Abortion= WRONG

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by cma, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    I think "chance to live" used by Thorne means to enjoy his or her life fully. Your unwilling to see the problems that will occur when millions of people reject human life for money.

    I've never seen a pro-lifer say the fetus is not technically human, especially when medical science says the fetus is a member of the human species. We have a logical reason to stop you and whoever wants to suppport abortion because we don't want to live in a depraved society.
     
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  3. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Please, point out these problems.

    I see people who don't want kids, not having kids. I see sperm being killed by birth control. I see fetuses being killed by abortion.
    Nice try. A fetus is no more a 'member of the human species' than my appendix.

    You want to draw the line of where cells become human at the instant a sperm and egg join. There is NO logical reason for doing this which you have been able to supply. If you disagree, supply it.

    Drop your strawmen about the 'problems that will occur' and 'depraved society'... and TRy to address the main problem. When is a group of cells an individual human? You have not backed up your opinion with any logical reasons. For that reason, it is up to the individual to decide if their fetus is a human in and of itself. You have no basis to argue otherwise until you decide to support your argument.
     
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  5. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    No, the soul exists after death when the physical brain is long gone.

    This is circular.

    Well, how do you define the brain when that's just a collection of human tissue as well?

    You might not have but I have.

    I don't see the point you are making. Of course having a baby and raising the baby could be a extremely good life-changer, but women who do not want their life changed too much could have the baby adopted.
     
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  7. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Your age is showing through again.

    The 'joy of pregnancy' is a myth. When you get a tapeworm and gain 50 pounds due to the thing in your gut, remember that you aren't allowed to take it out. It could be an extremely good life-changer.
     
  8. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    You see what you want to see. If you want to see everyone else as a tapewarm, including yourself, that's what you will become. I will answer your other questions at another time.
     
  9. Nivao Ghost of Mirkwood Registered Senior Member

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    SHE! i'm a she!

    yeah, that was a bad example. i just thought... well, it grows...

    okinrus: i never said that it was a good life-changer. i just simply said 'life-changer.' for a lot of people it's a bad life-changer. you can't decide for someone whether or not they can have a baby. being damaged mentally, emotionally, socially is a problem with some (mostly young) pregnancies.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2004
  10. historian2be Registered Member

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    Actually, most Christian conservatives are not opposed to contraceptives.
     
  11. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, I know. Are you saying that ultimate good and bad exist or that they just exist within the women's perspective? If they just exist within a women's perspective, I'd be hard pressed to find someone to make a worst candid for that choice. Not every choice that effects us most must be made by ourselves. What makes you certain that a teenage women, who you say will be damaged emotionally with the pregnacy, who has never given birth, can make that choice?

    Adoption is an alternative if the women truly thinks she is not fit to care for the child.
     
  12. alain du hast mich Registered Senior Member

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    "i just thought... well, it grows..."

    so does a stalactite, a cancer, a mountain, a mould
     
  13. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    PERSOL; I am amazed how you so quickly attempt to twist my meaning. I said the same thing about my son, and he was fifteen when he died. So, was I saying that he was not really a human being? Further, you are wrong, most people who oppose abortion do not believe any such thing. You continiue to decieve yourself. Sad, that you are so desperate to god.
     
  14. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    s/b "desperate to be god." .........You apparently were attempting to deflate the importance of Okinrus' argument, with some remark about his age. I have no idea if you meant he is too young or too old to have as much sense as you, but like your other comments, it was self-serving. As he said, humans have humans, but you would compare them with mold or redwoods, as though you lack the mental capacity to tell the differences between living things. Nonetheless, it is obvious to me that you have sufficient formal education and mental capacity to think your way clear of your foolishness. There is a way that seems right unto man........ The key word is "seems."
    I wish you well, but the more I read the more I forget the issue and remember that you are a human being, not just tissue, and I want you to know that if I could I would soften your heart. pmt
     
  15. Mr. Chips Banned Banned

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  16. Nivao Ghost of Mirkwood Registered Senior Member

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    yeah, well a stalactite isn't living, nor does it contain human DNA.

    i admit hair was a bad example. but the point was that we willingly kill 'human' stuff all the time. the zygote is no different.
     
  17. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    "Stuff" is not human embryos. It truly seems that you know little about what is actually going on, and also that you seem to be missing the thrust of concern. This is unfortunate, because no one is trying to invalidate you, but to possibly stir up that good sense within you. Your attitude regarding this matter seems destructive. Perhaps you are simply invigorated by being an activist for abortion. I do not know, but something is going on here besides incest and rape, and it is not good. My opinion.
     
  18. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Perhaps you could support your case of why 'an embryo is not human stuff'.

    You (and the rest) keep avoiding that issue.
     
  19. Nivao Ghost of Mirkwood Registered Senior Member

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    i'm not for abortion.

    i'm for the choice of having one. no one has the right to deny a woman that choice.

    hey, isn't that what america is supposed to be about?
     
  20. P. M. Thorne Registered Senior Member

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    Persol wrote: Perhaps you could support your case of why 'an embryo is not human stuff'.

    That was not what I said, and you know it. How you strive to twist our words. I said "stuff" is not human embryos. I said nothing of "human stuff," whatever that is.

    Persol wrote: You (and the rest) keep avoiding that issue.

    Perhaps, you ought to consider, as I have, that you simply do process information as we do. I think you will agree. I believe your conscience is seared. I believed you are either deceived or that you simply will go for anything that will relieve you of any responsibility of being. Everything is to serve you, because you deserve it. Right?

    In any event, as I do not seem to have the good sense to stop trying to reason with you, I am signing off this thread. If you want to bawl me out, send me a PM, and I promise to read it. See, I am not being cowardly, I simply have other things on my plate.

    I have given you the truth about my thoughts. I can do no more. I wish you all the best there is in this life, and can only hope that you discover it. pmt
     
  21. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Now that is funny... because you were the one who twisted the words. Nivao said "'human' stuff", you switched it in response to him, I switcehd it back.
    That's not what I've been saying. An embryo is JUST human stuff. It is no more a seperate human than an appendix.
    Good for you. Do you wish to actually support you stuff any time soon?
    You haven't started to try and reason. You've simply said that empbryos should be treated as human... but have been unable to give a reason which doesn't apply to stuff which is decidedly not human.
     
  22. A fetus is a stage in the life cycle of a human. An appendix is not a stage it is an organ a group of cells which are organized to perform a function. A fetus is a group of systems organized as an organism. It is both a matter of complexity and function. A cell is the smallest organizational unit in an organism. The next organizational level is tissues the next level is organs and then systems which all are required for an organism. I believe that a fetus qualifies as a group of systems which are organized. I believe that the proper name for this organism is a human. Why do you disagree?
     
  23. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    So is a sperm.
     

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