You know as well as I that the old testament is an integral part of teaching the christian faith. You can't have it both ways, either the god in the first part is the same as the god in the second or it isn't. Saying, "god is infinite and unchanging" on one hand and, "just ignore the first bit of the bible, god is kind and nice now" on the other, it directly contradicts the nature of god taught by every version of christianity that I'm familiar with. The phrase, "he gave his only begotten son" says a lot in itself as well. God demanded a sacrifice... his own kid. Why? so we can stop burning animals for him. Besides being bizarre in the extreme it's one of the most violent acts in the bible and it's perpetrated by god himself... in the new testament. Not violent?
David F, Just want to say you express the sentiments of the Old Testament beautifully. Much appreciated. People seem to forget that Christians believe God did not act until many prophets were sent and ignored, many warnings were sent and ignored until finally the channels of grace had been closed off completely. Man brought about his own fate and God gave us a way out by sending Jesus, whose message is also ignored by many of those who most need to hear it. Christianity has been able to reform itself into a gentler, less fanatical version of its former self due largely to Jesus' admonition to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. This allowed Christians to eventually separate the Church from the State without feeling they had lost some integral part of their faith. I often wonder if Islam will ever be able to make the same transformation.
ok, if you really believe the old testament it isn't a major influence in christianity we can just ignore it for now. Lets think about the very symbol of christianity (as described in the new testament) for a minute. It's a cross... WITH A GUY NAILED TO IT, can you honestly tell me there is no violence built into christianity? Seriously, your symbol is a person being tortured to death, that says a lot in my opinion.
buffys, Christ is not being tortured to death by Christians. Christ, when they came for Him, went like a lamb to the slaughter. The whole point of the symbolism of the Cross is that Jesus did not fight back but went willingly.
yeah, god required his sons death. A painful, humiliating, extended death so I ask myself why did he require it? Since god makes up the rules I'd assume he (being all powerful and all knowing) could come up with a less violent way to get his sacrifice. Maybe, if he'd have considered it at all, it might have occurred to him that the only reason that sacrifices were necessary in the first place is because he demanded them. Think about how ridiculous that is. I keep picturing god thinking to himself, "hmmm, how can I get around this animal sacrifice stuff? there's got to be a way that I can talk to humans one on one (he seems to forget at this point that he's god and can do whatever the hell he wants) ... Oh! of course, I'll have a kid of my own and let the humans kill him, it's the sacrifice that keeps on giving!" Animal (old testament) and human (new testament) sacrifices. Like it or not violence is built into christianity on a very fundamental level. Imagine what you'd think if buddhism's symbol, for example, wasn't a relaxed fat guy but a guy hanging from a noose or a guy being burned alive. You'd think buddhists were psychopaths.
Oh right Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Shall I mention the word "Crusades"? .... and as for the Inquisition ..well
Where the hell do you people get your ideas from ?????? The cross is a symbol of the resurrection which is the foundation of Christianity. Spend some time in the religion forum - you might learn something.
Everyone uses the crusades though, lets get a bit more recent. How about burning "witches", abuse of the native americans - physical, sexual, mental - in "christian" schools (not to mention forced cultural reprograming), the ku klux klan, violence against gays and doctors... all under the guise of doing "god's work". Did you know there are roughly 400 militia groups in the US and the majority are christian based? are you trying to say that is just a coincidence? I won't even include the unbelievable number of recently convicted pedophile priests. But I think the most compelling point showing christianity is just as violent at it's core as any other major religion comes from the new testament (Matthew 10:34): Jesus: "Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Good point buffys, Jeeeez, have you read the next line: Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Sounds like he's into domestic violence too.. But this is World events forum, this really belongs to the Religion forum....How about you starting a thread on this? Could be interesting.. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
well, I didn't start this thread so what do I know? Religion and politics are often hard to separate, the thread is called, "Is Islam Racist & Violent?" and the mod didn't move it so I won't argue. I think this thread fits fairly equally, in both the "world events" or "religion" areas. So I'm happy to let the mods decide.
buffys, The entire chapter you are quoting occurs when Jesus warns those who would follow Him about the consequences of people around them, such as their families turning against them. Jesus is not threatening but letting His disciples know what they're in for. Here's the verse including the lines before it: 28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows. 32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household. Jesus knew His coming would inspire both belief and disbelief and people who followed Him would face resistance and persecution.
