1984

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by sevenblu, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. sevenblu feeling blu Registered Senior Member

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    George Orwell, most of the reviews say, is a pessimistic prophet who accurately describes the future of man if we are allowed to lose out human qualities for the "will" of a totalitarian state.

    In the US (where I live), this is not the case. We have (or percieve to have) the freedom to think and act as we see fit. We have Democracy in a puritanical sense - so 1984 does not fit in with the standards of modern thought. The properties of Ingsoc do not apply in our form of government (in most forms of government in the "free world").

    Intresting was the idea that the citizen is always watched and goaded into thinking and believing a certain way - especially in the falsification of the past to justify the present state of being. I have always thought that history seems a bit shady, because the "people in charge" write the history books...

    He who controls the present controls the past.

    But Orwell got it all wrong; because a totalitarian government is not allowed to exist. Those who favor democracy usually impose the idea on other states because the "feel" it is in the best intrest of humanity. Hense the war in Iraq.

    But in 1984, citizens of Oceania are tricked into believing the lies imposed by the government through a constant bombardment of propoganda. We are not so easilly fooled by propoganda because of the Internet and global media...

    So how can a "free" country control its citizens, or at least keep them pacified to a point where they never move up the class ladder and those in power remain in power? It seems to me that erasing the past and teaching only one line (in the "free world") seems near impossible.

    I suppose that we are controlled by a constant bombardment of not just one idea, but so many ideas that it becomes hard to seperate them. The average person is beratted with so much media (television, movies, newspapers, music, etc...) that forming a solitary opinion on one idea seems utterly impossible.

    If we allow man's mind to be pacified not by withholding information, but numb it by giving too much information, then man's will wains. Consider the movie "a clockwork orange." We are almost "forced" to watch what others watch and believe what others believe, or risk the horrid possibility of being considered an outcast...

    Individual thought in the US is discouraged because media tells us what we want, what we should look like, and how we should act. Most intellegent people don't buy into this Bull, but the majority do and so conformity to those around us is inevitable.
     
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  3. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

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    First of all, 1984 is really more about Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia.

    "But Orwell got it all wrong; because a totalitarian government is not allowed to exist. Those who favor democracy usually impose the idea on other states because the "feel" it is in the best intrest of humanity. Hense the war in Iraq."

    Do you not notice the blatant contradiction in this idea?

    "But in 1984, citizens of Oceania are tricked into believing the lies imposed by the government through a constant bombardment of propoganda. We are not so easilly fooled by propoganda because of the Internet and global media..."

    Really? Most of the population believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

    Finally, "Democracy in a puritanical sense" ... what does that mean, exactly?
     
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  5. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

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    Uh, what's the name of those laws.... the recent ones.... Where we say that those who are suspected to be terrorists can be held (under what conditions?) I don't remember exactly, I just remember that most find this as a sign of loss of our freedoms.
    "Puritanical" is refering to those puritans, protestants, that came from Britain to America so that they could practice their version of Christianity. What the statement means to say is that puritans want to purify the world by instilling Democracy in it. Or so I see it, at least. Those "purifiers" want to do a whole lot of other things, that threaten freedom. But that's a different story.
     
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  7. sevenblu feeling blu Registered Senior Member

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    ..."But Orwell got it all wrong; because a totalitarian government is not allowed to exist. Those who favor democracy usually impose the idea on other states because the "feel" it is in the best intrest of humanity. Hense the war in Iraq."

    Yes I can see the contradiction, because by imposing democracy they are in a sense becoming totalitarian - or at least, using totalitarian techniques. But these "techniques" are used as means to justify their end... A "free" world. If you notice, I always kept the word free in quotes. I did this because, although the powers preach freedom tell us that this is the motive, it probably is not. Democracy, in theory, is the best form of government, but I'm not sure if their has ever been a true democracy outside of fiction. The closest I can think of is the country of Utopia in the book by Saint T. More.

    Perhaps I should have said, "We are not so easilly fooled by propoganda [for long] because of the Internet and global media..."

    In 1984, their were hardly any contradictory ideas to counter the propaganda. Had it not been for global media then most of the country would still believe that their are WMDs in Iraq. I think the focus of your comment should be on the fact that the wordbelieve is in the past tense...

