from the infinite? You are part of His miracle. You rarely realize it. Me too. ************* M*W: Welcome to the wonderful world of sciforums religion forum. Although I believe that Jesus taught this physiology to the Jews, I've never heard it explained quite like you did in any christian church. I believe that all creation is interconnected, and I have read where that is exactly what Jesus taught. However, the christians on the forum disagree with this. Can you please provide us all the proof that God is always with us? It would be very helpful if you could provide some extrabiblical citations or modern theological references by biblical scholars and scientists who have been involved in researching biblical archeology. Thanks, and again, welcome!
pixel: I'm not sure I understand how the bible comes into play, and why, in a logical , non-denominational discussion, we have to assume the bible represents anything at all other than human will. ************* M*W: But humans wrote the bible. Can you prove it was inspired by god? References, citations, quotes, etc. ************* pixel: But what does that have to do with an impartial God who has no good or evil design for us? ************* M*W: Can you provide evidence that god is 'impartial' and had no good or evil design for us? ************* pixel: I absolutely insist that, if we didn't have free will and choices, there would be no reason for our world to exist. "God" is letting the world unfold the way it wants to unfold -- that is, choices (yes/no) happen through physics (or, say, human will), and so the world goes where it goes, and "God" doesn't force His hand. ************* M*W: But, god would have HAD to force his hand to create us -- did he not? ************* pixel: Creating a world that is necessarily "good" would mean he forced it. Again, what does the bible or man-made religious concept (of "hell", sayPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) have to do with a discussion of a Creator? Do you mean to say that either the bible represents God, or there can be no other concept of Him? ************* M*W: If god took any action at all to create us, he would have had to use some kind of 'force.' Just what that 'force' is, I guess is debatable. I feel sure there many millions of concepts of god. Does the bible represent god accurately? Can you provide evidence? ************* pixel: Exactly. We made choices. God didn't create an "evil" world. I don't understand that last sentence, but I do agree with the rest of that paragraph, mostly. ************* M*W: If god created our world, then this should be the best of all possible worlds, but there is hate, crime, disease, famine, death, terrorism, so this CAN'T be the best of all possible worlds. Could this actually be hell?
Now why would I start dragging in quotes from the bible, when I'm saying the bible is NOT the word on what life is -- it's just something a bunch of men wrote. I might as well use my old "Dick and Jane" reader as proof anything about reality. Well no -- not any more than anyone can prove that God is good or evil. We're talking theories on the intangible here. Well yeah, in that he created the "stuff" of existence -- maybe matter/energy and/or timespace... But I don't believe he fashioned each of us individually, or even each species, or even any material object. Everything arose out of the basic building blocks ("DICE") he threw on the proverbial table. I think we're arguing the same point here. So you believe in hell then -- how Christian of you, M*W!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But no, I don't think this is what Christians refer to as hell -- not in the least. For every bit of ugliness in the world, there is a proportionate beauty.
Yeah. When Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice," he's assumed to have been talking about the probabilistic nature (in quantum theory) -- there is real randomness, and you can know a hell of a lot about a lot of things, and what is likely to happen, but not with 100% certainty, because the fabric of reality just will never allow it. ...And again, he DID recant this position in light of quantum theory.
Maybe you should read my post again. We could call it 'God' because the definition of God is not dependent on omniscience.
Hehe -- I'm not THAT old! My hair's actually purply/plum these days... At the time of that pic, I had very blonde hair. It looks blue because I put extreme colour saturation on the pic so that it wouldn't look grey as an avatar. Blue's a good idea though...
Hey M*W, Thanks for the welcome. Like the Handle Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! "all the proofs that God is always with us" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sounds like alot of work with little reward. There are many new testament references to what I said. The sermon on the mound supports it "why do you call me good, only the Father who is in heaven is good" "when 2 or more are gathered in my name I will be there" The 1975 book from the Foundation of Inner Peace, is called A Course in Miracles. Puts it all together. The great thing about the course is they don't advertise anywhere. You couldn't establish a church with this teaching. There is nothing else to buy. No club to join. Many book studies spontainiously form but there is no guru or retreats or the usual BS.
