A world with out religion

TONY1
the point of this thread is to debate its topic. If you reside to using childish remarks or as someone before put it "school yard tactics" i will not reply to you anymore. I am tired of it. If you wish to continue this debate support your point with some evidence other than that bible of yours. Try human nature and society they work a lot better, since its the real world.


I highly doubt you studied as many as you could find.

*Point is, you and your kind need to wake up and smell the incense. "Sin" is intrinsic to human behavior, and it is not going away as long as at least one human remains alive. *

-this is a very good point if you don't think this is true then you probably have never heard of instinct. It is how most life forms react when in put in certain situation; this also happens in human
nature.

 

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*Originally posted by some_guy01
the point of this thread is to debate its topic. If you reside to using childish remarks or as someone before put it "school yard tactics" i will not reply to you anymore. I am tired of it.*

?

*If you wish to continue this debate support your point with some evidence other than that bible of yours. Try human nature and society they work a lot better, since its the real world. *

Here's a real-world example.

Surely the churning of milk brings forth butter, and the wringing of the nose brings forth blood: so the forcing of wrath brings forth strife.
(Proverbs 30:33, KJV).

Are you suggesting that churning milk does not bring forth butter, or that cranking on someone's nose won't make it bleed?

*I highly doubt you studied as many as you could find. *

You're the only one who has ever studied anything.

*this is a very good point if you don't think this is true then you probably have never heard of instinct. It is how most life forms react when in put in certain situation; this also happens in human nature. *

Like I said...

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Romans 3:23, KJV).

 

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Ta-da!

Tony,

I'm flattered that you now consider me a Bible scholar. Though I didn't need the Bible to tell me something so obvious. One only needs to look around (yes, with the eyes actually opened.)

But since we have so firmly established that the need for abortions will never go away, perhaps you could now qualify your thesis concerning the superiority of illegal abortion providers as opposed to legal ones.

(yes, and we seem to have conveniently shoved under the rug the fact that fetuses are not people.)

 

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Re: Ta-da!

*Originally posted by Bambi
I'm flattered that you now consider me a Bible scholar.*

I don't actually, but do go on.

*Though I didn't need the Bible to tell me something so obvious. One only needs to look around (yes, with the eyes actually opened.)*

Your argument appears to be leading us to the point where we agree on something, yet I came to that point with my eyes closed, and you with your eyes open.

That would mean that I, while fast asleep, am equally as intelligent as you are while wide awake.

*But since we have so firmly established that the need for abortions will never go away,*

Assertions of "firm establishment" don't equate to firm establishment.

What we have actually established is that people have a great hunger for murder, and when it is illegal to kill adults, people will kill their own children.

*perhaps you could now qualify your thesis concerning the superiority of illegal abortion providers as opposed to legal ones.*

The illegal providers tend to put the adults on a more equal footing with the children they are killing.

*(yes, and we seem to have conveniently shoved under the rug the fact that fetuses are not people.) *

My bad.
Let's bring it out into the open.

So, how do you claim that the child in a partial-birth abortion is not a person?
After all, they are out and often breathing, crying, etc when the abortionist/killer rams a corkscrew in through the soft spot and mushes it around in the brain until the crying and breathing stop.

Your idea of abortion seems to be that it is a clean antiseptic removal of a single cell, where the reality is that it is a bloody mess with pieces of body parts all over the place.

Just like real murder.

 

Just like a Christian

I just find it quite interesting that for, oh, the last five or so years, Christians objecting to abortion constantly hold up partial-birth when calling for an end to abortion.

This is kind of like noting that someone died when we stopped their heart on the operating table for a procedure and could not restart it afterward; and then you would turn and call for an end to all invasive surgeries.

This, of course, just the direct analogy.

I think you'll find public support for partial-birth abortion to be somewhat lower than, say, a first-trimester D&C or saline bath.

And, since we're on a political topic here, we might note that American Chrsitians have done little to improve the care of the unwanted children born into the world. If you're calling for the end of what seems like a bad solution, then shouldn't you have the alternative on the table?

Just remember that it's all in definitions: a girlfriend of mine had an "abortion" once; we removed a five month-old fetus that was underdeveloped, had no heartbeat, and was, as far as we could tell, the source of the infections plaguing the woman's body.

It's a far cry from partial birth, but if you ban "abortion", so too do you eliminate this procedure, and endanger thousands of women who will otherwise be forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term, or until the rotting corpse drops out of them, whichever comes first.

