For those of you who still think the Bible is not ambigious.

Tony,

Your interpretive powers are formidable. Indeed, it never occurred to me that someone would be interested in smiting <i>land</i>.

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Ben,

It all sounds like speculations and excuses. In fact, I bet if you worked at it hard enough you'd be able to come up with your own "perhaps, ..." -- or two.

 

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*Originally posted by Bambi
Your interpretive powers are formidable. Indeed, it never occurred to me that someone would be interested in smiting land*

It's right there in black and white.
You can disbelieve it, or "interpret" it any way you like.

Dan was smitten and so was the land of Naphtali.
I didn't write it, and I didn't interpret it.

So Benhadad hearkened unto king Asa, and sent the captains of the hosts which he had against the cities of Israel, and smote Ijon, and Dan, and Abelbethmaachah, and all Cinneroth, with all the land of Naphtali.
(1 Kings 15:20, KJV).

 

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Sure Tony,

whatever you say. They smote the land but left the tribe living on it alone. I understand.

 

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*Originally posted by Bambi
They smote the land but left the tribe living on it alone. I understand. *

I can see that you have an axe to grind, but how do you know where all the members of the tribe were?
How do you know that smiting the land does or doesn't mean setting fire to it, or salting it?
How do you know why the Bible says "land of the Naphtali" but not "land of Dan?"

I think you are the one with the amazing interpretive powers.
You can actually interpret the Bible, which you say you don't believe, in such a way that it agrees totally with what you think it says, even though you say you don't agree with it.

Thus we end up with the Bible in total agreement with its unbelieving interpreter, while at the same time, the interpreter is in total disagreement with the Bible.

Amazing book that can do that!!
Yet somehow you don't believe in it, even while ascribing such a tremendous miracle to it.

 

Originally posted by tony1

I think it said the "cities of Israel" when it mentioned Dan. Which means Dan was a city. Naphtali, apparently, was either several villages/cities or a nomadic tribe -- thus "the land".

But I find your other suggestions for the meaning of "smiting" most intriguing. Do you suppose they burned or salted the cities of Israel, while leaving their population intact too? Besides, how do you know where all the members of the tribes were?

Though I understand that consistency is entirely too much to expect. Sorry.

Yes, amazing it is. But last I checked you were able to perform the very same trick not just with one book, but with the totality of all scientific literature in existance. So really, you are entirely too modest.

 

*Originally posted by Bambi
I think it said the "cities of Israel" when it mentioned Dan. Which means Dan was a city. Naphtali, apparently, was either several villages/cities or a nomadic tribe -- thus "the land".*

So Benhadad hearkened unto king Asa, and sent the captains of the hosts which he had against the cities of Israel, and smote Ijon, and Dan, and Abelbethmaachah, and all Cinneroth, with all the land of Naphtali.
(1 Kings 15:20, KJV).

Let's see, captains sent against the cities you mentioned, smote Dan, and all the land of Naphtali.
So, to recap, Benhadad sent captains against the cities.
Benhadad smote Dan.
Benhadad smote the land of Naphtali.

*Do you suppose they burned or salted the cities of Israel, while leaving their population intact too?*

Not since reading the verse.

*Besides, how do you know where all the members of the tribes were?*

I don't have to.
Remember, you're the one providing an interpretation, so you're the one who has to keep of all the details in order to keep her story straight.
I just have to read what's there.

*Yes, amazing it is. But last I checked you were able to perform the very same trick not just with one book, but with the totality of all scientific literature in existance. So really, you are entirely too modest.

Aw, shucks.

Of course, I have inside information.
The totality of scientific literature is toast.

Even if the Bible were completely untrue, scientists would figure out a way to reduce the planet Earth to ashes one way or another.

 

Originally posted by tony1

Yeah. It's all inside your head.

Actually, Earth will be reduced to less than ashes. When the Sun enters its red giant phase, Earth will be consumed under the star's surface and pretty much vaporized. When the Sun then goes nova, the atoms of the former Earth not incorporated into the resulting white dwarf will be scattered through the galaxy.

Hopefully, by then science would have found a way for Earth life to migrate away from the disaster.

Besides, aren't you the one who claims that all scientists ever accomplish is producing lists of numbers? Seems a little bit hypocritical of you then to expect science to reduce the planet Earth to ashes. Please help me to see how lists of numbers = planet to ashes. Or are you perhaps thinking of all the "hot air"?

