Does the west view Islam as enemy ?

Hello surenderer

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I read your post and you make many clear points. I would like to give you my thoughts on what you said here:

So i am thinking. If i was an islamic radical and i wanted the muslim people to wage jihad war with non believers how can do do it?

I must do something that will provoke an attack on muslim land or i must do something to provoke an attack on islam and on islamic minorities in infidel nations. I must cause muslims to react to engage in "Koranic legal" self defense.

So what is the best way to do this. I must carry out terrable acts of mass murder of infidels to provoke a violent response against all muslims from the infidels. It is when the infidels engage in war in an islamic country that my actions of terrorisim have created a pretext for the majority of true Koran following muslims to engage in Legal Jihad against the infidel invader.

So in the end the false islamic radical gets what he wants. A global war between belevers and non believers for He is sure that allah will intervien to ensure victory for islam in this global war no matter how well armed the non believer is.

In the currect situation after what has happened in New York and in Madrid most of the non believers are still seeing these acts as the acts of a small minority of muslims (bad muslims)but as more and more of these mass killings take place this majority will evaporate. I believe the only way for this situation to be braught back from disaster is for muslim people like you to in some way take control of the radicals.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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Surrenderer:
Hello,
I am a muslim and i read these boards everyday but i never post because i would rather read what people think without my personal influences or opinions influencing everyones opinion of muslims.I must say however that there are 1.5 billion muslims in the world and yet everytime someone whats to critizize islam they use Al Queda or Osama as examples countries like turkey or India or Indonesia that have massive muslim populations are always overlooked yet they dont sponser or encourage terrorism Of course there are bad muslims in the world just as there are bad christians jews etc..... i mean the holocoust crusades slavery indian massacres kkk etc.... where all done in the name of christianity werent they? How about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians now? I know that neither of these examples are what the religion or those who practice it are suppose to be about. Islam does give specific examples of when to fight (land ,self-defense, defending religion) and how to fight (no killing of innocents, clergy, no "scorched earth" etc..) so anyone that does any of these things is not living the life they are supposed to. The problem with Islam is education. When the Koran speaks of fighting "infidels" it is speaking of the time in which those passages were revelaed to the prophet Muhamaad (saws) not of anything going on now, but if a radical muslim with his own agenda whats to mis-interpete that message then if one isnt educated they will go and blow themselves up and kill innocent people(2 things that are serious sins in islam) I read alot of things that PM writes on these boards some i agree with alot that i dont but he isnt a represenitive of all muslims on these boards let alone on these boards.

Exactly!!
Muslims are not the only guilty party. The Jews who believe that they should get all of Israel because it was promised to them in their holy book are one. Dude, just because an ancient book says you own a place doesn't mean you do. The Palastineans have just as much right to have Israel as the Jews. But that doesn't mean that they're right to bomb the Israelis. They're both a guilty party over there.
Face it, extreme belief in misplaced literal interpretations of any religion breeds extremeism.

 

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Hello Back,
I appreciate the respect your post gives my views

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as far as what you said though ....to me at lest, as soon as a radical starts killing innocents then he is one that shouldnt be believed or followed but i must ask you...do you really believe that muslims have provoked attacks on our lands? please tell me what the Iraq people have done to deserve what they are enduring...... on 9-11 in this country 3000 innocent people died out of app 250 million which was indeed a tragedy and the muslim world mourned with america (except sadaam) but since the war with iraq at least 10-15k have died out of a country the size of california. that to me seems like an attack that would provoke a response dont you think?

 

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As you have said yourself you believe the people who carried out these killings are not true koran following muslims. And from the poll taking place here and from what i have read and from the talks i have had with american and others the majority of people believe that they where "Bad False" muslims. But the fact remains they claimed to be true muslims many of them from Saudi Arabia considered by many to be the most islamic of islamic nations. So i believe that false muslims provoked an attack on Afganistan a war engaged to attack Alquida and its tallaban protector. Iraq is another matter.