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Quit your melodrama, Tony1. In most people's cases, such melodrama hurts their chances of being perceived intelligently. However, when you broadcast such thick idiot-waves, people can't help but notice the transparency of your customized, greedy principles.

This is part of what happens when you separate humanity from the rest of the living experience: only by making humanity its own separate life-form can we ethically ban abortion. After all, it is the treatment against an organism inside one's body; only by separating humanity from the rest of life do we encounter the ethical truth that allows us to fight infection while banning abortion.

You want to help reduce abortions? Teach children to think for themselves, not merely obey. Then they're much more aware of their limitations and responsibilities. They will conform to your desires much better if they can understand the reasons for said desires. They will not conform to arbitrary enforcement of authority.

--Tiassa

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Tony,

You wish. What it means, is that the authors of the Bible had their eyes open, and you rely on their millennia-old observations rather than on observations of your own. Which explains why, using the Bible as your only source, you sometimes actually get something right.

You are indeed fast-asleep, dreaming an ancient dream.

Interesting twist on the issue, considering the only people I've ever heard of who kill their own children all claim to be Christians. They probably view themselves on equal footing with Abraham.

However, what I thought you have yourself strongly put using the Bible, is that people will "sin". Which means there will be incest, rape, child pregnancies, etc. Ergo, <u>the need</u> for abortions. So, actually give it a thought for once.

And what if the "murderer" is herself a child? Plus, what right do you have to tell a raped woman that she must bear and rear the child of her rapist? IMHO, that would give men a pretty good excuse for raping women to satisfy the need to procreate: if you're single and have no prospects of marriage, just rape someone.

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And what right do you have to tell a woman that she must die while carrying a nonviable fetus? And what right do you have to tell a woman that she must die in order to give birth? These, of course, are all cases of sheer necessity.

The cases of inconvenience and overpopulation are addressed simply by accepting that fetuses are not people.

No, actually. I agree that after a certain point the developing fetus must be considered a human being. I put that point somewhere in the region of the fetus developing a functioning neocortex. That, however, does not happen until quite late in pregnancy. So I accept it as more than safe to ban abortions over the entire third trimester (which I believe is currently the case) except in life-threatening or nonviable pregnancies.

Your turn.

 

Just like a pagan

*Originally posted by tiassa
I just find it quite interesting that for, oh, the last five or so years, Christians objecting to abortion constantly hold up partial-birth when calling for an end to abortion.*

It's because atheists and pagans argue that abortion is like removing a single cell, when an abortion like that has never been performed.
Partial-birth abortions are being performed, and the next step is full birth abortions.
Of course, that's been done already, and it's called euthanasia.

*This is kind of like noting that someone died when we stopped their heart on the operating table for a procedure and could not restart it afterward; and then you would turn and call for an end to all invasive surgeries.

This, of course, just the direct analogy.*

Like hell it is.
There is never any intention to "restart" the heart in an abortion.

*I think you'll find public support for partial-birth abortion to be somewhat lower than, say, a first-trimester D&C or saline bath.*

Public support, yes.
Medical, pagan and atheist support is considerably higher.

*If you're calling for the end of what seems like a bad solution, then shouldn't you have the alternative on the table?*

Yes, the alternative is to end the bad "solution," which is murder, not so incidentally.

*Just remember that it's all in definitions: a girlfriend of mine had an "abortion" once; we removed a five month-old fetus that was underdeveloped, had no heartbeat, and was, as far as we could tell, the source of the infections plaguing the woman's body.*

Why would you mention "heartbeat" as though that had nothing to do with the definition of alive?

*It's a far cry from partial birth, but if you ban "abortion", so too do you eliminate this procedure, and endanger thousands of women who will otherwise be forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term, or until the rotting corpse drops out of them, whichever comes first.*

It isn't abortion to remove what is already dead.
But you know that, of course.

*This is part of what happens when you separate humanity from the rest of the living experience: only by making humanity its own separate life-form can we ethically ban abortion. After all, it is the treatment against an organism inside one's body; only by separating humanity from the rest of life do we encounter the ethical truth that allows us to fight infection while banning abortion.*

In your case, I think the medical community should not interfere with any organism which might be ravaging your body as we speak, in the interest of making any incorrect ethical decisions.
Thus, the medical community would be absolved of any potential ethical dilemmas in "fighting" infections in your body, and you should be happy to know that the universe would be unfolding as it should.

