Glorious Christ or Suffering Christ

mustafha:
I have been viewing this forum for sometime, and just joined recently so it's not really insightful.
but thank's, for the pat on the back, it's appreciated.

 

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It might not be insightful, but bloody true, and you only said what others think.
all power to you, well done.

 

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God tests His Believers. Once I was tested. An Angel with a Pure and Beautiful Soul was shown to me, and to many others. But this Angel was very very ugly... only her singing was exquisite. When everyone else tried to ostracize and ridicule the Angel because of her ugliness, I stepped in and stopped them and appealed to them to 'listen' to the beauty. In that moment I passed the TEST, and she turned to me and dropped her ugly mask and told me "Only the Faculty of True Discernment is worth Cultivating"... I was given the gift of True Discernment.

So, yes, I know what is the Wheat and I know what is the Weeds when I look at the Bible. It is a Gift of God given to me as a Grace because of the goodness of my Heart. You also would have the Faculty of True Discernment, but it is obvious that you would never pass the TEST.

 

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Really!?

Paul became famous for the very reason that he went about Antioch and Damacus claiming that he was speaking with the very same Voice of Christ. Paul was in effect claiming to be the 2nd Coming. This is the reason that Paul NEVER quoted Jesus while formulating his Doctrines, because it was his claim that he WAS Jesus... or the New and Improved Jesus. The Church apparently agreed because nearly all of Christ's Teachings were abandoned when Paul's contradictory Doctrines were taken up.

 

What about modern moral standards? You must know of the concept of '******** Fruit'. Valuable research is thrown out if it was gotten my immoral means (Nazi and Japanese research on prisoners and inmates conclusively mapped the Brain to an extent that honest research has not yet reached, and yet it was all tossed out as 'Poison Fruit'). Valuable Evidence is tossed out of court if it is acquired by illegal means. Nowadays people even insist upon paying more for their tunafish if it can be guaranteed that it was fished from the oceans without harming Higher Mammals. The Central Moral Principal here is that one should not benefit by Evil.

Killing Christ was Evil. Enjoying a Salvation based on His Blood and Suffering would be to eat the ******** Fruit. We just don't do that anymore. Say it is a higher Moral Epiphany that Humanity has attained to.

Our New Morality makes you a primitive of sorts, doesn't it?

 

Biblical Researchers are just the drones of the the Theological World -- the little wonks. Some of the Bible was genuine Divine Revelation, but most of it was man made stuff and even Satanic stuff. But the little wonks make it the purpose of their tiny insignificant lives to spin a web which reconciles it all into one unified system. But you see what is wrong with that, don't you. The Man Made and the Satanic should be cut out and thrown away, NOT thrown like mud into the Face of God.

Besides, New Revelation trumps old Revelation. What God reveals to me I know to be True. For the Bible you either have to take the word of a Jew or the word of a Greek. Now, honestly, what are the odds of that working out?

 

Why would people write about their weaknesses and failures? most people, would edit that kind of stuff out if they were writing it.

 

If you are formulating a Religion which emphasizes forgiveness of sins, in which unashamed sinning becomes the New Virtue, then you will make it a policy to brag about your sins.

Look at your typical 'Twelve Step' Program -- like Alcoholics Anonymous. Each person steps up and speaks about what a Low Life they used to be. It becomes like a contest to see who was the most deplorable. We are to intended to understand that we are supposed to be inspired with how much change they brought into their lives, but the subcontext remains "look what they were able to get away with".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you throw out truth for whatever reason... aren't you throwing out truth? It doesn't really matter what the reason is, because in the end, you're simply choosing to ignore the truth.

Isaiah 53:5-12 is a prophecy of Jesus' being bruised for our iniquities... v10 in particular says "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; ..." Romans 8:8 "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." So, even though evil thoughts were in the heart of men, thoughts to kill Jesus, only good came out of it for those who love the Lord. And, Jesus did say His blood is the blood of the New Covenant...

I agree with you on the fact that Christians do take for granted His Salvation, and go on sinning... they do this, as I understand, because they have no root in themselves.. I did it because I didn't know who I was, and I didn't truly believe (tho I thought I did) or understand (tho I thought I did) everything I read and saw. Everyone that does this is wrong, and they God will tell them so, just like He told me.

Paul said in his epistle to the Phillipians, c2v12, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." I believe that speaks of the fear in Job 28:28 where it says "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding.'" If I were to just worry about morality, I would be like you, defining morality by whatever legal means I could, and I would be perfectly happy... as it is, I fear the wrath of the Almighty. If you want to classify me as primative for this, cool with me... but if you're going to try to prove my justifications wrong, at least understand the material I've contrived them from.

 

That's one of the most compassionless comments I've ever heard. You ever been an alcoholic? Or suffered from anything even remotely like that? Comparing the 12-step to Christianity, btw, is like comparing apples and oranges, as they say...