The common people of Iraq have done nothing to deserve what they are enduring. Terrorism and weapons of mass distraction where only a pretext for the powers that be in America to justify the removal of saddam hussain. His removal from power was what this war was all about. After the defeat of saddams army in Kuwait the americans where confident that the Iraqi elite’s would kick saddam out of power because of the disaster he lead his army into in kuwait. The american president called for the iraqi people to bring down saddam. But they made a mistake they should have called for the iraqi army to bring down saddam because the common people who tried to topple saddam where northern kurds and southern Shiites. This caused the people who could have toppled saddam (the sunni Army elite) to give their support to saddam in fear of the vengeance of these peoples. So the americans failed to remove saddam a man they feared.

Why did they fear saddam? Because they knew saddam they had years of dealings with Him and helped Him in his war against Iran. They knew about his use of chemical weapons against the Iranian revolutionary guards in the battles near Basra they knew about his use of gas against the Kurds and they knew about his desire to re create the Babylonian empire. An empire that includes what is today isreal/palistine. Now the americans also know the isrealies they know how the isrealies will react to an attack from a nuclear armed arab nation. Isreal will react with a massive nuclear attack on all the arab nations. isreal has over 200 nuclear weapons. Do you have any idea what damage that could do to the oil supply of the world if they ever used them?

Yes what is happening in Iraq today Is provoking a response and many muslims are going to iraq to fight and more and more muslims are calling for jihad against America. Surenderer can you not see that this is exactly what the false muslim radicals have wanted for years???

You know that on the day that 9-11 happened pictures where beamed into my house of muslims in the west bank and in Egypt celebrating in the streets at the news of the death of these people. Car horns beeping children being thrown sweets and woman doing that distinctive arab victory sound.

Surenderer that is a tragedy but you must realize that the day that the radicals get their hands on a nuclear weapon and detonate it in an american city that 10-15k will rapidly turn into 100-150 million dead. maybe even 1-1.5 billion dead.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

i agree with most of your points however i could easily take a camera and show maybe 100 or 200 people celebrating something and make it look like 1 or 2 thousand which is what was done. Its not just muslims who dislike the american goverment it's most of the world but i dont think anyone(except the radicals) who dislike the american citizens. You say muslims shouldnt get involved with the suffering of the iraqi people yet we did sit by and watch 13 years of sanctions destroy the iraqi culture and people. Saudi Arabia doesnt claim to practice traditional islam but they practice Whabbism which is completly different and much more oppresive anyway i disagree with combating potential violence with actual violence and i disagree with the notion of creating war to create peace what muslim would agree with that kind of aggression? do you not think christians or americans would behave the same way if the tables were turned?

 

Bringing India into the discussion is absurd, because they're a.) a secular democracy, and b.) have to deal with all kindsa shit from Pakistan.

 

If that bomb in the picture you provided was tied to a suicidal militant
then I would agree that a large percentage of the U.S. have visions of
this come to mind the moment they hear 'Muslim' or 'Islam'. It is raw human
nature to engage the negative and nearly completely ignore the positive
(regardless of how small the population associated with the negative
actually is). Planes crashing into buildings, busses exploding, car bombs,
random people bombs, etc. These are 'extreme' negative events and humans
will focus on these more than anything else.

 

Surrenderer it is very nice to have an intelligent and well reasoned muslim on the boards, stick around please. I agree with many of your points and as I stated earlier I don't bear any ill will towards muslims, I have and still do work with muslims. I think one of the main problems is that there are many passages (the majority in hadith and sunnah) that are or can too easily be interpreted as hostile towards non-beleivers. As a former christian I have a hard time believing that there are instructions for waging warfare of any kind sent down by an all merciful and all loving god. As you cite the crusades were waged in the name of religion but they were in reality set in motion for political reasons. We know the crusades had some negative impacts on christians as well as muslims and jews, but I want to ask you one thing. Do you as a muslim condemn historical jihads that spread islam as christians condemn crusades? I am really curious because so far I haven't spoken with a single muslim who thinks that the jihads were anything but wonderful for the people on the receiving end (again I am not talking about present times I am referring to historical islamic invasions of non-muslim lands). As for the holocoust, slavery, indian massacres, kkk none of those had anything to do with any christian teaching.

