Star Wars vs Star Trek

By the way Nasor, the gamma rays thing, you're grasping at straws. Gamma radiation explosions and laser beams are NOT the same, and you know it, trying to make them appear synonymous won't work...and btw doing that was your use of "technobabble" while telling me not to.
Trek shields do afford some protection against photon torpedos and quantum torpedos. It is constant bombardment and warp sustainer engine on the torpedos that will allow the torpedos to get thru, and the gamma ray blast is the destructive force on the ship's hull

 

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Don't be silly. You have absolutely no idea what would happen when phasers hit shields or armor from SW, since no one has any idea how SW shields actually work. Perhaps they would pass right through. Perhaps the Empire uses turbo-lasers instead of phasers because their shields and armor render phaser weapons useless. There's no way to tell. The fact remains, however, that Imperial weapons are unquestionably more destructive than Federation weapons. Once again, I find it necessary to point out that they can make 48,000 billion gigaton energy cannons. The federation can’t even dream of a weapon that destructive.

I rather seriously doubt that Section 31 is more ruthless than the Empire.

I don't believe the Federation has the genesis device any more. As I recall from the movie, all the information relating to it was destroyed by Kahn, all the scientists who knew about it died, and the only prototype was detonated. If the federation still has it, why don't they ever use it? Or even mention it?

Yeah, I looked up the specs on DS10, but the only info that I could find on it seems to be from some sort of role-playing game. You realize, don't you, that the Empire has an entire class of ship (the Executor class) that's significantly larger than that station? And that they have a lot of them, while the federation only has one DS10? And that DS10 can't actually go anywhere?

Ok, time for a basic physics lesson. Gamma rays, x-rays, infra-red, etc. are all just light at various frequencies. Any light-based weapon (an antimatter explosive, laser, or whatever) works by transferring photonic energy into the target, which increases the kinetic energy of the target's particles - melting things, vaporizing things, or blowing off electrons. It's doesn't matter where the light comes from. Lasers and antimatter bombs are both just devices for exposing a target to a lot of light in a very short time. Indeed, it theoretically possible with our modern-day technology to make lasers that operate in the x-ray and gamma ray range. If federation shields can be damaged by photon torpedoes then they should also be vulnerable to lasers.

 

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Actualy, matter/antimatter explosions create a release of energy that is a combination of gamma rays, neutrinos, antineutrinos, and pions. I can't remember the exact proportions, but the gamma rays and pions dominate the energy release. Gamma rays are high energy electromagnetic radiation; pions are highly charged heavy particles. A defense that works well against one will not necessarily work well against the other.

Secondly, force fields in both universes are assumed to be walls of energy, or to put it another way, walls of one energy particle or another held in place by some quantum field effect. Thing is, every particle in the universe vibrates at a specific frequency and as a result all force fields have a frequency by default beyond any given it by its operational machinery.

So this means that there are frequency "windows" of vulnerability in both sides' defenses. Unfortunately for SW, the ST ships have clearly shown the ability to alter the frequency of their weapons (both phasers and torpedoes) and their shields to compensate for an enemy's capabilities. SW, whatever the nature of the particles they're using in their force fields, basically uses shields as Big Dumb Barriers. It doesn't matter how strong the SW shields supposedly are (and I really don't think they're THAT strong), if a ST ship has time to analyze SW technology (and given ST's magical sesnors, this would take minutes at best) they'll quickly find the frequency windows they need.

I'll give a point to SW, tho, in that I do think the Imperial ships turbolasers, while nowhere near the gigaton-yield range that some claim, could still hurt ST ships at least as well as a phaser. In "The Outrageous Okona", where Worf sneered at the "primitive laser" fired at the Enterprise with no effect, the shots came from a small-one man craft. SW ships, no matter their other lackings, are not want in straight-out firepower. The could pack a lot of raw energy onto a Federation ship's shields in a very short time, even if from a more "primitive" laser technology, enough so that the ST ships would at least have to take them seriously as a potential threat.