Not many alcoholics that I've met are proud of what they've done. Not many are proud that they are alcoholics. And not many people that have even partial understanding of the price that Christ paid to save them are proud of what they've done. I loathe my sinful nature, and pray continually to be forgiven and delivered from evil.. similar to how they go through a 12-step program to be delivered from alcohol.

But, considering you deplore all these things... what, I wonder, would you do if you were an alcoholic and wanted to quit?

And, how exactly do you believe that you are saved, if you don't believe that Jesus' blood has saved you? Or is you "New Morality" your salvation?

 

Yes, I still flinch when I think of all the Medical Experiments that went to total waste when, for ethnical considerations, they tossed out the German and Japanese Research Projects -- hundreds of them. It was the idea that we could not benefit from Poison Fruit. One might have argued that since some of the Inmates and Prisoners actually died during the conduct of this research -- paying their lives for it -- that that would have made it precious. I'm sure that there had been much agonized debate before Lifesaving Research went into the shreader, but the Moral Considerations won out. Murder should be a 'Cloud' around which there is no silver lining.

More so in the case of ill-gotten Evidence. Just as you should never feed a Sheep Dog lamb meat, you should never allow Cops to bite into the Public. They do, anyway, but if they ever get caught forcing the Evidence, they should be removed from the Job

The Gospels were all written by Paulists. The Gospels were all written well past 71 A.D. The Real Apostles of Christ died when Jerusalem was leveled and only the Gentile Congregations that had been formed by Paul had any further say in the Doctrinal Debates. So I am sure many words were put into the Mouth of Christ. But notice that any verse you can point out was incidental. We know what Christ's basic Teachings and Sermons were -- the Sermon of the Mount Teachings. Little cryptic asides that are pasted into the narrative ... "My Blood is the Blood of the New Covenant"... I don't believe it for a second. Christ prayed in the Garden for Protection and Escape which was denied Him. Certainly Christ did not have an intentional and elaborate Plan to commit suicide by Pharisee.

Yes, there are some verses from Isaiah that can be stretched into pertaining to a Suffering Messiah. But that is not exactly what the verses say -- the Verses do not say precisely that "The Messiah will be Killed". Isaiah simply mentions an indeterminate Sufferer, and subsequently the Paulist Murderers glombed onto them to help their case -- Jewish Lawyers stretching the evidence. No. If you ever saw a series of Posts by an Atheistic Jew intent on proving by Jewish Scripture that Jesus WAS NOT the Messiah, then you will see all the Scripture that the Paulists NEVER dared refer too. The Messiah was NOT SUPPOSED TO BE MURDERED. As I said before, the Three Kings did not come a Thousand Miles to pay homage to a Dead Man. The Messiah had been meant to be King of Kings. The Jews Killed Him.

Christ said that Paul would come as a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing. In a hundred incidentals Paul comes off as advocating Righteousness. But in every deliberate Argument he concludes in favor of Guilt Free Sinfulness and unConditional Elected Salvation. Remember the Bumper Stickers -- "I Sin Because I'm Forgiven". That is straight Pauline Doctrine. Those Cowboys and Hill Billies should be given Honorary Doctorates in Theology, since they have proven the insight to cut to the core of Paulist Doctrine.

 

You need to go to a Twelve Step meeting and see person after person boast about their accomplishments as a low life. It is disgusting. I once belonged to several New Age Organizations that were a bit 'Twelve Steppy' and we could stand up and speak, and these 'Steppers' would do their thing in our crowd. Bragging about what heartless destructive barbarians they are. The Basic Message is "I am so glad I am a Christian, because no other Religion would let me get away with this".

NO! THERE IS NO SALVATION. The Antichrist has been effective in redefining for the Westerner what the Purpose is of Religion. RELIGION IS NOT SUPPOSED TO JUSTIFY SIN AND CRIME. The Point of Religion is to advance Spirituality and to encourage Morality. By offering Salvation -- which is an exemption to Righteous Behavior -- the Influence becomes Anti-Religion.

So the impulse you have to suppose that there needs to be a Short Cut to Heaven by some Easy Salvation is essentially Satanic. Christ said there were Two Ways -- the Narrow and Difficult Path that would lead to Heaven. And the Wide Way that would Lead to Hell. Paradoxically enough, your WIDE WAY of SALVATION leads to Hell. Paul was the Antichrist. The Prophet Simeon predicted him -- Predicted that Paul would Contradict His Teaching. You should believe now that you shouldn't believe.

We have all been TESTED and everyone has FAILED. It is not that the Bible was Wrong. It is that the Bible was a TEST. I am correcting the Test and showing you all the Right Answers. It was simply wrong of us to reject the Teachings of Christ which were hard, in order to latch onto the Doctrines of Paul which were so obviously more favorable and easy.

 

I think we have a little miscommunication going on here. I will go to an AA meeting soon, btw, just to see what it is that happens. I'm gonna quote some of the things I said that you seem to have glanced over:

.... So, I agree with you on the fact that there is no "easy" salvation... but God says He is salvation all the way through the Bible... so on the rest of it, I don't agree.