 

"It all sounds like speculations and excuses. In fact, I bet if you worked at it hard enough you'd be able to come up with your own "perhaps, ..." -- or two."

I can see why you would be confused as it's not spelled out for you.

There were more than 12 tribes of Israel. Though only 12 were considered special or whatever. By the time Revelation rolled around Dan was no longer part of the group and Levi moved in having faithfully served God in the temple where Dan served false gods.

But of course you can't "speculate" because that would mean you could be wrong...god forbid.

Ben

 

*Originally posted by Bambi
Yeah. It's all inside your head.*

There's a humdinger of a retort.
Is that like, "your mother wears army boots?" or are you trying to tell me that your knowledge exists somewhere outside your head?

*Actually, Earth will be reduced to less than ashes. When the Sun enters its red giant phase, Earth will be consumed under the star's surface and pretty much vaporized. When the Sun then goes nova, the atoms of the former Earth not incorporated into the resulting white dwarf will be scattered through the galaxy.*

There you go!

So, we agree on two things...
1) man came from the dirt
2) the earth will be burned up

The difference is time.
You say billions of years, I say thousands.

*Besides, aren't you the one who claims that all scientists ever accomplish is producing lists of numbers? Seems a little bit hypocritical of you then to expect science to reduce the planet Earth to ashes. Please help me to see how lists of numbers = planet to ashes. Or are you perhaps thinking of all the "hot air"? *

OK.
Scientist>>hot air>>list of numbers>>lab assistant>>bomb>>button>>this one?>>press>>NO! oh oh>>....

Of course, I'm not expecting scientists to blow up the planet.
It's just that if evolution were true, that would be how evolution would come to a screeching halt.

 

Originally posted by KalvinB

That's not the point, Ben. It's the Bible literalists who cannot speculate. Notice that Tony is refusing to follow your lead, and keeps insisting on a literal interpretation no matter how much he has to twist the meaning of the words in order to arrive at something palatable.

I'll tell you why the Bible literalists cannot speculate. If they admit they are speculating with regard to the Bible, then they can no longer claim direct, fool-proof access to The Truth. They would have to let in the possibility that they are actually <u>mis</u>interpreting. They would have to admit that they are fallible as far as sound judgement goes. Which would let in the possibility, no matter how minute, that they might be wrong with the whole business of their religion altogether. While you might be cool to such arguments, it drives these others up the wall. Which is in turn great for demonstrating just how good religion is at twisting minds.

 

Originally posted by tony1

Mine doesn't. But you appear to situate yours on the pages of your holy book (having admittedly cleansed your head of all conflicting knowledge.)

1) depends on what you define as "dirt"
2) depends on what you define as "burned up" (by the way, after that "combustion" there won't be an Earth any longer to land the holy city on, if you know what I mean; nor would there any longer be a suitable sun in this system.)

With regards to time, well... After some consideration, I'll stick with science (thank you very much).

Which, of course, in itself disproves the very notion of "hot air". You've got some things out of sequence though. It should read:

Scientist>>theory>>lab assistant>>list of numbers>>publication>>engineer>>bomb>>...

 

Dan literally went after false gods. Levi literally faithfully served God. Dan was literally removed from the kingdom and Levi literally took their place.

There is no speculation. That's what literally happened.

Ben

 

*Originally posted by Bambi
But you appear to situate yours on the pages of your holy book *

Can you not follow your own side of the discussion at all?
Earlier you said this, "It's all inside your head. "

So, which is it?

*1) depends on what you define as "dirt"*

Anything smaller than a twenty.

*2) depends on what you define as "burned up" (by the way, after that "combustion" there won't be an Earth any longer to land the holy city on, if you know what I mean; nor would there any longer be a suitable sun in this system.)*

Granted your myth gets some details screwed up.

*With regards to time, well... After some consideration, I'll stick with science (thank you very much).*

You're welcome.
You didn't consider much.
You consider Christianity nothing.
Science is wrong 99.99999999999% of the time.

*Which, of course, in itself disproves the very notion of "hot air".*

You're forgetting that the "hot air" isn't hot air the way you think of it.
What I consider crap you consider the very acme of scientific endeavor.
It still looks, sounds and feels the same to me as it does to you.
Scientific data is very compelling in its apparent certitude.

*You've got some things out of sequence though. It should read:
Scientist>>theory>>lab assistant>>list of numbers>>publication>>engineer>>bomb>>... *

Really?
Here is a mild-mannered unassuming little quote from encyclopedia.com...