 

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Whoa.

 

Remeber, we're NOT talking about the Federation vs. the Empire. We're talking about the Star Trek UNIVERSE vs the Star Wars UNIVERSE. In the former case, the Federation is only a small part of that universe. In the latter, the Empire is pretty much all of it.

While the Feds would undoubtedly play as nice as they could, the Romulans, the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Dominion, the Borg, the Ferengi, the Gorn, the Kazon, the Delta Quadrant Dinosaurs, the Talosians, the Shelliac Corporate, the Metrons, the Tholians, the Excalbians (yes I had to look most of those up), etc, etc, would not. Heck, all the Empire would have to do is piss off the "Douwd" guy from TNG episode "The Survivors" and he'd wipe the entire Empire from existence in the blink of an eye just like he did fifty billion Husnock. The only other major power I'd imagine who'd try to be nice are the Organians, and Q would probably bitch-slap them for ruining the fun.

The Empire needed a moon-sized battlestation to blow up a planet. Doctor Soran needed a fifteen-foot rocket to blow up a sun. The Dominion did him one better on an episode of DS9 and used a shoebox-sized device, using the exact same technology as Soran's device, to try and destroy Bajor's sun. In the TNG episode "The Chase" a completely run of the mill Klingon bird of prey rendered an entire planet lifeless in less than two minutes with a quantum particle chain reaction. The ST races don't need ludicrous amounts of firepower; they have access to technologies far more destructive for a tiny fraction of the Death Star's energy investment.

 

Even if the SW folks want to limit we ST folks to the Federation, the Federation isn't only comprised of us redshirt humans

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, the Feds can rely on the Klingons and Deltans for relentlessness, Vulcans and Betazoids to battle "the Force" and heck for all his mischief, Q wouldn't allow his favourite Capitaine to fall victim to puny lasers. Ah, and thank you Dhusk for pointing out finesse can easly match raw power (trilithium weapons rule lol). And againt thank you Dhusk for bringing an end to the laser vs gamma rays business.

Nasor, do you think strategists would install a single warp cannon on a single station? Try going to the major Fed planets and see if the Executor makes it 1 parsec closer... just to draw a point, I don't even think Shinzon would have made it to Earth in "Nemesis", Section 31 is big on spying other-worldly technology and building hefty defenses against them for strategic locations. Oh and yes Section 31 are ruthless, they were willing to kill Captain Picard in order to keep themselves safe and secret.

Oh and the Genesis device is kept secret at Fed HQ, plus the scientist responsible was kidnapped for a 4 part story where Genesis was deployed as a weapon, this is in Picard's era, after Kirk encountered it first.

 

I wasn’t trying to claim that the Empire has a monopoly on the ability to wipe out a planet. I kept bringing up the death star’s super-laser because it’s irrefutable proof that the Empire’s weapons are far more advanced than the Federations, even though Enterprise-D refuses to admit it. Even if you scale the fire power of the death star down to the size of a standard star destroyer, you’re still looking at vastly more ship-killing power than a federation ship has ever demonstrated.

Where are you getting all this? I don't recall ever seeing 'warp cannons' or DS10 in any 'trek episodes.

 

You know thats great and what ever but .... all i have to say is ... Sun Crusher!! Whooo

 

Where's the smack head smilie when you need it? It's been mentioned several times in this thread alone, that both universes have complete role playing systems and hordes of books in addition to the series/movies. Look them up on Amazon.

 

I really doubt that any of the 'trek fans here want to drag in stuff from the role playing games, novels, etc. If that's the case, then I'm sure the Empire will be using their Eclipse class star dreadnaughts. They're each 17 km long and armed with a death star style super-laser...

 

Actually, if the ST races can do the same thing as the Death Star, or better, for far less energy and resource cost, its the opposite. The Death Star by volume is mostly a power generator; It takes many cubic miles of power plant for it to do what it does.

