How do virtual particles transmit "forces"?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by FarThought, Sep 25, 2004.

  1. FarThought Registered Member

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    I think current scientific theories state that forces are sent back and forth by virtual particles. I think there are issues here though. If I have two oppositely polerized particles in space, seperated by one mile, those particles will attract. But exactly how does that happen? Well there are a couple of different ways it could happen,

    1. The particles know where eachother are and somehow shoot force exchanging virtual particles directly at each other.

    or:

    2. The particles send out force exchanging virtual particles in all directions.

    If 1 is true, then the particles are smart (like a smart bomb not like a human) and that would be pretty profound, which has problems: what tells the particles where the other particles are for instance, some kind of force? And what are the mechanisms behind that force, etc? If 2 is true, then the particles have access to a huge amount of energy (or virtual energy?)
    to send particles in all directions. Exactly how many particles does each particle send out, it must be a lot, because as I understand science, if the universe were populated by two particles on opposite sides of the universe, their forces would still interact. For this to be consistant (ie for there not to be hit and miss spots because not enough virtual particles are transmitted) there would have to be a huge amount (like 10^100 or more to give an idea of the amount) of virtual particles emitted from each particle, many times per second. Any theories on exactly how many? Where does the energy come from to make these, any theories on the possibility of tapping the energy supply that drives virtual particles?

    Sorry if I got the science messed up, there's not much on the web on this subject and this is what I remember all those books I read saying..
     
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  3. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    I'll put my 'unfounded speculation hat' on and give that a whirl.

    if the universe were populated by two particles on opposite sides of the universe, their forces would still interact

    Makes sense, those two particles comprise the entire universe and at the point of the Big Bang most likely shared the same space even though they are now separated by great distances. They've been interacting from the 'get-go' but that interaction would probably weaken proportionally over time.

    Where does the energy come from to make these, any theories on the possibility of tapping the energy supply that drives virtual particles?

    The two particle universe itself most likely would supply the energy, and the energy would be conserved even though the particles were separated and the universe was expanding.
     
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  5. FarThought Registered Member

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    Not really what I wanted, I kinda wanted an explanation on how forces do their thing, anyone?
     
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  7. gentle Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, although "Q" will disagree he will not intimitate. Here is a real life example. I call it "Gravitational wave synchronization".
    Here is my example of gravitational sychronization-

    THE BOBBER- RIPPLE (wave) EXPERIMENT

    The experiment ………….

    A 1000 kg. Bobber automatically bobbing once every 10 seconds in water, and a 1 kg. Bobber automatically bobbing once every 10 seconds in the same water 10 meters apart. They both have the same pounds per square meter bobbing force.

    The prediction…………….

    Both bobbers would come together and touch to form a uniform distribution of the ripples. The ripples represent the gravitation e- wave emitted from each object.

    The discussion…………..

    Evaporative gravitation predicts that the path of least resistance would be for both bobbers to have equal centers of e-wave distribution. Since both condensation masses attempt to take up the space to synchronize to the path of least resistance, they touch and remain that way. If the masses could, they would pass through each other until the centers of each mass overlap perfectly, as in the big bang and almost in black holes. This represents the path of least resistance of each set of gravitational e- waves.
     
  8. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    They both have the same pounds per square meter bobbing force.

    Perhaps you refer to 'buoancy?'

    Both bobbers would come together and touch to form a uniform distribution of the ripples.

    How is that possible? They both displace different volumes of water - their ripples will have different wavelengths as a result.


    Since both condensation masses attempt to take up the space to synchronize to the path of least resistance, they touch and remain that way

    I would think they would separate further.
     
  9. gentle Registered Senior Member

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    90
    They don't. They actually touch and stay together.
    Another thought experiment. Drop two equal weight bowling balls with spacial trackers in the ocean 5 meters apart. Do they come together, and if so why?
     
  10. FarThought Registered Member

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    Uhm, did you two post in the wrong thread or something? I don't see the relevence to force fundamentals, specifically virtual particles.
     