Not to address the entire question of the thread but the crusades, as deplorable as they may be in retrospect, didn't occur in a vacuum. Yes they were given papal legitimacy but the original seed for the crusades was a request for help from the Byznatine emperor Alexei. The Byznatines had just suffered a catastrophic defeat at Manzikurt at the hands of the turks and now a huge swath of christian byzantium was subjugated by the turks. The previously christian middle east had been subject to 400 years of muslim conquest and aggression(jihad) it wasn't until Alexei called for aid that the christian west reacted. The crusade was meant to be a military expedition to assist Byzantium but developed a life of it's own after being endorsed as a holy mission by the pope.
I think it's worth emphasizing here that Christianity owes it's *gentler, less fanatical version" in large part to the secular intellectuals of the enlightenment, who shamed the church into change. A mere 300 years ago the christian establishment was still burning witches at the stake....Jesus'admonition didn't seem to mean much then.
"A mere 300 years ago the christian establishment was still burning witches at the stake....Jesus'admonition didn't seem to mean much then. " Well lets look back at the year 1700..a time of ignorance, a lack of science, education, technology, legal system, womans rights, rights in general, there was slavery etc..etc.. We have come along way in 300 years. In fac the MAJORITY of the world has come along way in 300 years. However, certain cultures have not.
true enough but those advancements were made in spite of religion not as a result of it. In fact, you'll find the majority of those achievements were actively resisted by religion. And what groups are still fighting the hardest against the progress you mentioned? religious groups. The only reason we have more freedoms than some other countries is because we took religion (christianity in our case) out of the decision making process. What astounds me is how often people point to other cultures and say," hey, we might have been monsters for 99% of our history but last year we changed, so why the hell haven't you changed yet!"
Exactly ! The majority of the world has come a long way in 300 years because of secularism; Christianity has learned from it, but Islam isn't even under starting orders.
Hello David Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I do. Who interprets those scriptures for you? I mean for you personally David. Did you pick up the good book one day in a second hand bookstore and say to yourself. "Gee! this bible looks interesting I think I'll read it!" or did you get your first bible elsewhere? Does Jimmy Swaggart read scripture the same way as John Paul or the Klu Klux Clan? So who's reading do you agree with and what makes it the 'right' one? If you ain't figured it out yet the answers simple. Religion is a tool for social control, to suggest that one religion is 'better' than another mearly demonstrates how deep into the mire you have sunk. You can always spot the priests in any society just look out for the well fed guy. (If you don't belive that I suggest you take a trip to Sub Saharan Africa) Jews christians and muslims are all in the same boat. Your all Abrahams children so why quibble over what your local priest says? Fuck him! If you can't face burning you allotted holy pamphlet then try reading the books far away from anybody who wants to tell you what they mean. Oops but I guess your one of those people eh? You should all be out trying to fuck over the Hindus. God damn polytheists! Dee Cee
BTW David You might wanna see Tiassas neglected take on the subject of Islamic morality. http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=37440 Dee Cee
GUILTY S. ARABIA! Saudi Arabia, the GOLIATH Investigate & expose Saudi Arabia. Investigate the evil Empire that has created the Terror monster for three decades. That is STILL Boosting those so called "charities". That are the biggest exporters of: Oil and Wahabbi-Hate. Don't listen to their English, PR SHOW to us, but to their Arabic words to their people and especially to their action. Amazing how ONLY after the Saudi Militants have slaughtered American Mr. Paul Johnson, they "found" , Al Qaeda Confirms Death of Al-Muqran the killers, and so RAPIDLY all of a sudden. Of course they are part of the BLOODY problem. ---------- And This is from a media source who's in no way immune of Bias Arabism: CNN.com - Lawmakers: Saudi Arabia allowed terror to thrive - Jun 18, 2004
