I was just thinking about the Judas character. He was supposed to be very close to Jesus but sold him out to the romans and then hung himself. Bad, bad, bad. Is he a condemned character for this? He was acting out the predestinied fate of Jesus, who he loved with all his heart. Why did he hang himself if he did what he was supposed to do? Is he condemned by god for committing suicide? Jesus did know this was going to happen. He was ready for it. Did he also know Judas would die in the process? What would have been the consequenses if he had chosen not to betray Jesus? Did Judas have a choice in the matter?
If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus it would have just delayed the inevitable. Being predestined to do something doesn't allievate responsiblity for doing it. He still chose to betray Christ. Is he condemned for hanging himself? That's a hardly the issue. He pretty much sold his soul to the devil for those 30 pieces of silver. Jesus knew everything that was going to happen. It's not God's obligation to stop you from sinning. It's not like Judas was the only one who commited suicide during the life of Christ. Was Jesus obligated to stop them as well? Ben
What predestined him? Predestiny implies an inescapable fate. For someone who argues that there is no free will, you seem to be assigning the responsibilities thereof left and right. I tend to think that it shouldn't be God's obligation to create you in life with the intention that you should sin, but there you go. How many of those people betrayed Jesus' trust because God willed it? Your question is irrelevant and a dodge. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
We have a will. It's just not free. I can't do good unless God works in me to do good. Sinning is easy on both parts; I do what I'm inclined to do and God does nothing to stop it. "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." It's not a dodge. God has on a number of occassions raised up people who do vile things in order to show his glory. It's never been his obligation to show mercy to everyone. Ben
Hmmm ... When you say, what I'm inclined to do, do you mean whatever you feel like? You know, like Tony1's version of Christianity? Or do you mean whatever your natural organism is inclined to do? In the case of the former, this implies that God is without dominion, without knowledge, and without much of what is attributed to him in the Bible, rendering the Bible false. In the case of the latter, then you are behaving as God made you, and you're going to be punished anyway. Either way, the faith is a mere smokescreen for an evil racket. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"When you say, what I'm inclined to do, do you mean whatever you feel like?" Whatever your natural organism is inclined to do. I.e. Any of the options contrary to the will of God is naturally what I feel like doing. Only by the grace of God is my heart converted and I am able to be inclined to do the will of God. Which is the key to understanding why not having free will doesn't interfer with my responsibility for my actions. I don't suppose you see "motive" as integral in determining whether an action is evil or good do you? Ben
Heh, I still say he was set up. He was a stoolpigeon from day one. Just a poor pawn in the scheme of the holy trinity. Mmmm.. conspiracy theories Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dak By any Christian scheme even marginally resembling logic, we might take comfort in the idea that Judas is in Heaven, having faithfully served God's will. Like I said, though: marginally resembling logic. I used to wonder if that was too much to ask, to be even marginally logical, but life among Christians has advised me, resoundingly, that yes, it is too much to ask. A simple notion I've been pondering that might--might--shed some light on it: * Why did God create evil? Because without evil, there is no good; what would a Universe be without evil? It would be bland, good, and generally a pointless exercise. Thus, by the planned introduction of evil and the necessary racket it brings, God has introduced into the Universe a sense of purpose in lieu of an actual one. There is no rule that says the illusion of purpose bestowed upon us by God has to make any sense whatsoever. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Or is this really... ..a question about wishing to be relieved from personal responsibility? By claiming to be a "Judas" , that is was "Gods" intention that he would betray Jesus, and therefore not having any personal responsibility in the action of betrayal. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Of course, it is an act of God, and predestined in at least one of an infinity of universes, but it´s up to the individual to decide if it is to become real in that universe that you currently have your main focus in. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So , Judas most likely "betrayed" God several times , by making the "right " decision, by not betraying Jesus. But in that universe the betrayal ( against God) wasn´t a betrayal, it was an heroic act , it was Gods ultimate will. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Lalalaa.....I´m so smart! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!.....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"if I were Judas" I don't believe in free will. I think that pretty much answers your question. It's not like Judas made a out of the blue decision to betray Christ. His entire upbringing, everything that occured to him in life, led him up to it. Judas may have served God's will but then he did it for his own selfish reasons. So no, he didn't do good and he doesn't belong in heaven unless God forgave Him. Ben