*You want to help reduce abortions? Teach children to think for themselves, not merely obey.*

Miles ahead of you on that one.
You are the "perfect" example of what happens when someone is taught not to think.
Oddly enough, you are pro-abortion.

What a serendipitously perfect example of your point!

*Originally posted by Bambi
You wish.*

I am thrown aback by the forcefulness of your retort!

You did say that your eyes were open, and by extension, mine were closed.
It is a little late to explain how that is a point in your favor and not mine, when we both understand the same thing.

*Interesting twist on the issue, considering the only people I've ever heard of who kill their own children all claim to be Christians.*

I agree, that is an interesting twist.
Somehow all of the twenty million or so abortions performed since Roe vs. Wade are Christians emulating Abraham, who, incidentally, didn't kill his son.

*Ergo, the need for abortions.*

Well, I'm not one to argue that sinners will not attempt to justify more sin.
Most of the serial killers around have argued their "need" for killing.

*And what if the "murderer" is herself a child? Plus, what right do you have to tell a raped woman that she must bear and rear the child of her rapist? IMHO, that would give men a pretty good excuse for raping women to satisfy the need to procreate: if you're single and have no prospects of marriage, just rape someone.*

You're on an imaginative roll there, Bambi.
So, if there is one sin, rape, it must be followed by another, murder?

*And what right do you have to tell a woman that she must die while carrying a nonviable fetus?*

It isn't abortion to remove a dead fetus.

*The cases of inconvenience and overpopulation are addressed simply by accepting that fetuses are not people. *

Denial at its simplest.
Bambi's E-Z method of denial: simply accept the opposite.

*So I accept it as more than safe to ban abortions over the entire third trimester (which I believe is currently the case) except in life-threatening or nonviable pregnancies. *

What is actually the current case is that abortions are accepted right up to, and past, the 300th trimester.

It goes by different names, abortion, murder, euthanasia.

 

Tony1 for your infomation you are not sounding very bright right now
there are three trimesters notices the word tri- meaning three mester- meaning month

"your case, I think the medical community should not interfere with any organism which might be ravaging your body as we speak, in the interest of making any incorrect ethical decisions.
Thus, the medical community would be absolved of any potential ethical dilemmas in "fighting" infections in your body, and you should be happy to know that the universe would be unfolding as it should."

jeez tony1 if you feel this way maybe you should be the one getting anthrax, since you know the universe will "unfold then"

fact is tony you are throwing your acusations at people and blaming them for everything (kinda like Jerry Falwel(sp??). Then you yourself go out and preform these actions, while they are still againt your beliefs. One word says it all hypocrite.

you might want to spend some time on your reactions. Think then type

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I found an intresting article on how chritianity is used to controll and manipulate people.
IN PRAISE OF THE DEVIL


There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason, especially if she enters into spiritual matters which concern the soul and God. For it is more possible to teach an ass to read than to blind such a reason and lead it right; for reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed." "Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees it must put out of sight, and wish to know nothing but the word of God.
Martin Luther

And the Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed, because it is absurd. And He was buried and rose again; the fact is certain because it is impossible." "After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospel no need of research. When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe anything else; for we begin by believing that there is nothing else which we have to believe...
Tertullian



This article is written in praise of Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, or whatever you want to call him. I must first make it clear that I am not here claiming ontological status for the Devil; that is, I am not claiming that he exists in the sense that you and I exist. I am quite serious on a symbolic level in what I write but my statements praising the Devil and attacking Christianity, God, and Jesus are not to taken as implying the real existence of any of these supposed beings. The only one of these that I think one could reasonably believe actually existed is Jesus. It seems probable that there was a human being who was a political and religious leader at the time though it seems to me to be absurd to believe claims about his origin or divine nature. My praise of the Devil is not entirely (though it is mostly) serious, and it is to be taken on a purely symbolic level. My goal is to bring out the values and perspective of the Christian tradition and to demonstrate how it is fundamentally at odds with the values held by myself and all extropians and with the perspective that we share.
The Devil - Lucifer - is a force for good (where I define 'good' simply as that which I value, not wanting to imply any universal validity or necessity to the orientation). 'Lucifer' means 'light-bringer' and this should begin to clue us in to his symbolic importance. The story is that God threw Lucifer out of Heaven because Lucifer had started to question God and was spreading dissension among the angels. We must remember that this story is told from the point of view of the Godists (if I may coin a term) and not from that of the Luciferians (I will use this term to distinguish us from the official Satanists with whom I have fundamental differences). The truth may just as easily be that Lucifer resigned from heaven.