As adstar says and you probably know taming militant islam should really be done by muslims. Though I worry, how can muslims tame extremeists in thier midst if they don't even hear about them in the news. You see Al Hussain didn't even know that muslims are commiting genocide against other muslims in Sudan now. I suppose it is much more popular to report about how some Iraqis died fighting americans or as a result of the fighting going on rather than the fact that 1 million african muslims have been driven from their homes many murdered or raped and are now facing catostrphic starvation and disease. This should be addressed by the muslim world and fast before the non-muslim world fells compelled to put a stop to it and create more oppurtunities for vilification of non-believers in the process.

 

Thanks for your words....the problem with muslims trying to tame the extremists in their mists is that we are a target for them as much as westerns are. ask a policeman in iraq who is simply trying to feed his family but is labeled as a Kadif (unbeliever) and murdered. I do agree that muslims in history have done things that arent "islamic" but the difference between those wars and the crusades were that when the muslims waged wars they gave the opposing armies and citizens the chance to still practice their religion. In muslim conquered lands their were still synagouges(sp?) and churches and christians and jews were still allowed to worship their way however with the crusades the christians mission was to wipe out all muslims out of jersulem man, woman, child and they did their was no option to live with their attrocities. Anyway the only way to really stop extremists as a muslim is to educate non-muslims so that you guys can tell the difference which is my goal here.

 

Hi surenderer

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I am not sure if this reply is to me and other posts or just to me i will do my beat to reply to your points.

Sorry but i am confused as to what you mean here. So i will wait for your clarification.

True most of the world dislikes the powers that control the USA. The USA is controlled by a very small and greedy power elites. There are many nations in this world with very small and greedy power elites. Actually i cannot think of a nation that does not have a very small and greedy power elites in control of it

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i think the reason people dislike the USA more than most of the others is not because they engage in more evil but because they promote themselves as bringers of truth, justice, freedom and democracy. People tend to hate an evil hypocrite more that just an evil power.

Well i look back at my post and i cannot see anywhere where i have said that muslims should not get involved with the suffering of the Iraqi people. But I do think that muslims should take time to consider how they get involved. what actions will help the iraqi people the most? What actions will inflame the situation and lead to even worse calamity and what actions will achieve the goal without leading to worse calamity? What actions can be taken to prevent this happening again?

Is whabbism more oppressive or more pure? i suppose i will leave that one for muslims to decide?

There is a saying "the best form of defense is attack." this is what the USA did in afganistan and why george bush replied to concerns that US soilders would come under attacks from radicals in Iraq with the statement "bring it on" which is a challenge and invitation to the radicals to attack american soilders. Why did he say this? because the more radicals who are trying to get in iraq the less of them that are trying to get into the USA. You see the USA has made the battle field for this war on terrorism not on its soil but on iraqi soil. when you think of it you will see that it has logic to it. So they send a few poor soilders over to iraq as sacrifices to islamic radicals who dream of dying in jihad. For them this is no big sacrifice the power elities sons do not put their lives at risk on battle fields, the US army is filled with the sons of common americans not rich americans.

Americans did wage a war of independence against the British to establish their nation So they would engage in resistance against an occupier. Maybe if they though the occupation was only a temporary thing they might choose to keep their cool and be patient.


As for Christians that is a harder question to answer. There are Christians and there are christians. I am a follower of the Messiah Jesus, as such i will not take part in war i will not kill another person not even in self defense. It is better for me to die and be with God in eternity, then to kill and spend forever in a lake of fire. If a Christian is killed because he is a follower of Jesus then they become a martyr. So muslims will never engage TRUE Christians in battle if they do kill True Christians it will be in a slaughter.