    -------------

    I understand you point, but these are minor compared to the loss of freedoms described in 1984. And although the freedoms of these supected terrorists are at stake, their humanity is not - at least, I hope not.

    Thank you for that...

    The irony in this is quite obvious, but is justified through the "idea" of what a Democracy - what it is supposed to be. I guess what the government is saying is that, we have found the best way for people to live and we will impose it on the world. This seems a bit totalitarian... oh hell, it is conceptually totalitarian, but again - for what end are these actions being taken?

    Democracy, or at least the idea of a "free world" is such a wonderful idea, that these actions are justified (in the minds of those who spread their beliefs on the rest of the world like those that spread margarine on toast and pretend that it is butter).

    Exactly, and if I wanted to discuss that idea, I'd have posted in the politics or world events forums. It is an interesting point though. But I am more concerned on how the concepts of the novel 1984 can be related to a non-totalitarian state.

    Yes, Orwell was referring to the Hilter/Stalin regimes, and although comparisions can be drawn - I wonder if the techniques used by the thought police could be used in a democratic society? Basically, how is a "free" state controlled, and yet still have citizens that feel like they are free? Especially in this time of global networking...
     
  8. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

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    Well, to give you one example ... a number that you carry with you throughout your life that identifies you. This number's issued by the government, and is required on job and college applications, among other things. You know, your SSN.
     
  9. Carnuth i dont Registered Senior Member

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    USA PATRIOT Act - a clever Acronym which no one knows it is:
    Uniting and Stregnthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism. With such a clever name, why would you vote against it? Thatd be... unpatriotic!

    http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/hr3162.pdf

    http://www.masnet.org/articleinterest.asp?id=1248

    http://www.casperstartribune.net/ar...s/casper/5f5076bc13c1c28e87256ea20082ec2a.txt

    i had a bumpersticker: Bush/Orwell 2004 - but too many people are idiots and thought i was pro-bush so i took it off...
     
  10. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Sevenblu:
    We'll examine your delusions-
    "Their (the party's) lives are dedicated to world conquest, but they also know that its necessary that war should continue everlasting. Meanwhile, the fact that there is no danger of conquest makes the denial of reality possible, which is the special feature of Ingsoc- here is it necessary to repeat that by becoming continous, war has fudamentally changed its character"
    - the philogist named Syms in "1984"

    And how many times exactly has the shortest asshole in the world held press conferences with "WMD" on his lips?
    "Terrorirst and evil doers".
    "Bad people."
    "Enemies of the free world."

    Put your fingers up and count it for me. This is Ingsoc, courtesy of Bush.

    But they are allowed to thrive and the best, still, do.

    You just defined 'totaliatarian' somwhere between shooting yourself in the foot and sticking the other one in your mouth.

    By keeping them pacified.

    Numbing them down into a diabetic mind and a coma.
    You not only do this- better said, its not only *done*- with the comforts of home and the 'work' place. Its done subliminally with the very analogue of Newspeak-
    the narrowing down of thought with the narrowing of the vocabulary:

    "...thought crime (gendanken: in other words, Opinion) becomes literally impossible because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed expressed by exactly one word…Every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller. The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect."


    Thanks to our televisions and movie theaters and websites and cliffnotes, the language becomes 'perfect' .
    All with the proletariat's cooperation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2004
  11. macmarine Registered Member

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    4
    Man, I can't help but wonder where exactly you have been living in the last 4 years or so ... the once leading democracy in the western world (i.e. US of A) is on the brink of becoming a totalitarian monster, a so-called oligarchy - or rather a plutocraty - where big corporations own most of the media outlets and have firm control over what is being aired or printed.

    - Journalists get fired for writing their opinion if it happens to be criticizing the government (of course that is deemed un-american or unpatriotic), or simply because they show photographs of the caskets of soldiers who died in an unnecessary war ... a war the public has been lied into with "a little help" from the mass media. Only lately some of the bigger newspapers seem to recognize their shameful blindfoldedness during the last couple of years, e.g. the New York Times.