But both the Federation and the Dominion built a weapon capable of destroying a sun with a few pounds of trilithium and the 24th Century's equivalent of a car battery. A million times the armageddon for at most a trillionth of the cost it took to build, man, run, and power up the Death Star. That is proof a superior technological capability.

Don't confuse size or raw firepower with sophistication or lethality. A world War II era battle ship very obviously has far greater size, mass, armor, and total raw firepower than, say, a modern-day stealth bomber. Yet, in any straight up confrontation between the two, there's very little doubt which one is going to come out on top.

 

Phasers, for example, are a far scarier weapon than any turbo laser. Below a certain energy threshold, they function as a standard particle beam, delivering their damage mostly as a heat, much like a turbo laser in this regard. However, past this energy threshold, they disintegrate matter on a nuclear level. This has been shown a number of times throughout the various series. (Apollo's temple, the Vaal computer, many kilometers of solid rock in the TNG episode where they visited Tasha Yar's homeworld, etc)

In fact, there's a neat scene in Nemesis where a beam is playing across a ship's hull. The beam doesn't blast everything inward, as you'd expect from a straight energy-transfer weapon like a turbo laser. Instead, we see the atmosphere and the content within those decks being blow out from the ship where the beam strikes. Why? Because the beam has disintegrated the hull where it struck, and vacuum exposure did the rest.

It doesn't matter how much armor you have or what its made of--if its made of atoms a phaser can disintegrate it. Once past defensive shields, it doesn't really matter how powerful the phaser beam is, cuz it will disintegrate its target just the same.

I'll take a federation gigawatt phaser over even a *supposed* gigaton turbolaser anyday. They have far greater range (200,000 km, quoted from a DS9 episode), have pinpoint accuracy at least to 30,000 km (the Voyager easily pinpoint-targetting the Equinox's nacells), can sustain fire on a single target for at least up to several minutes (Vaal, Apollo's temple), is tunable to take advantage of vulnerability windows in force fields, and can disintegrate its way through any physical defense. If the can penetrate the Empire's shielding, and I don't see any real reason why they can't, they can literaly carve up any Star Destroyer sent against them like turkeys.

 

The weapons used in Star Wars aren’t ordinary lasers; they’re turbo-lasers. No one really knows what the difference is, but if you watch the movies it’s quite obvious that they aren’t simple laser cannons. They fire visible bolts of energy that travel slower than light. Lasers as we understand them would be invisible in a vacuum and travel at C.

I don’t believe that the federation has weapons that destroy stars. If your’re talking about Soran’s sun-destroying missile, remember that it’s definitely not federation tech. Soran was a mad scientist from a very ancient, mysterious race that apparantly doesn't age. He’s the same race as Guinan, who we know to be at least 400+ years old. About the only thing known about his people is that most of them were wiped out by the borg a long time ago.

As for the Dominion, I’m sure they would be able to put up a much better fight than the Federation. The Dominion was well on its way to completely conquering the Federation until the wormhole aliens decided not to let their ships through any more.

There have been numerous episodes with materials that were resistant to phasers. The DS9 episode “Forsaken,” for example, features a ‘toranium alloy’ that is apparently invulnerable to phasers. Kira comments that phasers are useless against it, and that some sort of special tool is needed to cut it.

 

The "planet buster" tech is fueled by trilithium, which is available to all races in Trek including the Federation.
The Dominion actually move somewhat like the Empire i have to admit, their ground forces are also a massive army of cloned genetically enhanced supersoldiers (the Jem Hadar)...I imagine the Empire will have a tough time against the Dominion when they come into alliance with the Federation (which is what Odo went to do!! lol).
That aside, I'll give Nasor his props for noticing that there are some phaser resistant materials in existance, actually, those materials are "directed-energy weapon" resistant...which means they're pretty darn well useless against a short range torpedo blast. However...guess what? Star Wars ships are NOT built of those materials

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Do you actually have any evidence that the Federation has weapons that destroy stars? The mere fact that the federation has trilithium and Dr. Soran’s missile used trilithium to destroy suns does not mean that the federation can duplicate the technology.