Best solution: don't work for this god One of the problems of focusing so heavily on Jesus' redemptive gift is that we tend to forget about other people. Jesus was betrayed and sacrificed so that he could redeem humankind. Now, unless you want to assert that the whole passion, death, and resurrection of your Savior was an unnecessary farce staged for effect, I suggest you consider that without Judas performing God's will, nobody could be redeemed. Consider, then, that you're advocating the condemnation of the mundane soul responsible for empowering Jesus' transcension and the redemption resulting from that transcension. So consider this in your elected servitude: The man responsible for effecting Jesus' redemptive power is in Hell. It's fine with me if you choose an employer like that, but the smart people will avoid that kind of antithetical assumption. If you absolutely must submit to spiritual slavery, at least choose a god that isn't going to condemn you for doing His will. Make redemption possible, and then you go to Hell: what a crock. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by tiassa By any Christian scheme even marginally resembling logic, we might take comfort in the idea that Judas is in Heaven, having faithfully served God's will.* Of course, only people such as yourself favor marginal logic. The rest of us, preferring actual logic, would say that Judas was dead. *There is no rule that says the illusion of purpose bestowed upon us by God has to make any sense whatsoever.* Now, there's a unique argument. I assume that you are proposing that you are an example of the illusion of intelligence that makes no sense whatsoever. Thus you would be the counterpoint to actual intelligence. *Originally posted by Bebelina it´s up to the individual to decide if it is to become real in that universe that you currently have your main focus in.* Have you decided to focus on this universe yet? *Originally posted by tiassa Jesus was betrayed and sacrificed so that he could redeem humankind. ... I suggest you consider that without Judas performing God's will, nobody could be redeemed. * Nah. Jesus died to redeem us from all sins, including betrayal by a friend.
Wow, Tony1, that's pretty anemic, even for you Given the a priori foundation of that logic you're claiming ... I'll ignore your opinion on that count. You've demonstrated no real affinity for logic, just a nasty need to abuse the word. You almost pulled it off ... if only you hadn't switched to the condescending, you might have had a point. Oh, well. It was a nice try, Tony1. And you're right: intelligence need make no sense. Just look at you: the intelligent seem to make no sense to you whatsoever. Seriously: you were doing fine until the turnabout sentence. Then you had to go and get greedy and blow it out your ass. Would you like to try making a point that's applicable? Didn't think so. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Judas ... the fall guy Well Tony1? Is your God omnipotent? Is Jesus omnipotent? John 13:18 “I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.” Quote Tony1 "Nah. Jesus died to redeem us from all sins, including betrayal by a friend." Nah, Tony1 … Predestined by the necessary fulfilment of scripture, Judas is the fall guy. By no choice of his own. According to Jesus, without Judas, the rest of the story could not unfold. In truth, the act of betrayal was committed by Jesus. In love and compassion, a truly omnipotent God would not need to sacrifice a friend. Take care
Too cheap Tony... That wasn´t even a real insult...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Bobby..? Are you perhaps confusing me with Banshee? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by tiassa You've demonstrated no real affinity for logic, just a nasty need to abuse the word.* From someone who continually demonstrates his complete absence of understanding of logic, that means nothing. *the intelligent seem to make no sense to you whatsoever.* You make sense. *Originally posted by Stretch Predestined by the necessary fulfilment of scripture, Judas is the fall guy. By no choice of his own.* Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. (Matthew 26:14-16, KJV). Judas seemed to think he was making the decisions. *In love and compassion, a truly omnipotent God would not need to sacrifice a friend. * Sounds almost like a real sentence. What do "omnipotence" and "need" have to do with each other? And, what's this "sacrifice a friend" thing? Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (Matthew 27:3, KJV). If Judas was being sacrificed, why would he repent? If he really were being sacrificed, wouldn't the "correct" response be outrage, or a sense of betrayal? *Originally posted by Bebelina That wasn´t even a real insult* Aah, but a real messiah would have seen that it was.