If you actually look at Isaiah 53:7 it says "... He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, ..." and Isaiah 53:8-9 "... For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. (9) And they made His grave with the wicked -- but with the rich at His death, ..." and Isaiah 53:10 "... When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, ..." and Isaiah 53:11 "By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities." and Isaiah 53:12 "... Because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Notice that I've completely stayed away from quoting the NT because you always reply with "Paul is the AntiChrist," and I'd like to avoid that subject, because it's really straying. So, I'll leave Paul out of it for now.

Notice that that prophecy, which believers take to be about Jesus, specifically says numerous times that God's Righteous Servant will die, and bear the sins of many...

 

Leo,

You make an excellent point. In the Marian apparitions that are now occuring in the hundreds around the world, the Blessed Mother frequently cautions people to cease offending God for He is already so much offended. There would be no point in ceasing to offend if the bill had already been paid, so to speak. However, I have always believed that Jesus did come for our redemption not so much as a carte blanche to do whatever we like but because we had sealed ourselves off from Heaven's grace. Jesus made it possible, not guaranteed, that we might enter the Kindgom of Heaven.

 

Dear Dr. P

Isaiah was himself murdered by the Jews. He was sawed in half. Isaiah was not talking about some future Messiah. He was speaking about himself.

Yes, I am willing to concede that there is a Way to Salvation, as long as we contrue that Way to be through a Disciplined Following of a Strict Moral Teaching.

But this is not how Salvation is generally understood and so I do not like to use the Word.

Besides, the whole Idea of Salvation is Ego Centric. Self Centric. I believe we should be God-Centric. Do our best to serve God for the sake of Serving God. Why should we even take a second to think of ourselves? We should just do our Duty and let God sort it out on Judgement Day. Again I suggest the Paradox, that he who thinks only of His own Salvation will be condemned. Get beyond thinking of yourself.



Now, when you go to your Twelve Step Program, remember to not go along with the usual format of applauding as people gleefully list their Crimes against God and Humanity. Set quietly with a stern face, as you should, and if questioned, tell them they all aught to be ashamed of themselves. It will be the first time they ever heard it.

 

surender,

That verse in Deuteronomy can also refer to Mohammed (no offense intended) as many Christians think it does.

 

God Bless you and may Our Lady the Ever Blessed Virgin shower Her many Graces upon you.

Yes, the Coming of Christ did open up a Spiritual Dispensation. We practically closed it off by stipulating to God that it was only there because we Murdered His Son. If it were not for the Mercy of the Blessed Virgin I am certain that there would have been no Grace, and that the Dispensation you speak of would have been entirely withdrawn from us.

I do believe that we must Collectively Apologize to God and renounce any notion of Salvation through the Murder of Mary's Son. We need to acknowledge that Sin is abhorrent to God and that each Sin committed does indeed offend God.

When we acknowledge Our Mistakes and Repent, and when we toss out Paul's Religion of Easy Salvation by Murder, then God will show some of His Infinite Mercy and we will be allowed to have Christ back again. and this Next Time we will have learned to treat Him right.



Do you wear Scapular and Miraculous Medal?

 

First...

I'm pretty sure most Christians would be very upset to hear that they think that.

That would mean that Isaiah also was the bearer of many people's sins... according to those verses I listed before. And what about Isaiah 49:6 "... I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth."? That would mean that Isaiah is a light to Gentiles and that he is God's salvation to the ends of the earth, and not Jesus.

And lastly, you say Isaiah was sawed in half? I did not know that, but may I ask where you learned it from that I can read it for myself? In Isaiah 52:14 Isaiah says "So His visage was marred more than any man, ..." speaking of God's same Servant as Isaiah 53... Was Isaiah beaten to the extent that Jesus was before he was sawed in half?

Rest assured I won't admonish that kind of behaviour, and will definitely say something if led to.

 

Yes, Isaiah can bear many people's sins. All Penance can be transferred. I can do penance for you or you can do penance for me.

I do not dispute that Christ, had He been permitted to live, would have been LIGHT TO THE GENTILES. As it was, however, He stayed mostly with the Jews. No organized Ministry was never sent out, by Christ, to the Gentiles.
When the Gentiles were finally Organized, it was by Paul who indoctrinated them to treat the Jewish Christians as though they were enemies. It was more as though Paul brought Darkness to the Gentiles.


Anyway, more concerning the Prophecy of Death. I'm not an expert, but I have seen the progress of Jewish Posts in which they dispute that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The Verses that Christians endlessly quote apparently are not very central to Messianic Prophecy as evaluated by the Experts in that Field. The Messiah was not supposed to dawdle for three years in the Countryside just so He could spend a holiday weekend in Jeruselem to be Murdered by the Religious Elite. Messianic Prophecy requires a King. The Three Kings of the East did not come to pay homage to a Country Preacher who be hung with horsethieves.

Yes, Jesus was Messiah, but things went terribly wrong, but it was not how it was meant to be. Free Will messed everything up.

 

Still keepin it simple Leo? How are the angels?