    - Almost all of the once independent radio stations in the US are now owned by a single corporation by the name of "Clear Channel" ... a media concentration that is not supposed to be allowed in *any* nation that calls itself a democracy ... but nethertheless got "waved through" by the Bush cronies. Now you have the utmost boring and utterly useless radio programming of any nation in the western world: 24/7 of unified bullshit aired from the east coast to the west coast. And of course they don't play the Dixie Chicks anymore but instead opt to entertain their half-brained listeners by burning piles of Dixie Chicks CDs ... you know, once upon a time in Germany things also started to go really FUBAR when people publicly began to burn books by "unpatriotic" authors ... go figure!

    - Critical and independent scientists are fired from boards and get silenced by withdrawal of fundings ... then they are replaced by blissfully ignorant bible thumpers loyal to the Bush "administration".

    - Meanwhile the neo-cons declare the Resident was not elected (yeah ... right!) but rather anointed by God! The Resident himself publicly declares that God told him to go after Saddam. In my book, people proclaiming that "God told me to start a war!" should be given sufficient amounts of neuroleptic drugs and be kept in a psychiatric ward ... not in the Oval Office!

    - The next election will make use of electronic voting employing machines made by companies loyal to the Republican party ... the owner of one of these "con-agencies" vowed to make his contribution so Resident Bush gets re-elected ... not that he has been elected in the first place ... can you say "Banana Republic"? If this weren't the US of A but instead a poor country in the Balcan or on the African continent the UN would send in inspectors to watch over the election process ... just to make sure everybody plays by the rules nicely.

    - Bush's cronies (e.g. Dick Cheney and Richard Perle) are happily defrauding the taxpayers of billions of dollars that go to Halliburton and the like ... they indeed have made a sport of "looting the commons" ... and of course there is nothing to be feared because the Resident signed a bill that prohibits any real investigation into these outrageous lootings because they are now deemed a matter of national security ... therefor not open to public scrutiny.

    And while all this shit happens at least 50% of the American public are still sure they live in a democracy and that they have a great government that is fighting for their individual freedoms and against international terrorism ... but are really outraged by Janet Jackson's nipplegate appearance on TV!? Not bad for a starter! Now *that* is what I would call brainwashing (... although on second thought that would require a people that still have some brains left).
     
  12. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Macmarine:
    You bear the earmark of a newbie.


    Welcome to sciforums.
     
  13. macmarine Registered Member

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    Yeah, well ... can't argue the obvious ... ;-)

    Thanks! And please excuse my poor command of the english language. I'm just a grumpy grampa from Germany hating to see one of his favourite places on earth getting raided by a bunch of corporate crooks, born-again christian fundamentalists and other hare-brains ...
     
  14. Carnuth i dont Registered Senior Member

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    a few thousand years and us Californians will have a nice island , i cant wait
     
  15. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    Hey that was a pleasure read macmarine, not all of us here in the US have our face buried in the sand, as to not know what the hell is going on. But I feel for the pathetic fools that have been stupified, by the greates propaganda machine the world has ever seen.

    YeA and welcome to sci!.

    Godless.
     
  16. Don Hakman Registered Senior Member

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    A tribute to George Orwell





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  17. sevenblu feeling blu Registered Senior Member

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    So, is there a media source that can be trusted?
     
  18. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    I don't see why you can't trust most major news outlets so long as you're able to tell the difference between reporting a fact, reporting a half-truth, and straight up editorializing. I know a lot of the pundits are able to do all three with a straight face, but it's not really so difficult to get a feel for it

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  19. the preacher fur is loose 666 Registered Senior Member

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    ah but we were in the past, the lack of media in the past, gave rise to the dictator and a type of big brother like saddam, he was watching his people and ruled with a iron hand many who did not tow the line were reeducated or would die in the process.
    was'nt it animal farm that was about stalins russia
    fancy using the word allowed,
    since when has anybody took notice of what they can or cant do.
     
  20. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Yup... only when they don't want to get caught.

    The kink in this whole thing IS the US media. To be honest, I was completely unaware of this until I was out of the country. Between BBC, AlJazzera, CNN, and FOX.. the difference was great. BBC was the only one which wasn't a television tabloid.

    Now, I don't think to go so far as to suggest that the governement is controlling the media... but the media is more worried about 'what sells' than 'what happens'. And.. well... being patriotic and war-chanting is what has been selling.
     
  21. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

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    That ain't me you're responding to, Mac.
     
  22. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Call them Americans if you please..

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  23. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Carries over into into the population.. sadly enough

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