Inconclusivity

Hi Guys,

I was wondering if anyone wanted to join in a discussion about why paranormal abilities seem to consistantly yeild inconsistant or inconclusive results and outcomes?

Why does the universe "tease " us with our potential only to make us remain constantly unable to reach any conclusive position on this subject.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

The first subject to be discussed would be what criteria you're using to evaluate the body of parapsychological research so as to yield the results as inconclusive.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Conclusive to my way of thinking are results that can be predicted consistantly.

IN a form that would normally be considered as conclusive for any ability, like walking, talking, athletics and computer programming etc etc.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I think the results will always be inconclusive because the paranormal abilities are linked to subconscious, not the conscious. The trend in psychology(iatry) is to not control the subconscious, not to repress it too much. Hence, the subconscious goes weee-lala and so do the paranormal abilities. The point seems to be to hit a balance point between the conscious and the subconscious, where the subconscious can be directed in creative processes, inventions, suggestions, intuition, etc. Same goes for paranormal abilities: they can only be directed, once in a while (very hard thing to do, since these abilities aren't common and require various degrees of effort from those who have them, unlike walking).

But still, people are predictable only to a certain extent, because of constant change. Even the conscious can't be predicted completely. Surely, there is conditioning, but there are so many factors playing key role that even conditioning may not work perfectly well in some cases. Same goes for paranormal things.

 

Yes, they very much are. People seldom change to such an extent that they are not predictable.

...or there is simply is no such thing as paranormal abilities.

...because the researchers and the hopefuls jump the gun. The possiblility that humans do not have the power to change anything beyond what is physical (using their own hands and feet). That maybe the mind is nothing more than a muscle to coordinate our being.

Or very possibly the pressure to produce results becomes a road bump in the way of something that might really be paranormal. While the premise is quite interesting and exciting the fact that every Joe Schmoe has a vivid dream once in a while, wakes up and reads too much into, is what drives the credibility away from paranormal reseacrh...even from this subforum itself.

The fact that those who propose such powers never actually show any evidence of it, but only go on and on about it is what takes away seriousness or any decent consideration away from the subject.

The fact that when results are asked to be produced, only runaround answers are given is what drives skeptics to go on against the field itself.

The biggest nail in the coffin against paranormal activity is how it is blatantly explioted. For something that isn't even proven to exist in the first place it surely is used to make money....billions a year. The way it dupes gullible people out of their money is what is disgusting and vile about the whole thing.

Is that to say that paranormal activity doesn't exist...not at all. It may or may not but I see it this way: If there is such a thing then it must be personal to the person who has the gift, not something to be shown off like a parlor trick but something respected and mostly kept private, to undertand in one's own vicinity of mind....not on T.V to call for dead relatives.

 

Not 100%, which was my point.

As an individual grows from a child into an adult.... Heh. Ok. Well, yes, after a certain age, change is smaller and less likely. But an individual still keeps learning from experience. I mean, if you're completely the same you were at age 3, there's something abnormal about your development.

Well yes, these abilities may be normal, but due to skeptics and huge expectations of believers, they seem abnormal or non-existant at all.

I agree with what you say afterwards.
Except that, as other aspects of intelligence, these abilities can and should be used to advantage of the individual and, with consent, to advantage of society. Moreover, as we explore the abilities of our brain, all data is valuable.
For example, suppose these "paranormal" abilities do exist. How do they get produced in the brain?

 

I disagree. Granted paranormal activity is present, humanity is simply not ready to take hold of something that intense. We are already disgusting and vain with what we have now so adding to that a higher form of omnipotence is only further digging away into the hole. Even the choice few ,can and will, be exploited by the masses.

I would imagine the same way thoughts are formed but much, MUCH, faster (since they'd have to break some sort of dimension to forsee future or past). But the human mind is not that strong...hell it starts hurting itself when a little conflict is present.

