Determinism?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by mindless thinker, May 4, 2004.

  1. mindless thinker Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    I was just thinking and came upon this question. How do you disprove the theroy of determinism? Please keep in mind that I am young and am inxperienced in this sort of thing

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    . Any replies would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. a_ht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    158
    You can't. Since determinism has already *won*. Determinism has won in the sense that it has provided an answer to all objections. So, I still don't understand why this thread is going to cause an endless debate. Have an meaningfull life.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. mindless thinker Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    I was just considering different objections and wanted to see if anyone had some input. You're not very nice.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. moementum7 ~^~You First~^~ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    Determinism would be great!!!!
    Yah, it's determinism that gets me out of bed at 4:30am and go for a run.
    When my thoughts and feelings are tellings me how nice it would be to ljust lie in bed, to sleep in for just today.

    Yep, talk about determinism is all nice and dandy when you hide in philosophical forums. But in the real world it is not determinism.
    It's determination.
    Have you ever met anybody in real life that supports determinism whole heartedly?
    I gaurantee you won't find any one who has become successful or at the top of their game say,
    "Nope, I did't have to try at all. It just kind of happened."
    HAHAHAH, have to laugh at that.

    How does it feel when you consider "determinism"?
    Pretty fucking bland isn't it.
    Whether you think it is or isn't, hey, your right.
    Whether you think you can or can't, hey, your right.
    Ask what any one that is a full out beleiver in determinism where they are in life. What they have accomplished, and where they are headed.
    If any of these people have acheived or gained anything you consider to be of value then give this philosophy a shot.

    On the other hand, find someone who has acheived something, or become someone who you admire and find out what their beleifs are.

    Detyerminsts are at the bottom of the barrel, they can't help it.
    It's been determined, and theres nothing they can do about it.
    HAHAHAHA!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. moementum7 ~^~You First~^~ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,598
    One last rant.
    Every existent acts causally in accordance with its identity from electrons to brain neurons to conscious minds. The world is entirely determined in a physical sense, but the question of free will boils down to a question of context.

    Within the context of your mind, your consciousness is not a bunch of atoms held together in a particular way, but a perceptual and rational faculty that processes percepts into concepts from the lowest to the highest. This includes the creative process and problem solving. There is never something created from nothing -- there is no such thing as a divine inspiration; it is all a rearrangement of what was previously there.

    Both within the context of consciousness and the context of interpersonal relations, people do have free will. This means that they do make choices, they act on those choices, and they are responsible for those choices.
     
  9. mindless thinker Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    Haha interesting. Now this may sound moronic but bear with me as im new at this

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    . You said that there is never something created out of nothing right? So do you support the notion that all physical matter is just an alternate form of energy? A bit of topic, but im just curious.
     
  10. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    Just explain quantum mechanics to somebody!
     
  11. a_ht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    158
    and what would quantum mechanics do to save free will...
     
  12. mindless thinker Registered Member

    Messages:
    6
    Yea i fail to see how that disproves determinism at all. Do you understand what determinism is John? Just curious. I already decided that it could'nt be disproved(to the best of my knowlege) and was just wondering if anyone thought otherwise. If not it's ok, you all act like its something i believe. If you think it is, trust me it's not.
     
  13. Canute Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,923
    It seems that phsyical determinism is unfalsifiable. However freewill is also unfalsifiable. This suggests to me that we are in a muddle about this issue.

    The problem is that cause and effect is a deep and difficult issue. It seems reasonable that every physical effect has a sufficient phsyical cause. However we do not know yet whether every physical event has a necessary physical cause.

    It certainly seems ridiculous to think that human behaviour is entirely phsyically caused, since it would involve being able to predict the future (I'm going to go out in half and hour - how do I know that?) But even if conscious states are not wholly physically determined they may still be determined by previous states.

    It's a can of worms, and it gets tricky. For instance Pietre Abelard, the twelfth century Parisian teacher of logic and theology, asserted that for p to entail q the impossibility of (p and not-q) is not enough. In addition p must also require that q be the case. We cannot do this, so strict determinism is impossible to prove.

    This is why physical determinism is a metaphysical conjecture in the end, rather than a scientific issue.
     
  14. alain du hast mich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,179
    "Detyerminsts are at the bottom of the barrel, they can't help it"

    im guessing from the posts that determinists believe in free will, right?
    so all i can say to the quote is that nice guys finish last, determinsim would lead to a better society if EVERYONE did it, but whoever doesnt do it will take advantage of anyone who does do it
     
  15. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,574
    I'm more and more becoming a full believer in determinism.
    I don't believe in free will in the sense I don't believe we could have made different choices to the ones we did and I also don't believe weather or the universe is chaotic.
    History couldn't be different. How could it have been?
    People brush off determinism as soon as they realise they chose to do something. They don't realise that choice was determined by many factors, none of which they had control over.
    It was a combination of genetics and experience that crafted them into the kind of person that would make that choice. You might read this and then say 'ok I'll choose to flip this coin, I don't have to but I'm going to'.
    My post is just an addition to your experience, it is bonding to your previous experience and together they are reacting to the person you are (the person you are also obviously not being 'of your doing') which is deciding that choice.
    You have to think on a less simple level than 'I made a choice, therefore determinism is false'
    Give it a try.
     
  16. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    That was not the question.
     