pixel: Now why would I start dragging in quotes from the bible, when I'm saying the bible is NOT the word on what life is -- it's just something a bunch of men wrote. I might as well use my old "Dick and Jane" reader as proof anything about reality. ************* M*W: Very good answer, pixel! ************* pixel: Well no -- not any more than anyone can prove that God is good or evil. We're talking theories on the intangible here. ************* M*W: Right on! ************* M*W: Well yeah, in that he created the "stuff" of existence -- maybe matter/energy and/or timespace... But I don't believe he fashioned each of us individually, or even each species, or even any material object. Everything arose out of the basic building blocks ("DICE") he threw on the proverbial table. ************* M*W: Okay, pixel, you seem level headed enough, yet you still believe in a creator god. So, are you saying our existence was a random act of (fill in the blank)? ************* pixel: I think we're arguing the same point here. ************* M*W: Possibly. I just wanted to see if we were on the same page. For the most part, I think we are. ************* pixel: So you believe in hell then -- how Christian of you, M*W!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But no, I don't think this is what Christians refer to as hell -- not in the least. For every bit of ugliness in the world, there is a proportionate beauty. ************ M*W: No, I don't believe in hell, nor am I a christian! I don't think this is what christians believe either. I like your analogy of ugliness to beauty in the world. Now apologize for calling me a christian!
Insanely Elite: Hey M*W, Thanks for the welcome. Like the Handle Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! "all the proofs that God is always with us" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Sounds like alot of work with little reward. There are many new testament references to what I said. The sermon on the mound supports it "why do you call me good, only the Father who is in heaven is good" "when 2 or more are gathered in my name I will be there" ************* M*W: I am familiar with all the bible quotes. What I am looking for is some extrabiblical proof that God is and is also with humanity. ************* IE: The 1975 book from the Foundation of Inner Peace, is called A Course in Miracles. Puts it all together. The great thing about the course is they don't advertise anywhere. You couldn't establish a church with this teaching. There is nothing else to buy. No club to join. Many book studies spontainiously form but there is no guru or retreats or the usual BS. ************* M*W: So this book provides the proof of god that I'm looking for?
We think we have free will because we think there is a personal me, but in reality everything has already happened. There is no evil in the world, only the power which draws everything back to unity again, to balance, to the center, to the heart. Life is a circle. Whenever man gains happiness he must gain sorrow, so that there would be balance, so that he would not fall to the seeking of personal desires. Man experiences right and wrong because he only sees a part of the circle of life, and he goes around this circle until he understands the whole spectrum which does not have a beginning or end. The only way to leave the circle is to become the center, origin, creator of everything. Then again, I might have gotten the whole thing horribly wrong. If that's the case then...meh. Oh well.
pixel, I think limiting to God to logic, the way we as puny humans see the universe, is kind of redefining what God means. If a God exists, I see no reason why He is obligated to make His actions seem reasonable or logical to us - if you see where I am going with this.
This is not a game, it is a garden. We are the plants and God is the gardner. His will is to train our will to serve His will. The plants who fail to meet His specification will be cut off. This is no game - it is survival of the fittest. Another way to look at it is to think of a Father and His Children. He is training us to obey Him and to do His will (why, I have no idea but I suppose that will be reveled later). When we grow up we are to join the family business (this ain't no democracy where everybody gets a vote and we get to leave home and do whatever we want). This is the "only game in town" (except it's not a game) and anyone who doesn't at least attempt to measure up will be cast out. With a few billion children to choose from, it won't cause too much of a stir to loose a few. Or, if you prefer, this is a military school - shape up or ship out. This is training, not game playing. The nice thing is that all you have to do to graduate, is try - your best effort is good enough.
I see where you're going (I think), but I don't think I'm "limiting" God to logic at all -- I'm employing logic to argue against what I think is the utter horseshit of religious doctrine re. God's "will" and good/evil. I wouldn't presume to suggest God "is obligated to make His actions seem reasonable or logical to us" at all. That has nothing to do with anything I've said, really.
TheErk, It is if your particular definition of a god requires it to be omniscient - for example the Christian god is defined as all-knowing - i.e. omniscient. However, if we were to discuss a generic god then we would be free to define it with or without omniscience. Christians require their god to be omniscient becuase they claim it is perfect and perfection isn't possible unless it knows everything. And that of course raises the wonderful paradox that the existence of omniscience is mutally exclusive with the existence of free-will. The net effect is that the Christian god as defined (includes omniscient) cannot exist if humans have free will.