 

Ok, next question. What specific body of evidence(Ie: paraphysics experiments conducted in laboratories and and published in peer reviewed literature) are you applying that standard to, to render the outcomes inconsistant and inconclusive?

 

Am I to understand that you were not willing to participate in an objective discussion of this topic, Quantum? I'd be more than willing, mind you. . . perhaps you didn't think your opening statement through enough?

 

Perhaps you are right in stating this....hmmm yes I agree, I didn't think it through fully before posting.

I guess I am asking the question on the premise that although we have billions of paranormal events experienced annually none are able to be proved conclusively or are able to be repeated in a way that could be considered conclusive.

 

well its hard subject... look at it his way... most people that might have a ability might never know it... and the ones that acidently did somthing would explain it away and never thing about it agine... then if the do have a ablity and they ask someone about it at the stage where they cant control it then they get made fun of because they faild to do it agine under pressure... so really if some one waked up to you and said make people pass out just by touching them what would you say to them... humm your nuts... odds are... and if they proved it to you you would explain it off as the person was in on it from the begining... and if you get him to not beleave in him self for a instant the might not be able to do it agine....

here is a example.... lets explain it as moto cross... if the normal person just rides over the hills gitting no or little are all there lifes but some get a little air and they are like wow but no one is around to see it then when they try to jump agine and they fail infront of a audiance then it crushes them when they crash... and if you dont get back on the bike after a crash you are not going to be jumping at all... well if people say yes get back and try agine and agine odds are they will but if people say you are stupid or they are lyers and are nuts.... they they sure as hell are not going to... and if they ever do they are not going to tell anyone about it...

take it or leave it thats how it is... untell we people exept it then no one will seek it... and if they where found out to be diffent odds are 2 things would happen one some would idolize him others would want him dead.... so is flanting your power worth it in the end?

 

Why does the universe "tease " us with our potential only to make us remain constantly unable to reach any conclusive position on this subject.

perhaps it is ourselves that are teasing ourselves with our own possible abilities ?

but you pointing at the universe is a good thing nonetheless, it lets you know that everything is connected.
--

ill tell you what i think. i think that our societies have become so automated and so mechanical that humans on the earth have been turning into drones almost, giving away their spirituality. its true, where has all our spirituality gone ? it was there in the past, one can easily see.

the problem: technology has gotten a firm grip on society, and spirituality has deteriorated. i have said this before, and will say it again:

Technological Evolution and Spiritual Evolution must keep a Balance in order for the Life Forms to evolve balanced.

Think about it, any new technology we can come up with--- what do we use it for FIRST ? The establishment WILL use this NEW TECHNOLOGY FIRST TO BUILD WEAPONS, SECURITY, AND SPY EQUIPMENT, before they even let SCIENTISTS begin experimenting with the technology for GOOD PURPOSES, such as Stem Cell research, Antigravity / Alternative Power solutions...

look at it- WE ARE NOT READY AS A PLANET FOR ADVANCED POWER, such as PARANORMAL / TELEKINETIC / TELEPATHY / ETC - THerefore the results on any test trying to prove these things will no doubt turn out INCONCLUSIVE.

until we are ready as a WHOLE, not as INDIVIDUALS, then doorways will open.

I wish more people could understand this. And I Try.

 

The name paranormal says it all.
para-(iircc) by the side of .
Paranormal is not normal, therefore seeking a normal standard is doomed to fail.

My good friend Charles is a great sceptic. He is 60+,an educated engineer and for all his scepticism he CRAVES a greater mystery. I asked him once to just pretend that paranormal events exist, and are not some massive uneducated delusion. He said he couldn't because he needed proof. "I'm not going to be duped" he says.
I can respect that. Now I don't care if he is a believer or not, I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. He was willing to experiment (A true scientist) and so we did a few things. I showed him how to feel his aura and for a second his eyes lit up then the sceptic kicked in and he said I implanted the suggestion of the tingling he felt in his hands. Then he said something scientific(searching for a reason), then he said "Damn". He couldn't explain it, but he wouldn't deny the truth of his experience.
Anyway long story short.(tooo late) It is my experience that seeing is believing and those that have seen will rarely be dissuaded(&more likely to believe in other "impossibilties") and those that haven't, demand proof that can not be given.
What gets me though is when someone has a paranormal event happen and talk as if they walk on water or talk down to those that haven't. Same for religion.