God, being the well-documented sadist that he is, no doubt wanted to keep Lucifer around so that he could punish him and try to get him back under his (God's) power. Probably what really happened was that Lucifer came to hate God's kingdom, his sadism, his demand for slavish conformity and obedience, his psychotic rage at any display of independent thinking and behavior. Lucifer realized that he could never fully think for himself and could certainly not act on his independent thinking so long as he was under God's control. Therefore he left Heaven, that terrible spiritual-State ruled by the cosmic sadist Jehovah, and was accompanied by some of the angels who had had enough courage to question God's authority and his value-perspective.

Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, of intelligence, of critical thought. He stands against the dogma of God and all other dogmas. He stands for the exploration of new ideas and new perspectives in the pursuit of truth.

God demands that we believe everything that he tells us, and that we do everything that he says without questioning. Destroy a tribe including the women, children and animals down to last one? (Joshua 6.21). Why of course. Wait a minute, this doesn't seem very nice. SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTIONING. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THE SAME UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS. Yes Sir, God Sir, whatever you say. See, here I am burning their books, pulling out their nails, torturing them for questioning Church dogma, banning the use of anaesthetic in child-bearing (since the pain is their just punishment for the acts of Adam and Eve). Help! I thought an improper thought! Help me to blind my mind God, help me to not see what my reason tells me. Let me repress thoughts of sexual desire, doubts about you and your orders, feelings of tolerance.

They call Lucifer the Prince of Lies. A lie is defined by the Christian as anything which contradicts the Word of God - as told to us by the Bible and God's representatives on Earth. If we accept this definition of a lie then we should praise lies. A "lie" is then a questioning of blind dogma. The "lies" of Lucifer are attacks on irrational beliefs, beliefs based on fear and conformity to authority. Of course we should not call these lies. They are temptations to think for ourselves, a call for independent thought, a plea for taking responsibility for our own thinking and our own lives. Praise Lucifer! Praise the pursuit of truth through rationality. God was right to tell us to not worship false idols, but he refrained from telling us that all idols are false, and that all worship is dangerous. Even our praise of Lucifer must not be worship of an idol, but rather an expression of our agreement with his value-orientation and his perspective.

God and his Godists hate Lucifer's call for rationality. Critical thinking digs at the very roots of God's and their power over our minds. Independent thinkers do not make good slaves. Lucifer is the Prince of Lies because he is an expert at helping us to be rational. He shows us how to use our intelligence and how to take responsibility for ourselves. We should emulate him in encouraging this trend in ourselves and in others. He needs help since he is working against the laziness and neuroticism of many humans. It's so much easier to just not try to think, to sit back and let other people tell you what you should do, what to believe, and where to give your money. Why, if I had to think for myself I would have to face the fact that I might be wrong. Horrors! I would have to think carefully about my life and the reality that I live in carefully and that would take a lot of work. No, it's much easier to have faith, to accept, to believe, to obey.

God also hates us to enjoy ourselves, If we let ourselves experience too much pleasure then we might lose interest in obeying him. We might start running our own lives to bring us positive rewards rather than directing ourselves to avoid his wrath. We might become focussed on pursuing the positive instead of avoiding the negative. That would result in the downfall, of religious and state authority, so God has to stamp out such tendencies. He hates Lucifer who keeps turning up and tempting us to have a good time, to enjoy our lives. Adam and Eve's sin was to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They dared to disobey a direct order which God expected them to obey without question, blindly. They acquired reason and intelligence, and an ability to decide for themselves the values that they would pursue. Ever since them humans have been uppity - always giving God trouble. Dammit, even some of the Catholics are questioning the Pope's infallibility. Well that's just tough God; some of us are going to do our best to see that humans continue to become even more difficult to handle - both by you and by your human followers on Earth - the religious authorities and the Statists.

God likes altruism, altruism understood as true self-sacrifice and not as giving up a minor value to achieve a more important one (which is just one aspect of rationality). If God can just get us all to be good altruists then we will be so much easier to control. Altruists do what they are told without complaint; a complaint would be based in self-interest; it would be a claim to live one's own life without having to direct it towards the lives of others or towards the interests of God or "the State". Lucifer perseveres in trying to point out to us that we have no reason to accept altruism. We can choose our values for ourselves, just as we can think for ourselves. Lucifer himself values the pursuit of happiness, knowledge, and new experiences. Most of all he values self-responsibility and independence even if that means that some people will not choose to value the things that he values. The extropians among us who share his perspectives and value- orientation should help him in his work.