As for false christians they are just another religion like the rest on this earth they will engage anyone in war and have done so many times in history.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

Adstar,

I agree one hundred percent that Iraq was just the place chosen for this war as a sort of Islamist radical magnet, because right after 9/11 I recall a general from the Pentagon saying on television that this conflict between Americans and Muslims was a long time coming and we were not going to have it amidst our civilians, we were going to have it amidst theirs. It sounds cold but if you're charged with protecting your people, what better way to do it than to draw your enemy in the wrong direction? Many soldiers that have been interviewed on their thoughts about the war have said "better here than at home" so you know it's something that is discussed, or told to them.

When I read an article recently which stated that many young Muslim militant radicals from Europe were being drawn to Iraq I realized the strategy was working.

 

This thread is a gross over simplification of the issue. The enemy happens to be Islamic and are considered enemy because they "First" declared the West as an enemy". But they do not represent Islam overall. They are a bunch of stupid supremist not unlike Hitler.

PS: They will indeed meet Hitlers end.

 

Sup Adstar actually my post was responding to Paths post

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anyway I agree with what you said but as far as Whabbism is concerned to me anyway the fact that it's named after a man means that it's not perfect and who would want to follow a religion that they dont fell is perfect? there is a reason that that religion is only followed in Arabia. When Bush says "bring it on" doesnt he realize that he is putting ALL americans in danger not just soldiers in iraq but citizens here also.As far as true christians in battle if TRUE muslims were to actually follow the Koran then there wouldnt be any battles because islam only wants muslims to fight aggression and i know that true christians arent aggresive so then we both could live side by side

 

Then we have a problem this turns into a vicous cycle if non-muslims are the ones that are left to deal with militant islam then the images and stories resulting from those actions are broadcast around the muslim world and muslims say (not all but enough) "see how they mistreat and oppress us" militant islam stems from mainstream islam (as uncomfortable as that may be) and until mainstream muslims take back their religion (with any sacrifices required) then islam will easily be perceived as violent. I find it ironic that many muslims are seemingly willing to become martyrs as long as it is related to dying while killing kaffirs but as soon as it is fellow muslims we are talking about, all that bravado vanishes.

no offense but this is a common misconception, amongst westerners as well as muslims. A close look at the history of jihad shows that tolerance for non-believers was solely dependant upon the individual rulers. Some were indeed tolerant while others were not. Population wise india suffered the most from jihads and they almost never received any respect for thier beliefs since they are polytheistic (I don't want to get into it here but you can go to the history section on sciforums and look up my posts in the thread "an unfair way of thinking" ). The crusades were also very limited in time and scope compared to jihadic history and after the initial bloodbath, which was awful, the leaders of the crusade quickly realized that they needed the muslim population to make the new provinces work. There are accounts of how newly arrived crusaders were shocked that in the Knights Templar's headquarters there was a small mosque for visiting muslims to worship. I don't know if you know who the knights templar were but they were the warrior monks of christendom. Specific accounts are hard to find since allowing infidels to worship didn't sell well in europe but there were undoubtedly many active mosques during the crusaders reign. But again that is a whole nother thread

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I think it is more important to educate muslims. You can't educate non-muslims saying "this is islam a religion of peace and love" and then have those "newly educated" non-muslims go home and look at the news and see reports about suicide bombers or terrorists (regardless of the background) claiming they are acting in the name of allah.

 

Do you have any reference for the Knight's templar doing this? All that I've heard was that the Pope condemned them because their initiation ritual of testing someone under pain of death to spit on a cross.

Your reference for Europeans not allowing infidel's to worship is?

 

LOL.... What do you mean by a false Christians, are they the people who pretend to believe in Christ or what?

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I agree 100%

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Me too...........

 

A true Christian not only believes that Jesus is the Messiah But also believes in the teachings of Jesus.

Millions of people want Jesus as their savor but very few accept Jesus as their Lord.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days