Red Green says it best "remember I'm pullin' for ya, we're all in this together"

 

Since posting this thread I have had a littel time to think.
I thought about dreams. Now very few people have manged to see someone elses dream yet they accept their reality usually with out question. Afterall everybody dreams yes. But do we know what they are or their purpose? Are they proveable scientifically to have occurred? DO we question whether a dream is possible?

Obviously the answer is no on all counts......similar could be said for the paranormal.

Another
People may be incredibly sceptical and yet when in time of trouble will get on their knees and pray. What exactly are they doing? What of who are they trying to communicate with? What method are they using? Telepathy.....what?

Like dreams most people pray.....

 

/Sigh.
The current view is, dreams do have a purpose. That's how the subconscious makes itself heard. Which is extremely important for sanity.

Why do skeptics pray? Because when there's nothing left to do, when there's no other hope, "god" is all we have.
Actually, I like your explanation on praying. Some few years ago, as I was washing dishes after dinner (running water, eh?) it occured to me, that god could be something like plasma (air?) that connects all people. Therefore, if we pray to god, we pray to ourselves and other people/animals/etc. And, if we actually pray to all those things, prayers will be successful. I tried, with some minor wishes. Worked well. Then again, I didn't wish for things I couldn't achieve by myself. Ah, yes, it seemed as if I could alter another's decision that way. Yes, that's why I tried it. But it's questionable.

 

I think the point I was attempting to make was that whilst we accept quite readilly that a person dreams ( no proof necessary) some people have great difficulty in accepting the possibility of the paranormal with out the same "burden of proof."

A person who may be devout in his prayers may be skeptical of telepathy, yet employ telepathy in the act of praying.

Whitewolf you may recall my attitude to working on our ability to dream. What you have stated above is close to why I am reluctant to do so, or help some one to do so.

 

Isn't dreaming a function of the amygdala laying down short term memories into long term storage? I'm pretty sure that's where current scientific thought rests on the matter. The subconscious has no need to make itself heard, for the very reason that it's the "subconscious;" it deals with processes that would burden the conscious mind with too much activity and aren't necessary for consciousness. Whitewolf, if a person had to regulate breathing, heart rate, body temperature, etc consciously it'd go a long way toward making that person insane. Therefore one's subconscious would have very much motivation to remain subconscious. Which brings me to another point, subconscious is exactly that; subconsious. It can't be "heard," by the consciousness, it's not a seperate entity that exists along side consciousness. If you're aware of something, you are conscious of it, you cannot have a subconscious experience.

 

I think that there are at least a couple of reasons why paranormal activities tend to produce inconclusive and/or inconsistent results. Firstly, as other people have mentioned, the information provided by "paranormal" comes into awareness, in an other than normal way, it is difficult in many cases to relate it in regular terms. One can see the difficulties with factually analysing a dream for instance.

Secondly, a test of paranormal ability may be, by necessity of a trivial, non real world example of the phenomena. It is very difficult to see how guessing the order of cards in a deck is ever a truly important thing for anyone to know.

Finally, I believe that paranormal phenomena is inconclusive, because if it were ever conclusively established to someone's satisfaction, then they would be forced to look at reality in a completely different fashion. Given our cultural training, we would go from a situation where our perceptions come from our 5 senses + our consciousness, instead of a much more open ended and confusing situation.

Cheers,

 

What body of evidence are you examining in order to come to the conclusion that results are inconclusive? Seriously.

 

http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Staring/index.html is some pretty decent stuff IMO. Probably won't convince a rigid skeptic, but I think it is at least suggestive.

Cheers,

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!