  17. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    Yes I understand. However maybe there is a philosophical meaning to the word as well as scientific.
    To me: determinism is where every state of the universe in the future can be predicted if full knowledge of the present universe is at hand.

    What do u think it means?

    It disproves it by allowing an inherent randomness to the universe
     
  18. John Connellan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,636
    No, the exact opposite!
     
  19. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,574
    ok.
    I don't understand quantum physics. Where I'm at now I can't fathom the concept of something truely being random, fix me JC

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Messages:
    24,066
    If there is determinism then all religious people are basically fucked. God played a dirty trick on them. God knew beforehand that certain people would go to hell. Nothing they could do about it.

    History couldn't be different. The future can. If we look at biological systems we see that these are not predictable. Shouldn't they be predictable if they are determined? The reason that they are not predictable is that they depend on noise in the system. This noise is more or less random and influences events. The question is then if this noise is really noise, or a determined pattern of noise.
     
  21. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,574
    Can we see biological systems are not predictable or is it just that we can't predict them?
    What do you mean by noise?
    It seems every little event (including thoughts in your head) happened because of something that happened because of something that proceeded it and so on. I don't see how anything could alter what it was going to do. It seems it would have to be outside of reality orchestrating the universe to have that power.
    Like a fungai spore floating in the wind lands somewhere and starts growing. Could it have landed somewhere else? All the factors that lead to it landing there were determined by a string of events that were all independently determined by a string of events, there wasn't an invisible god saying 'hmm I think I'll put it... here... no wait here' and even if there was I would be questioning what events in his holy life lead up to that moment and inspired him to put it there.
    Its like there has just been a domino affect since the dawn of time that couldn't have happened anyother way. It branched out in an infinite web making it complex beyond comprehension but was still essentially predictable. If we started the universe over, making it exactly the same as it was in every single imaginable way in that split second before the big bang or whatever, and then came to the present day I don't see how it could be any different. I think I would be making this post as I am now.
    It does seem kind of outlandish to suggest the future was somehow encoded into the origin of the universe, but the alternative in my mind requires magic gods playing with the elements of the universe and interfering with their natural paths.
    And as I said, even then i can't imagine how even gods could have free will because something brought them into existence.
    I find it difficult to even picture the idea of free will these days.

    The future can be different from the past but can't be different from the future.
    I've seen that machine in the museum that has a sign next to it saying 'can you predict where it will go?' and I suppose thats quantum physics but the inherit flaw is, even if it moves differently every time and there is no pattern it was determined to move where it was going to move and is going to move. Even if for eternity it moved in infinite directions, its kind of beside the point of ultimate determinism.
    182920276319237
    There is no repeated pattern in those numbers, but I was always going to press those particular numbers in that order, anyone see my point?
    This is a brain straining subject, I'll give you that.
     
  22. Votorx Still egotistic... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,126
    Predestination only without the deity, is this what determinism is? That's one of the things I hate about these subjects, it can neither be proved nor disapproved, only argued continously. At the same time if we were to support predestination or, in this case, determinism (concluding that my interpretation of this subject is valid), it would also be denying free will, time travel and all religions based upon all knowing gods. Why? Since our future/destiny is planned out at birth, we can neither alter nor avoid our inevitable fates, this denies free will since we do not have a choice, only reason in our actions. Time travel cannot be done either, if we were to go into the past and change the future, it will be changing the fate of billions of people which, according to predestination/determinism, is impossible. And of course many religions like christianity are based upon the idea that we have free will, no free will = no religion. To determine if determinism/predestination is false we need to prove that either God, free will, or timetravel exist (consequential proofs). So now the question is, how do we prove these 3 subjects?

    P.S I apologize if I misinterpreted Determinism.
     
  23. Philosopher Wannabe Philosopher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    Dr Lou Natic couldn't have explained it any better.

    .

    I fully agree but this also brings up the question of if its continually branching out. It is not infinite yet, but it will continually branch out infinitely. Which means its branching out as fast as the universe is expanding (it just makes sense). Its only beyond the comprehension of human senses. Maybe the web is energy in infinite forms. Starting from the very basic to branch out to the complex. Like ideas are a form of energy, and life is another. Our minds could be in tune with the web of energy at certain points. Explains our ignorance well, our minds all have a different range of frequency, and those with the highest range are the brightest. All we have to do is figure the web out mathematically and let computers do the rest. And when we know the mathematics, when will our computers be able to catch up to the outer limits of the web. Or is this impossible, as computers can calculate no faster than the speed of the webs expansion. Like Einstein's theory of relativity in another form. Its not possible to catch up, but it is possible to run calculations on the outer limits of the web without starting from the basic, or beginning of the web. The gaps can be filled in later. I'm starting to ramble.

    But there is something inherently random about our universe. If there was no such randomness, it would not be known to us now. Random would not exist. It probably occured before our universe began. Like our universe is also apart of some web of energy that follows rules different from our own. Which also brings up the idea that all webs are interconnected to form an infinite web. With each new universe, a new web is created, to branch out infinitely. Like at each part of this web exists an atom. Which forms another web. And webs become interconnected. Lets take our universe for example. As the web in our universe expands, an atom is created that in it, exists another web. And in this web, there is an atom that our universe exists in. Creating a never ending loop, that never ends.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2004

Share This Page