  11. Tracker00 Registered Senior Member

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    pretty interesting. lets take a single electron and a single proton. the electron emits an electric field that converges toward the proton.

    what tests are there to prove that an e field really exists? it could be just like what farthought said, the electron just targets the proton and we don't have an means to measure or know that so we assume an e field exists.
     
  12. gentle Registered Senior Member

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    The relevence is that 1.- the same fundemental forces would apply and are currently generally misunderstood and 2.- the necessity of virtual particles disappears with the correct understanding of the fundemental make up of nature. So I am replacing fiction with yet to be generally understood fact.
     
  13. gentle Registered Senior Member

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    90
    Three examples that I know of are current. private message me and I'll explain.
     
  14. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    They don't. They actually touch and stay together.

    No, they don't.

    Drop two equal weight bowling balls with spacial trackers in the ocean 5 meters apart. Do they come together, and if so why?

    They do not come together - they sink to the bottom. If their journey to the bottom finds them coming together, it will be due to the water.

    But that is irrelavent to your theory, as is your other "thought experiments."

    the same fundemental forces would apply and are currently generally misunderstood

    It is most certainly clear that YOU are misunderstanding physics.

    I am replacing fiction with yet to be generally understood fact.

    Yeah, sure you are.

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  15. gentle Registered Senior Member

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    I am sure then if you understand this so well you can answer one small question I seem to have answered and I need you to correct me. When I drop stuff what is the exact mechanism by which it falls? My explaination shows how changes in time and space relate to this exactly, but if you can explain to me how it works I will be enlightened and so will the rest of the readers. I'll be waiting...... amused at your comical nature. Do you know you are naturally funny?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2004
  16. PeteBoise Registered Member

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    Like I've said before, "Q" is the forum(village)idiot. Most people tend to ignore his
    responses(A little advice, not that you need it). He thinks he is the character from Star Trek

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  17. Yuriy Registered Senior Member

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    Anybody who indeed is interested to know "How do bodies transfer forces" should read "The Scientific Notes" #8 and # 9 on www.minescience.com
     
  18. tsmid Registered Senior Member

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    The theory that forces are mediated by virtual particles is obviously a circular (and hence inconsistent) explanation as you would need another force for the virtual particles to interact with the object.
    Quantum Field Theory in general is merely a naive construct based on the assumption that all physical phenomena (e.g. light) behave according to classical physics, i.e. that a Hamiltonian function exists for the corresponding system. It contradicts in fact experimental evidence (see for instance my page regarding the Photoeffect).

    Fundamental forces are just this and can not be further reduced.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2004
  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Like I've said before, "Q" is the forum(village)idiot.

    Hmmm... that's funny, I thought I was the moderator, you know, the guy that can delete your posts.

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    BTW - I've never seen Star Trek - I don't watch TV.
     
  20. alain du hast mich Registered Senior Member

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    "Like I've said before, "Q" is the forum(village)idiot. Most people tend to ignore his
    responses(A little advice, not that you need it). He thinks he is the character from Star Trek"

    im with (Q) on not having watched any star trek, but i do know a bit about the show. i do know that there is more then one character in it
     
  21. RawThinkTank Banned Banned

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  22. Krill Registered Member

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    Last time I checked, classical physics work just fine in that reference frame. The mechanism is commonly referred to as gravity.
     
  23. Yuriy Registered Senior Member

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    tsmid wrote:"The theory that forces are mediated by virtual particles is obviously a circular (and hence inconsistent) explanation as you would need another force for the virtual particles to interact with the object"
    This is a perfect example of how people can be wrong when they start to dictate to Nature how to behave.
    In "The Scientific Notes" #9 it is proven that the simple absorption of quanta of field (a random process, which outcome is regulated by the momenta conversation law) by body leads to the body's causal motion as it is under the action of the force in accordance with Newton's 2 law. This work not only describes the nature of the Newton's 2 law, but also gives a straight explanation of force - the quantitative and qualitative ones. All what really matters is the following.
    1. Quantification hypothesis: each field is the stream of quanta irradiated from the source of field. Any interaction of some body with a given field consists of simple absorption of quanta of this field by that body. Between any two consecutive acts of absorption body moves by inertia.
    2. The body, absorbed quanta, gains its momentum.
     

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