---Manhattan Project
Manhattan Project,
the wartime effort to design and build the first nuclear weapons (atomic bombs). With the discovery of fission in 1939, it became clear to scientists that certain radioactive materials could be used to make a bomb of unprecented power.---

Where are those pesky engineers when it is time to lay the blame on them?

*Notice that Tony is refusing to follow your lead, and keeps insisting on a literal interpretation no matter how much he has to twist the meaning of the words in order to arrive at something palatable.

I'll tell you why the Bible literalists cannot speculate.*

As I recall (from reading your post), you were the one attempting to add, subtract and misinterpret words in an effort to change the literal meaning of the verse at hand.

*Which would let in the possibility, no matter how minute, that they might be wrong with the whole business of their religion altogether.*

That possibility is always there, but I have people, such as yourself, to thank for reminding me that there are people in worse predicaments, such as not having any clue at all, or not realizing that they are wrong about pretty much everything.

 

I think she has

Tony1, I think Bambi has followed the discussion, and quite better than you. After all, it is inside your head. Once you situate your preferred faith as knowledge, and once you cleanse your brain of any valid conflict through the apathy of faith, the entirety of Christianity's exceptionally narrow scope will fit easily inside even those brains only marginally functional for human survival. After all, it's two simple concepts: Jesus saves, and once one accepts that, they can believe whatever they want to believe.

It really is a great religion if you're greedy, undereducated, and have no vision of your own spirit. In lieu of learning about yourself, you just go to the manual and it tells you what you are.

To shake the burden of being human would be a wonderful thing. But it's not worth giving up the joys of being human. To give up the joy of being human is to invent a new burden.

-Tiassa

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*Originally posted by tiassa
I think...*

You do? Can you supply proof?

*...brains only marginally functional for human survival...*

You'd be the expert on brains like that.
You can barely keep your shit together.
You're basically coming apart at the seams.

*In lieu of learning about yourself, you just go to the manual and it tells you what you are.*

It beats wallowing around in the crap you call your life.

 

*************
M*W: Here is another resurrected post that is an excellent reference.

 

Rofl separate light and darkness funny, because darkness is the absense of light, the writers of the bible were 2000years ago ignorant men who also thought earth was flat

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and this path of your god would be like this;
bible quotes from www.thewaronfaith.com

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)

After murdering a young girl's entire family before her eyes, you may kidnap her and add her to your concubines. Murder, kidnapping, and rape. The loving God.

" . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
..........I Samuel 6:19

"The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces."
..........2 Chronicles 25:12

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
..........Psalms 137:9

Jesus loves the little children.

"But God will shatter the heads of his enemies..."
..........Psalms 68:21

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
..........Hosea 13:16

All members of the anti-abortion movement had references such as these deleted from their bibles by Randall Terry.

"Slay and utterly destroy after them, says the Lord, and do all that I have commanded you."
..........Jeremiah 5

"For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
..........Exodus 20:5

"And the Lord our God gave him over to us; and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. And we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed every city, men, women and children; we left none remaining..."
..........Deuteronomy 2:33

"...Men'ahem sacked Tappuah and all who were in it and its territory from Tirzah on; because they did not open it to him, therefore he sacked it, and ripped up all the women in it who were with child."
..........2 Kings 15:16

God was into this abortion thing pretty heavy, apparently.

"But Ama'sa did not observe the sword which was in Jo'ab's hand, so Jo'ab struck him with it in the body, and shed his bowels to the ground..."
..........2 Samuel 20:10

"Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."
..........1 Samuel 21:11

"(Elisha) went up from there to Bethal; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys."
..........2 Kings 2:23

Spare the bear, spoil the child.

"..the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts."
..........Isaiah 3:17

God likes naughty girls to be nekkid.

"Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger...Whoever is found will be thrust through and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes, their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished."
..........Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

"I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood..."
..........Ezekiel 32:5

"I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs, I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rend them."
..........Hosea 13:8

"And I will fill your mountains with the slain; on your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall...Then you shall know that I am the Lord."
..........Ezekiel 35:8

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..."
..........Malachi 2:3

"'Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women...'"
..........Ezekiel 9:5

But don't say "fuck" or "God damn" or else you're going to hell, you lousy, no good sinner.

And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
..........Jeremiah 13:14

How many times have you heard God called merciful?

 

No, I won't. In fact I have already seen God, and I still don't believe it. He is inherently unbelievable. If you believe something, that means you have an adequate conception of the object of your belief, and that is not possible.