More silliness. You have no idea what star wars ships are made of. For all you know, they use turbo-lasers instead of phasers because their ship armor makes them immune to phasers - hence the need for multi-gigaton energy weapons to punch through it.

 

Where did you get your information about Hyperspace being faster than Warp speed. Hyperspace level 5 hasn't been defined in comparison to Warp factor. In SW, they never described the distance across the galaxy in light years or any other distance. Furthermore in SW, none of the fighting scenes were done in Hyperspace. When the Enterprise met the Borg for the first time (thanks to the God-like powerful "Q" who can defeat SW and ST world with a snap), the Enterprise fired photon torpedos at warp factor nine with no effect.

 

I don't think the Empire's Excutor Class ships or any Rebel ships have any chance against the Borg cubes. Whether if the SW ships use lasers or turbolaser in any amount, the borg ship will simply adapt. ST overcame these obstacles with their experiences (CPT Picard and Janeaway). SW never showed anything that will overcome the technology of the Borg (adaptation to weapons and transwarp [even warp] which enable time travel).

 

The movies show SW ships crossing ‘half the galaxy’ in a matter of days. This would take a ship with warp engines years. The Old Republic (and the Empire that replaced it) spans the entire galaxy – the Federation takes up only a tiny portion of the galaxy.

An Executor class command ship has hundreds of times the firepower of a typical federation starship. Since Borg cubes can be severely damaged by only a few dozen federation ships (as seen in First Contact), it seems likely that an Executor could destroy one with little trouble.

Also, the mere fact that the Borg can adapt to relatively crappy federation weapons doesn’t mean that they would be able to adapt to turbolasers. The Borg were unable to adapt to Species 8472’s energy weapons, so obviously that don’t have blanket immunity to all weapons.

 

Nasor,

Show me by the numbers the distance across the galaxy that SW ships can travel. How much light years can the Millenium Falcon can travel in a day at full speed? If you can define the distance in light years, I'll believe that SW ships are faster. Again SW didn't clearly define the distance across the galaxy; thus, stating that the SW ships are faster is speculative. Just because the movie characters said that their ship can go across the galaxy in one day doesn't mean they are faster.

SW never confronted the Borg ships. ST gained the experience from previous battle prior to "First Contact." The Borg still can adapt to the Federation's weapons if they don't attack the weak point of the Borg ship in a timely basis (approximately 10 seconds). ST's phasers with constant changing frequency only give them time to hit and run. Can the SW's lasers change it's frequency constantly like the SW phasers? Probably not. If that is the case, the Borg will adapt instantly; thus their lasers are rendered useless. Further, the ST ships was capable of destroying the Cube because of Picard's experience and knowledge of the Borg.

Does SW ships have scanners like ST? I don't think so. They had steal the plans of the Death Star from their computer (thanks to R2D2). ST ship scanner is capable of acquiring the archtecture of the Death Star and destroying it at warp speed with photon (or better yet quantum) torpedos (remember SW ships can't battle in hyperspace).

One thing we can agree upon: SW and ST are no match againt Species 8472's nano probes. ST can use their ingenuity to find a way to defend against 8472 since they acquire samples of their nanoprobe. As for SW, they won't have a clue in defending against them.

 

Ah, right. I suppose perhaps the SW galaxy is an incredibly tiny galaxy.

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You are still making the silly assumption that the Borg can adapt to any weapon simply because they can adapt to Federation weapons. This is especially silly since there's already proof that the Borg aren't able to adapt to every type of energy weapon, as demonstrated by the fact that they could never adapt to Species 8472's weapons. Since Imperial turbolasers are much, MUCH more powerful than Federation weapons (see earlier in the thread for exact numbers) there is no reason to believe that the borg could easily adapt to them.

More silly assumptions. You have no idea whether or not ST scanners could penetrate imperial hull armor. Since there are plenty of examples of ST scanners not being able to scan through mineral deposits you have no way of knowing how they would fare against Imperial armor.