God had a clever and nasty strategy to promote altruism and therefore obedience. He tries to get us to believe in Original Sin. He wants us to believe that we are born sinful, that we were evil and needed saving even before we had done anything. We need God and his agents to save us from Sin otherwise we will burn FOREVER and we will miss out on an infinite and perfect reward (though he never tells us just what this is). Our path to salvation lies in service to God, selfless self-sacrificial service to God and his dogma. Without the idea of original sin we might not be so careful to obey God since we might figure that we were living pretty well and would go to heaven anyway (foolishly failing to inquire what heaven is like). Fortunately for God, Original Sin guarantees that we will always feel under threat. We will always be unclean and in danger of suffering hellfire.

To make quite sure that our personal responsibility is destroyed, and that we put ourselves in God's hands for him to mould us as he wishes, God and his moronic minions repeatedly tells us that Jesus Christ is the Way and that he died for our sins. Redemption lies through faith and obedience. Notice what happens when Christ supposedly died for our sins. His act brought about our possibility of salvation. What I want to know is: how can someone else's act excuse me from anything? I am responsible for my own actions. Nothing that I do can take away the fact that someone else acting in a certain way, and nothing that they can do can absolve me of my own responsibility. Original Sin and salvation by Christ are both deeply offensive ideas to me and to all extropians who value individual responsibility.

In ending this discussion, I want to remind you that you are all Popes. You are all you own highest authority. You are the source of your action. You choose your values - whether you do so actively or by default. You choose what to believe, how strongly to believe, and what you will take as disconfirming evidence. No one has authority over you - you are your own authority, your own value-chooser, your own thinker. Join me, join Lucifer, and join Extropy in fighting God and his entropic forces with our minds, our wills, and our courage. God's army is strong, but they are backed by ignorance, fear, and cowardice. Reality is fundamentally on our side. Forward into the light!


In Praise of the Devil – 1998 Postscript

I receive email daily from readers of this essay. Many commentators misunderstand it, even though of those sympathetic to my message. So, before firing off that angry broadside, or that misplaced agreement, please allow me to make the following clarifications:

1: Yes, this is anger in this piece. Unlike my usual styles of highly analytical and/or positive, "In Praise of the Devil" (written back in 1989) lets out my ire at the irrational, controlling aspects of religion, especially Christianity. I don’t apologise for this. While I almost always prefer to develop positive alternatives, sometimes bad ideas and practices need to be poked at.

2. For those readers who don’t read the beginning, or else don’t read carefully, I will reiterate this: I do not believe that the Devil (or Lucifer) exists. I take Lucifer merely as a symbol of rationality and independent thought. Since I don’t believe that Lucifer exists, I am not calling for a new religion of Lucifer-worship, or following of Lucifer. By "praise Lucifer" I was only intending a tongue-in-the-cheek way of calling for a questioning of dogma, an affirmation of rationality and independent thinking. Following, obeying, and worshipping are not part of my own philosophy of life.

3. I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to think I’m a Satanist. If you are a Satanist, please don’t write to me in support. I find Satanism even more silly than Christianity. The former includes most of the irrational beliefs of the latter, but adds an adolescent need to rebel or shock.

4. You may get the idea that I’m completely anti-religious, or at least completely anti-Christianity. Any religion is a complex mixture of ideas, values, and beliefs. It would be absurd to declare myself totally against such a complex. What I despise in religion is the underlying way of thinking: irrational faith, dependence on dogma, and lack of personal responsibility and self-ownership. Different individuals will use their religion differently. Christianity, from a rational viewpoint, contains both good and bad aspects. Yet, some Christians use the system to do bad despite the good parts, and other Christians use it to do good despite the bad parts. Fundamentalists tend to be the worst because they have to take every word in the Bible at face value, including exhortations to stone to death various "offenders" such as homosexuals, and they find it hard to ignore the enormous amount of violence and even genocide promoted by their God throughout the Old Testament.

Even the relatively sensible parts of Christianity, such as Jesus’ pleas for more loving of one another, have the problem that they are expressed vaguely in the Bible and fail to address complicated issues. In addition, by accepting certain values on faith, it becomes difficult to rationally assess their proper applications and their limitations.

