Defeat your enemy with pacifism

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by my_notebook, Nov 9, 2001.

  1. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Pacifism is both a strength and a weakness and can be used in some instances but is a disaster elsewhere. Like most tasks a single tool is rarely able to do everything.

    When confronting simple emotional anger, pacifism is the best answer. Emotions do subside. If the anger is met with retaliation then the dispute escalates. Pacifism here is a superb response.

    However, pacifism is a disaster if the attacker believes that you represent a threat to his way of life. His desire is to destroy you. If you only offer pacifism then you will cease to exist. No matter how much you do not want to fight your very existence depends on being able to defend yourself. So despite your distaste you really have no choice but to destroy your enemy if you want to survive.

    The ultimate answer is a world where we all share the same objectives and the means to achieve them.

    Cris
     
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  3. nkumar Registered Member

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    exterimism in any way is bad

    Being a pacifist to some extent is a good thing but the nature demands the balance, a balance in each and every walk of life.
    Its absouletly correct that if some stupid person is causing a harm to you in your personal life, you may ignored it as if nothing has happend.On other hand when it comes to national or international terror one can't stay out leaveing all the sense of patriotism and humainty.We just can't leave all the innocents lives in the hands of this hard hearted killers.We must try to protect the human civiligation for our future genration come in much more prospurs world then us.
     
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  5. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    I just wanted to thank everyone for their open and honest responses to my posting. I am new to this forum, but I always enjoy listening to the opinions of others, especially when they disagree with me, because that's when I learn the most.

    Thanks!

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  7. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    They do not want to "conquer" us, they want to eliminate the western influence in their culture and given the way the globe has shrunk today, the only way to do that is to eliminate the "west".


    I agree with this, except for the last part. They do want us out of their lives; that is why they differ from a conquerer, who wants to expand their own interests outward. But you are making an assumption that they believe the only way to eliminate our influence in their homeland is by 'destroy(ing) the West'. Do you think that a majority of Muslims in the Middle East really believe that?

    I believe that Bin Laden might believe this; he believes that Allah dissolved the Soviet Union, and that the same will happen to the U.S. We will never change his mind, or the minds of any extremists. That said, the opinions of the majority of the Middle Eastern population should be of concern to us, because it is those people amongst whom Bin Laden hopes to gain support. My point is that a violent retaliation from the U.S. was almost as predictable as the disenchanted reaction from the Middle East to those actions, and I think Bin Laden knew both of these would happen. I think that was his plan.

    However, I think his plan is fu**ed because of our influence on the state level. The one thing he does need to survive is state sponsorship, and although it may seem he has proven able to hang on without it, I think Al Queda are already in serious trouble and will eventually be eliminated. He is hiding in a cave. The actions of the U.S. have, I think, been effective in this instance, although I do have lingering doubts about the long term effects of those actions as well as our continued dependence on Middle Eastern resources. I digress.

    Perhaps pacifism is not the best approach in this situation, but I don't think we should ever eliminate it from our minds as a possibility. Humans have been historically violent, yet all of us seem to have a problem with that on some level. We know it is not the right thing to do, yet we do it anyway because it works. Perhaps there is a better way. Perhaps we are not there yet. We will not know unless we try.

    "I think it would be a good idea."

    - Ghandi, on Western civilization.
     
  8. SeekerOfTruth Unemployed, but Looking Registered Senior Member

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    Absolutely agreed.
     
  9. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    I just wanted to make sure. Hitting a woman, in my opinion, is a strong accusation to make, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting your post. As it turns out you did hit a woman and you are damn proud of it.

    Whether or not you are pleading a cause does not change the fact that you are making an argument in public. Your argument is that pacifism is not a viable option, and that is a respectable case. However, your example, in which your hitting a woman ended the argument, is going to reflect poorly on any argument you make.

    That, my friend, is not a minority opinion.
     
  10. Pzzaboy Sales Slave Registered Senior Member

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    Every situation is different. You cannot judge someone on hitting a woman unless you were there yourself. To judge him on that is sexism pure and simple. Maybe she deserved it, have you even thought of that, or were you too hung up on the fact that it was a woman. At some point in everyone's life they deserve a good hard smack for one reason or another, and they should get it, even if they're female.
     
  11. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    OK. How about this:

    Chagur has the opportunity in this thread to tell us exactly what happened, and explain why it was justified. I want to stress that this is not because I think Chagur needs to defend himself, but because it will be a viable contribution to the discussion at hand.

    If Chagur explains, I promise to read the post with an open mind, and reassess my opinion on the issue. My opinion aside, the facts would be in the open, and people can make up their own minds.

    Sound fair?
     
  12. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

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    2,235
    my_notebook ...

    Your comment, "As it turns out you did hit a woman and you are damn proud of it." intrigues me insofar as reading over the prior related posts does not, as far as I'm concerned, warrant the comment you made. That is, unless you are an ardent feminist ... of either sex.

    Although, from the tone of your posts, I would suspect that you are a female; possibly one who has experienced physical abuse. If that were to be the case, accept my sympathy. If not, you are too emotionally dedicated to a cause to understand what you read.

    1. I clearly stated that I had responded to a slap from a female in response to Benji's question. No "As it turns out ... about it. It was a simple statement of fact. Would you prefer that I had lied?