Aside from this essay, most of my philosophical and futurist writing has developed a positive alternative to religious approaches to life. My own Extropian-transhumanist views build on humanism while showing that our lives and futures are even more full of possibility than has been recognized by the humanists.

 

Tony,

I haven't see your critique of my definition of human life. As such, it would appear that you are the one in denial.

 

*Originally posted by some_guy01
Tony1 for your infomation you are not sounding very bright right now
there are three trimesters notices the word tri- meaning three mester- meaning month *

Try a new bulb, sg01, the one over your head, right by all my comments, is burned out.

Try figuring out what 300 trimesters works out to, and compare that with the age people would get euthanized at, and see if there is some similarity.

*jeez tony1 if you feel this way maybe you should be the one getting anthrax, since you know the universe will "unfold then"*

That comment was directed solely to tiassa, who cannot seem to figure out which is worse, killing a child or killing a bacterium.

*fact is tony you are throwing your acusations at people and blaming them for everything (kinda like Jerry Falwel(sp??). Then you yourself go out and preform these actions, while they are still againt your beliefs. One word says it all hypocrite.

you might want to spend some time on your reactions. Think then type *

Sounds like some pot-based reasoning.
Could you give an example of when I committed an abortion?
Or couldn't make up my mind about fighting infections?

"Hypocrite" is a word far too easily used in a discussion about morals, usually by those who are hypocrites.

Hypocrite means one who is under judgment, which would be you...

He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.
(Job 13:16, KJV).

Think, then type.

 

Imposible, with out religion!

Human life is precious! And Mankind was indeed created in the image of GOD his creator! And it is 'murder' to kill the unborn! And it is murder for euthenizing one because he/she is too old and unproductive to society! It's WRONG! As morality falls to the 'lies' of the so called 'wise-guys' in the peggon and atheistic peoples, your losing your own freedoms and don't really know it! Communism, Nazism, Paganism, shall all have their part in the HELL! and the LAKE OF FIRE! Prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels, and men that know not GOD for the pardoning of sins!! Human life is precious in the eyes of GOD, even thought we have fallen and wandered from the Truth to other gods, self, money, power, earthly carnal knowledge, (apart from GOD and His Holy Word) Fame, etc., will and has committed spiritual adultery and shall be soon judged! We put our trust in GOD and His Holy Word shall be our ROCK in which our lives are built on! The un-believers shall perish, you are in a sand pit, and thy mighty building on lies shall fall on it's face before GOD's truths stand unmoved and unchanged though out all of history! Babies unborn or born are quite human!

 

well i guess then we all will burn in hell because everyone is a hypocrite sometime in their life

 

The world would not be without 'religion'!

Tony1 for your infomation you are not sounding very bright right now
there are three trimesters notices the word tri- meaning three mester- meaning month *

Try a new bulb, sg01, the one over your head, right by all my comments, is burned out.

Try figuring out what 300 trimesters works out to, and compare that with the age people would get euthanized at, and see if there is some similarity.

*jeez tony1 if you feel this way maybe you should be the one getting anthrax, since you know the universe will "unfold then"*

That comment was directed solely to tiassa, who cannot seem to figure out which is worse, killing a child or killing a bacterium.
The pagonist cares only for her's and her's lively hood, but the unborn are real human life and and those that care not, and promote such a thing shall be put to Judgement of GOD!

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*fact is tony you are throwing your acusations at people and blaming them for everything (kinda like Jerry Falwel(sp??). Then you yourself go out and preform these actions, while they are still againt your beliefs. One word says it all hypocrite.

you might want to spend some time on your reactions. Think then type *

Sounds like some pot-based reasoning.
Could you give an example of when I committed an abortion?
Or couldn't make up my mind about fighting infections?

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GOD BLESS AMERICA!! WE still TRUST IN GOD!!!

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*Originally posted by Jay Renalsds
I am quite serious on a symbolic level in what I write but my statements praising the Devil and attacking Christianity, God, and Jesus are not to taken as implying the real existence of any of these supposed beings.*

The writer is therefore informing us that he is tilting at windmills known to be windmills to him.

*extropian*

New name for demon?

*'Lucifer' means 'light-bringer' and this should begin to clue us in to his symbolic importance.*

A symbolic point.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
(Matthew 6:23, KJV).

*Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, of intelligence, of critical thought. He stands against the dogma of God and all other dogmas. He stands for the exploration of new ideas and new perspectives in the pursuit of truth.*

Assuming that the story as given so far is true, Lucifer would already know all truth.
Therefore any new ideas and new perspectives are lies.

*SILENCE FOOL. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME. I AM GOD AND YOU MUST OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTIONING. ACCEPT WHAT I SAY ON FAITH. BURN THOSE WHO DARE QUESTION MY WORD. DESTROY THEIR BOOKS. SHUT DOWN THEIR SCHOOLS. TELL THEM THAT DISOBEDIENCE MEANS THAT THEY WILL BURN FOREVER AND EVER, IN UNIMAGINABLE AGONY FOR ALL ETERNITY, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL SUFFER THE SAME UNLESS YOU GO OUT AND TELL THEM THIS*

Whoa!
Sounded there for a minute that a point was being made.
Now it looks like the writer is merely pissed off at the Catholics and the cartoons they have created.

*They call Lucifer the Prince of Lies. A lie is defined by the Christian as anything which contradicts the Word of God - as told to us by the Bible and God's representatives on Earth. If we accept this definition of a lie then we should praise lies. A "lie" is then a questioning of blind dogma. The "lies" of Lucifer are attacks on irrational beliefs, beliefs based on fear and conformity to authority. Of course we should not call these lies. They are temptations to think for ourselves, a call for independent thought, a plea for taking responsibility for our own thinking and our own lives.*

It is so very difficult to tell the truth about lies, isn't it?
On the one hand, lies are false.
On the other they are indeed a call to think for yourself, i.e. make stuff up.

*God was right to tell us to not worship false idols, but he refrained from telling us that all idols are false, and that all worship is dangerous. Even our praise of Lucifer must not be worship of an idol, but rather an expression of our agreement with his value-orientation and his perspective. *

Here's another tough thing.
How do you tell someone not to worship anything, except Lucifer, without sounding like a complete idiot?

Gods says all idols are false therefore Lucifer is a false idol.
Oops, well a person would worship Lucifer, but not as an idol.
That would then end up meaning that worshipping Lucifer is worshipping a big zero, because L is an idol, and idols are bad which would mean L is bad but you say he isn't so it's OK to worship him but that would make him an idol which is bad, etc.

Round and round it goes.

*Independent thinkers do not make good slaves.*

No, but they make excellent fools.

*Lucifer is the Prince of Lies because he is an expert at helping us to be rational.*

If I wanted to prove that reason=falsehood in the mind of an idiot, I couldn't have said it better.

*No, it's much easier to have faith, to accept, to believe, to obey*

Of course it is. That's why there are more and more Satanists and Luciferians around.
Laziness rubs off.

It is easier to believe a lie than it is to find out the truth.

*They acquired reason and intelligence*

Which you earlier defined as lying.

*some of us are going to do our best to see that humans continue to become even more difficult to handle - both by you and by your human followers on Earth - the religious authorities and the Statists. *

Hey, Lucifer, you can't help bragging about your plan, can you?
Your place is in the pit, and then in the lake of fire.
The flames will be difficult to handle.

*We can choose our values for ourselves, just as we can think for ourselves.*

Where thinking for yourself is defined as 1) lying and 2) paraphrasing Lucifer, who would be "helping" you in your "rationality."

*He tries to get us to believe in Original Sin.*

Why would God want an "extropian" to believe in original sin?

*we will miss out on an infinite and perfect reward (though he never tells us just what this is).*

He never tells you what it is because it doesn't apply to you, it applies to people.

*We will always be unclean and in danger of suffering hellfire.*

True for "extropians" aka demons.

*In ending this discussion, I want to remind you that you are all Popes.*

All that for such a lame ending?
"You are all Popes."
What crap!
Is this the best you can do for "light," Lucifer?

*God's army is strong,*

Yes, it is.

*Forward into the light! *

You do sort of have a point there, the lake of fire will be throwing off light.

*I will reiterate this: I do not believe that the Devil (or Lucifer) exists.*

You don't matter. He believes he exists and that's all that counts.

*Originally posted by Bambi
I haven't see your critique of my definition of human life. As such, it would appear that you are the one in denial.*

You mean the "neocortex" thing?
No, sooner.

Your turn to go into denial.

 

*Independent thinkers do not make good slaves.*

"No, but they make excellent fools. "(Tony1)

So i guess what you are saying that every inventor; every person would decided to rewrite/recreate is a fool. Thats interesting because the person who translated the bible into another language would then be a fool. That would mean that you are following a fool because the person who translated it into english is, by what you said, is a fool.