    2. I do not believe that I, in any way, indicated I was, to use your words, " ... damn proud of it." Apparently you equate my ability to openly, and without shame, admit to having done so as being 'proud' of what I had done. The situation occurred, I responded in a way I considered appropriate, 'mission accomplished', so to speak.

    I have done, in your apparent frame of reference, far worse things in my life and feel neither pride or shame for having done them: They had to be done, I did them. Period, full stop. It is a mind-set that I doubt you could ever understand.

    PS Just read your latest post ... Sorry, one doesn't 'explain', 'justify', or 'apologize' (unless accidental) for what one has done, at least not in my world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2001
  13. Counterbalance Registered Senior Member

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    373
    ~~~

    Sounds like a slick invitation designed to get someone to defend themselves.

    But I wonder: Defend themselves to whom?

    ~~~

    Chagur,

    Don't know the circumstances involved in the incident, don't need to know, and don't care.

    Why would I not care?

    Because I realize that there is always more to the story and rarely is anything truly understood (or accomplished) by jumping to conclusions.

    Other than that, it's not supposed to be the main topic here.

    Oh, and... nice reply, Chagur.

    ~~~

    Counterbalance
     
  14. Benji Registered Senior Member

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    I can understand there are occations where you might have to hit a woman but in genral its not done, i personally have never hit a woman but iv come very damm close.

    Chagur i dont think your a woman beater for givin some dosy mare a slap (backhanded) the line is drawn when its done multiple times and for no reason.
     
  15. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    It is a mind-set that I doubt you could ever understand

    Try me. I can be shockingly open-minded at times.

    Sorry, one doesn't 'explain'

    In my world, if you use a personal experience to make a point it is fair game to ask what that experience was. I am not asking for a defense, Chagur, just an account.

    If you prefer not to, then I suggest we just agree that we disagree and move on, b/c this is getting a bit silly.
     
  16. Patman just one of the lost Registered Senior Member

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    WAR ANYONE?

    The flames burn brightly, brightly as the sun.
    A constant reminder of the battle unwon.
    A new world order which never arrived.
    The dream along with the leaders all have died.

    Crimes against humanity?
    Temporary insanity?

    For those who dare there's glory.
    For those who don't we're sorry.
    For those who care there's sorrow.
    For the time they have they borrow.

    Bullet's fly, bodies fall!
    People scream, hear their call?
    For god and country stand alone.
    Kill them all before you get home!

    Some are heroes, all are fools.
    Fight for your life, there are no rules.
    Jungle, desert, sea, or air.
    Kill for democracy anywhere!

    Just something I wrote awhile ago thought it fit the situation.

    Patrick
     
  17. Benji Registered Senior Member

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    nice poem
     
  18. my_notebook wild hamster Registered Senior Member

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    Hey that's pretty good! Did you write that as a poem or a song?
     
  19. jef Registered Member

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    end the fight

    In this case the only way to end the fight is to get rid of the agressor. Of course we could stop helping other people because that is what Bin Laden is mad about in the first place. He, and others, think that the US is getting into other people's business by helping others so he is bringing the fight to us. We can either kill them or allow our friends to be killed. Why would it be the right thing to do to allow others to die? OK, maybe we don't have to be the self appointed police but who else would answer the call? No one with enough power has enough compassion.
     
  20. Patman just one of the lost Registered Senior Member

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    Benji

    Thanx

    my_notebook

    Thanx. It was written as a song like a lot of the things I wrote. But lyrics to a song are just poems with cool back ground music.

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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    Kapuscinski on the fall of Shah Reza

    The anniversary of the Shah's departure and the fall of the monarchy was approaching. To mark the occasion, the television showed dozens of films about the revolution. In many ways they were all alike. The same pictures and situations recurrred. Scenes of an enormous processon alwas made up Act One. It's difficult to convey the dimensions of such a procession. It is a human river, broad and boiling, flowing endlessly, rolling through the main street from dawn till dusk. A fload, a violent flood that ina moment will engulf and drown everything. A forest of upraised, rhythmically menacing fists, portentous forest. A clamoring throng chanting, Death to the Shah! Very few close-ups of faces. The cameramen are fascinated by the sight of this incipient avalanche; they are stricken by the dimensions of what they see, as if they found themselves at the foot of Everest. Over the last months of the revolution these surging millions marched through the streets of every city. They carried no weapons; their strength lay in their numbers and their ardent, unshakeable determination.

    Kapuscinski, Ryszard. Shah of Shahs. Trans. by Katarzyna Mroczkowska-Brand. New York, Vintage, 1992.

    ___________
    * It is possible to win with solidarity.

    * It is possible, with the third most advanced army on the planet, to lose the nation to your own people.

    * Pacifists fight with solidarity. The number of people mowed down by soldiers when solidarity walks over them will still be considerably less than the number of casualties in a ten-year, backwater, decimating war.

    * Soldiers against their people: some will run out of mettle, some will run out of bullets. Tyranny cannot destroy everyone, lest it have nobody to rule. In that paradox, it eats itself or burns away.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  22. KalvinB Publicity Whore Registered Senior Member

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    When we can get the millions of Aganstians to stop running away and stage a peaceful March on the Taliban and terrorists I'll be more than happy to advocate we stop fighting.

    So who do you suggest we get to lead these people to take back what's their's?

    Considering all we have is the northern alliance, a good old fasioned ass kicking is really the only option we have. And by doing so the NA should be clued in to the fact we could kick their ass too so they don't do what the Taliban did 15 years from now.

    Ben
     

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