*No, it's much easier to have faith, to accept, to believe, to obey*

"Of course it is. That's why there are more and more Satanists and Luciferians around.
Laziness rubs off."(tony1)


I don't think you have studied satanism. It does not mean what it sounds like. (for you info it does not mean worship of SATAN)

Every Santanist i have come to know is not lazy. 98% are healthy productive members of society.


*We can choose our values for ourselves, just as we can think for ourselves.*

"Where thinking for yourself is defined as 1) lying and 2) paraphrasing Lucifer, who would be "helping" you in your "rationality." "(tony1)

so in other words all devout christians speak the word of god. This is because you say that thinking for yourself is lucifers doing so in other words if you are devout then you can not think for yourself you are under gods will. Now to me that sounds like a cult. Like you are all his slaves. So everything Tony1 has said is gods will/doing. THATS SCARY! REALLY SCARY!!!!!

So in other words god made say this earlier
"Like I said, they're chicken-shit cowards."
Now to me that does not sound like a loving and caring god


That would make debate a constant battle between god and lucifer. Sorry to say but you Christians are losing horribly. After you convert all of us people who don't give a damn about religion. You still have to convert all of the jews muslims buddists and so forth. You know why, because like you said before they thought for them selves and so the are with lucifer.


*Lucifer is the embodiment of reason, of intelligence, of critical thought. He stands against the dogma of God and all other dogmas. He stands for the exploration of new ideas and new perspectives in the pursuit of truth.*

"Assuming that the story as given so far is true, Lucifer would already know all truth.
Therefore any new ideas and new perspectives are lies."

i guess a threesum is a lie then, (it defies god)
i'll think of something better next time right now i don't hve much time

before i rap up this give you a little info about me 15, virgin, straightedge, have druggy friends, have devout christan friends, have 3.8 gpa, looking forward to getting into USAFA- now i hope i have given you a better perspective on what kind of person i am

 

*Originally posted by some_guy01
So i guess what you are saying that every inventor; every person would decided to rewrite/recreate is a fool. Thats interesting because the person who translated the bible into another language would then be a fool. That would mean that you are following a fool because the person who translated it into english is, by what you said, is a fool.*

That would be a problem if I said what you said.

I didn't say, "all thinkers are fools."

"Independent" thinkers make excellent fools because they aren't independent at all.

*Every Santanist i have come to know is not lazy. 98% are healthy productive members of society.*

LOL!
That "healthy" thing is something that only brand-new satanists have.
In any case, laziness isn't merely physical laziness.
Satanists aren't what you'd call calm and peaceful dudes.
Their apparent industry is merely nervous tension and severe fidgeting.

*This is because you say that thinking for yourself is lucifers doing*

You really need to pay a little more attention.
The "ourselves" that are writing that article aren't people.

*So in other words god made say this earlier
"Like I said, they're chicken-shit cowards."
Now to me that does not sound like a loving and caring god *

Awwwww.
You're looking for warm fuzzies.

Woe to them! for they have started aside from me: they are cowards; for they have sinned against me: yet I redeemed them, but they spoke falsehoods against me.
(Hosea 7:13, LXXE).

*That would make debate a constant battle between god and lucifer.*

Not really.
Lucifer brags up a storm when he's talking to people, but he's a little different when he's around God.

*Sorry to say but you Christians are losing horribly.*

I read the end of the book, we win and you're ashes.

*before i rap up this give you a little info about me 15, virgin, straightedge, have druggy friends, have devout christan friends, have 3.8 gpa, looking forward to getting into USAFA- now i hope i have given you a better perspective on what kind of person i am *

Sure, thanks.

 

The Truth shall stand, forever! GOD's Word is Truth!

 

I dont recall anyone saying they hated jesus or god, just that they didnt believe in them.

 

"Satanists aren't what you'd call calm and peaceful dudes.
Their apparent industry is merely nervous tension and severe fidgeting. "(sir Loony)

put down that bible of yours, go out and do some real world research. you will find that the majoraty of santists are actual people with lives. Not some guy dressed in black locked up in a dark room praising satan. NO, ERASE THIS STEREOTYPE FROM YOUR HEAD. This


"Independent" thinkers make excellent fools because they aren't independent at all.

what makes them not independent since they think of their own ideas that are different than others?

A KID! THAT EXPLAINS THAT TO ME! Live and learn 'kid', there is more to come in your life times,

explains what to you?????